RAPIDLY moving problem: Yellowing, browning, wilting, then death (organic only grow)
Field&Stream
Member
LOL, it does look bad.
I've seen caterpillars do that, check your stems for little holes where they burrow in.
I've seen caterpillars do that, check your stems for little holes where they burrow in.
S
SeaMaiden
Hmm.. I guess you guys have never seen perlite float to the top of a loose mix, eh? That's what it is--perlite. It is but one of the reasons why I don't care for perlite, along with the facts that it offers no nutrient value, is non-renewable and unsustainable, plus it's not exactly cheap.
I will check for 'pillars, as they've decimated my pole beans in the straw bale bed, as well. DiPel has helped tremendously there, but I don't know that it would be appropriate for this situation.
The roots are unremarkable, they appear normal. No smells, and the soil inside the pots is uncompacted and also appears normal.
I see some mycorrhizal growth in some of the pots as well, though certainly reinoculation can't hurt and I have a FPE tea going at the moment, can toss in some myco inoculant today. I do also have 3% H2O2, as well as bleach and RE.
As you can see in the photos the plants are up on a floor made of OSB and painted white, been using it for several months (greenhouse hubby built). It's built on quite a slope, and while the cats can probably get up there, the only male we have doesn't really spray and wouldn't be likely to choose that area just to spray. A bear would similarly have to really hitch its ass up to urinate or mark the area, and I would think I'd smell it, no?
Hot enough to kill the roots is a definite yes, but they have displayed no other signs, at least not that I've experienced before. Again, why would it go plant by plant over a week, with no signs during the day and then, POOF! plant dead? That logic doesn't hold, but it was one of the first things I considered.
I think I owe you a glass of wine and/or a pound of good coffee.
In the meantime, no more plants appear to be affected at this time, so I will continue checking roots and moisture levels in the pots. I will use my FPE this watering because it's ready, dispose of the goners and get some Actinovate ordered. Or I might have to head down to Linden, that's a hell of a lot closer to me than Grass Valley.
What's also really niggling at me is the fact that it's only the cannabis that's affected, yet everything except physical location is essentially exactly the same as with my veggie starts. Whatever it is must be very specific. Or, it's someone who's got a beef with me and figured out where I have these plants, and who ignored the 4' tall clones I have in the beds already.
Many MANY thanks to all who've offered help. Truly appreciated.
I will check for 'pillars, as they've decimated my pole beans in the straw bale bed, as well. DiPel has helped tremendously there, but I don't know that it would be appropriate for this situation.
No, definitely not RAs, as you know I have had my experience with them. For all the trouble they cause, at least they take a LOT longer to kill.
The roots are unremarkable, they appear normal. No smells, and the soil inside the pots is uncompacted and also appears normal.
I see some mycorrhizal growth in some of the pots as well, though certainly reinoculation can't hurt and I have a FPE tea going at the moment, can toss in some myco inoculant today. I do also have 3% H2O2, as well as bleach and RE.
Aw, jeez... I never thought of that, but it seems that if someone were trying to get back at me by spraying then I would think drift alone would have done the same to my cukes, tomatillos, peppers or zucchini. And if that's the case, why would they hit the smallest plants first?
As you can see in the photos the plants are up on a floor made of OSB and painted white, been using it for several months (greenhouse hubby built). It's built on quite a slope, and while the cats can probably get up there, the only male we have doesn't really spray and wouldn't be likely to choose that area just to spray. A bear would similarly have to really hitch its ass up to urinate or mark the area, and I would think I'd smell it, no?
I have a problem with them crapping my my veggie garden, haven't yet had a problem with them spraying anything. Yet?Also check for cats, the bastard males around here came and sprayed my plants on a regular basis till I got my 22kg staffy, now they(cats) take a wide berth around my house.
Your leaves look very much like mine do after a cat has sprayed them and it doesn't take long at all for the plant to die.
Hope this gives you food for thought
I don't know. Do you really think you can tell everything you need to know about a soil mix just by looking at it? Because what you're looking at is perlite that's floated to the top and is stained by the stuff I feed, such as kelp and WC teas. I hope I know enough not to overwater, although this did begin when I had to have someone else care for the plants. The thing is, this girl is pretty smart and helps me every morning with my gardening, is observant and if she were overwatering, wouldn't it affect a lot more than just a couple of plants? The logic doesn't hold.What the heck is that soil? Looks like some terribly dense rocks...My guess is that weed ninja is right and it was caused by over watering + compaction. Soil just looks awful from here and number one culprit imo. Heat stressed as well but how hot was it? Hot enough to kill the roots? The whole grow is bad I think this is soil mix issue, but maybe pest. Really does look like plants that were pissed on though I have been drawing my name in the back yard for a week now looks just like the dead grass j/k heh
Hot enough to kill the roots is a definite yes, but they have displayed no other signs, at least not that I've experienced before. Again, why would it go plant by plant over a week, with no signs during the day and then, POOF! plant dead? That logic doesn't hold, but it was one of the first things I considered.
No, the perlite is stained. Either way, green microalgae is not harmful at all. One thing is for sure, I will NEVER start seeds in peat pucks ever again, I've had nothin' but problems with those things.
Fucking better NOT be a mountain lion! I can't run.
Son of a bitch, Joe... the pots are still heavy and the affected plants are not drinking. The apparently unaffected plants are still drinking, but not as much as I would expect given the heat and RH.
I think I owe you a glass of wine and/or a pound of good coffee.
Agreed.
I do use teas, and used one the week before we left. But if this were the case, wouldn't it affect everything I've used it on? And wouldn't it affect all the plants at around the same time? Either way, I think I'm going to have to go with this or what Sam discusses below.
Aspirin is one of my favorite palliatives, so I'm already stocked. I can burn the infected ones, I don't want to compost but when I took the pix I wanted to show what's left and hopefully show what progression I could. This is quite helpful, thank you.
EXACTLY what's happening here, it just goes overnight. Thank you!
It sure is expensive! I was debating purchasing it with my last PVFS order, and didn't because of its expense. I am now kicking myself in the ass, because I've had this feeling that *something* isn't going to work well for me this year. Time to bite the bullet and get it, simple as that. Getting it ordered, feeding the tea after doing the H2O2 drench because I think it's warranted here, then moving forward.
In the meantime, no more plants appear to be affected at this time, so I will continue checking roots and moisture levels in the pots. I will use my FPE this watering because it's ready, dispose of the goners and get some Actinovate ordered. Or I might have to head down to Linden, that's a hell of a lot closer to me than Grass Valley.
What's also really niggling at me is the fact that it's only the cannabis that's affected, yet everything except physical location is essentially exactly the same as with my veggie starts. Whatever it is must be very specific. Or, it's someone who's got a beef with me and figured out where I have these plants, and who ignored the 4' tall clones I have in the beds already.
Many MANY thanks to all who've offered help. Truly appreciated.
Damn well if it is not your mix and you are experienced with it like weedninja said someone either accidentally/intentionally put something on it that should not have been, heat killed it, or a root bugs damage finally caught up with the infected plants. I only had overnight problems when I had used chemicals on my roots to kill bugs and had serious root aphid and fungus gnat infestations causing me to over water since the plants could not keep up they did much like yours are doing. I was experienced as well, but not knowing I had bugs on my roots or seeing visible damage caused me to over water and poof plants died over night as a result of pythium/fusarium from the bugs and over watering.
It looks exactly like a root disease which can hit overnight as many of us have pointed out you just need to find the cause in my opinion.
Perhaps your case was NOT bug or chemical, but rather heat stress killing your roots causing the pythium/fusarium damage we are seeing. You know it was hot and you know what aphids look like and the damage they do + your experienced and know your soil. I am going with heat. Don't let it get you down we can't help nature sometimes I just had my first successful grow in a year this last round 3/4 of my plants almost every grow looked like yours do =( I will be popping in and out hope I can find some info to help you.
Curious does your girl know the temp of the water she was using to water and what time of day she did it? Really think the heat is the culprit rather than our wild ideas of mountain lions etc heh. Although many women are very closely related to mountain lions...
It looks exactly like a root disease which can hit overnight as many of us have pointed out you just need to find the cause in my opinion.
Perhaps your case was NOT bug or chemical, but rather heat stress killing your roots causing the pythium/fusarium damage we are seeing. You know it was hot and you know what aphids look like and the damage they do + your experienced and know your soil. I am going with heat. Don't let it get you down we can't help nature sometimes I just had my first successful grow in a year this last round 3/4 of my plants almost every grow looked like yours do =( I will be popping in and out hope I can find some info to help you.
Curious does your girl know the temp of the water she was using to water and what time of day she did it? Really think the heat is the culprit rather than our wild ideas of mountain lions etc heh. Although many women are very closely related to mountain lions...
S
SeaMaiden
I can't spread any more rep, 40Amps, but I've gone through joe's thread, and a few others, and I think it's a wilt disease. I don't have an ID book, and my microscope only magnifies to 400x, which I'm not sure is strong enough, but all other indicators, based on the information joe, Sam and Granger, et alia, have offered, lead me to conclude it's one of these diseases.
I've seen dozens of plants go in those nursery pots due to heat, and it starts out looking like a N- + underwatering. So you try to feed, and they get worse. You can repot into new soil but it won't work. I often wrap the pots in paper, but since this location is cooler than where I've previously started them off I felt there was no need, unless it got later in the season before they sexed.
Just as a precaution, however, I give heed to your feelings and will shade the pots of the living.
It had REALLY better not be a cougar. <gulp> I'm not kidding, I can't run and would be easily caught and nommed upon.
I've seen dozens of plants go in those nursery pots due to heat, and it starts out looking like a N- + underwatering. So you try to feed, and they get worse. You can repot into new soil but it won't work. I often wrap the pots in paper, but since this location is cooler than where I've previously started them off I felt there was no need, unless it got later in the season before they sexed.
Just as a precaution, however, I give heed to your feelings and will shade the pots of the living.
It had REALLY better not be a cougar. <gulp> I'm not kidding, I can't run and would be easily caught and nommed upon.
FIRST thing I thought when I saw the pics was this:
You can look for discoloring in the stem close to the rootball if you're willing to sacrifice one of the mostly-dead ones...
This comes up OFTEN in outdoor plants in my area. Too thick a layer of compost coupled with either/or high temps and high moisture creates a breeding ground for it, we pull hyacinths and rhodys weekly...
You can look for discoloring in the stem close to the rootball if you're willing to sacrifice one of the mostly-dead ones...
This comes up OFTEN in outdoor plants in my area. Too thick a layer of compost coupled with either/or high temps and high moisture creates a breeding ground for it, we pull hyacinths and rhodys weekly...
I had my plants suffer some weird wilting problems like that too. Like you, I'm an organic grower with more than one grow under their belt, and yet it took me very by surprise.
My suspicion was pythium, or maybe some sort of bugs. Turns out it was both. Bugs brought in the pythium, which was exacerbated by uneven watering on my part.
Here is what I did anyway:
I started by thinking about how the soil biology was out of whack. I had tried treating with AACT at several points up until they got sick. I decided there was something living in the soil that was making them unhappy. So I decided to just go nuclear; kill everything in the rhizosphere that isn't especially hardy.
I started with running 3x the volume of the grow bags(about 8-9 gallons) of water from the shower head through the medium. The chlorine surely massacres a large portion of the micro-herd.
Following this, I put a couple tsp of H202 diluted into a 32oz gatorade bottle of water. I follow this by running a bit of dechlorinated water through the soil till there's a little run off.
Then I sprinkle about 1tsp of Pond Zyme all around the top of the soil. Then I use a powerful sprayer bottle to soak it in with a fine mist. After that is done, I fill that 32oz bottle with dechlorinated water and soak in the enzyme really well.
After this I use a 32oz solution of AACT(1 part tea to 3 parts dechlorinated water). You have to time the preparation of this so it's ready when you are.
I called it "rebooting the soil", but I don't know for sure what parts were important and not. This requires a lot more study. Maybe it was just the enzymes, but whatever happened, the plants have not just turned around, but are looking beautiful. I did all this somewhat on desperate impulse. Maybe there'll be some info of use for you here....
My suspicion was pythium, or maybe some sort of bugs. Turns out it was both. Bugs brought in the pythium, which was exacerbated by uneven watering on my part.
Here is what I did anyway:
I started by thinking about how the soil biology was out of whack. I had tried treating with AACT at several points up until they got sick. I decided there was something living in the soil that was making them unhappy. So I decided to just go nuclear; kill everything in the rhizosphere that isn't especially hardy.
I started with running 3x the volume of the grow bags(about 8-9 gallons) of water from the shower head through the medium. The chlorine surely massacres a large portion of the micro-herd.
Following this, I put a couple tsp of H202 diluted into a 32oz gatorade bottle of water. I follow this by running a bit of dechlorinated water through the soil till there's a little run off.
Then I sprinkle about 1tsp of Pond Zyme all around the top of the soil. Then I use a powerful sprayer bottle to soak it in with a fine mist. After that is done, I fill that 32oz bottle with dechlorinated water and soak in the enzyme really well.
After this I use a 32oz solution of AACT(1 part tea to 3 parts dechlorinated water). You have to time the preparation of this so it's ready when you are.
I called it "rebooting the soil", but I don't know for sure what parts were important and not. This requires a lot more study. Maybe it was just the enzymes, but whatever happened, the plants have not just turned around, but are looking beautiful. I did all this somewhat on desperate impulse. Maybe there'll be some info of use for you here....
Looks like soil problem other than fungus.
Could be fungal wilt though. Easy way to check for this is to take one of the worst looking ones and cut it off near the base. Look for tell-tale brown/tan/dark ring where fungus has invaded vascular tissue.
EDIT: didn't see Lifebreather already suggested this.
Could be fungal wilt though. Easy way to check for this is to take one of the worst looking ones and cut it off near the base. Look for tell-tale brown/tan/dark ring where fungus has invaded vascular tissue.
EDIT: didn't see Lifebreather already suggested this.
Maiden,
Concerning cougars, viciously gouge the eyes.
Here's a great source. Quite a few great products to check out. Also loads of info with Univ. studies, etc.
http://www.bioworksinc.com/index.php
Good luck. This thread is textbook on the value of this forum, and how it should work, and often does. -granger
Concerning cougars, viciously gouge the eyes.
Here's a great source. Quite a few great products to check out. Also loads of info with Univ. studies, etc.
http://www.bioworksinc.com/index.php
Good luck. This thread is textbook on the value of this forum, and how it should work, and often does. -granger
Hi again SeaMaiden
In my earlier post I said it didn't look so much like fungus as soil problems. I was in a hurry so I didn't elaborate, but I have more time now.
It looks like the leaves are crispy, which I associate with lockout. Plants with fungal wilt tend to be, well, wilted, without the crispy.
If you cut one of them to check for the dark ring that indicates fungus, and there is no sign of it, dump the soil and break the rootball up and smell it. I know you already smelled the rootballs from what you said, but you need to actually break it up and smell the interior.
With organic soil, if there is too much uncomposted/undercomposted amendment, combined with overwatering and heat you can have problems. The uncomposted stuff is not so bad on its own, but overwatering can make for anaerobic fermentation of the stuff. The acids produced (mainly lactic acid) can lower the pH by 4 or 5 points overnight. This locks out nutes and makes for plants that look like yours. The reason to smell the inside of the rootball is that the outside is exposed to the air, it is the waterlogged inner part that can support anaerobic decay.
In my earlier post I said it didn't look so much like fungus as soil problems. I was in a hurry so I didn't elaborate, but I have more time now.
It looks like the leaves are crispy, which I associate with lockout. Plants with fungal wilt tend to be, well, wilted, without the crispy.
If you cut one of them to check for the dark ring that indicates fungus, and there is no sign of it, dump the soil and break the rootball up and smell it. I know you already smelled the rootballs from what you said, but you need to actually break it up and smell the interior.
With organic soil, if there is too much uncomposted/undercomposted amendment, combined with overwatering and heat you can have problems. The uncomposted stuff is not so bad on its own, but overwatering can make for anaerobic fermentation of the stuff. The acids produced (mainly lactic acid) can lower the pH by 4 or 5 points overnight. This locks out nutes and makes for plants that look like yours. The reason to smell the inside of the rootball is that the outside is exposed to the air, it is the waterlogged inner part that can support anaerobic decay.
S
SeaMaiden
Not crispy, soft. I thought they looked crispy and then I touched them and saw that they're wilted.
I will do the rootball thing again because I cut open the stems on three of those that still had green crowns, and the stems showed no signs of fungus or decay.
In the meantime, I considered doing magic's reboot, but I felt that it's more important to get good microbes going more strongly in there than anything else, so I've gone with another tea application along with adding a dry myco product.
So far no more progression, so that's something! I'll feel better once the Actinovate arrives, because the season ain't over yet.
I will do the rootball thing again because I cut open the stems on three of those that still had green crowns, and the stems showed no signs of fungus or decay.
In the meantime, I considered doing magic's reboot, but I felt that it's more important to get good microbes going more strongly in there than anything else, so I've gone with another tea application along with adding a dry myco product.
So far no more progression, so that's something! I'll feel better once the Actinovate arrives, because the season ain't over yet.
I'm pretty sure the Pond Zyme doesn't do anything bad to the herd. If you have any friends with ponds, they may well have some. A single canister will last a grower years.
S
SeaMaiden
I don't think so, either, but the H2O2 will kill everything off.
Two more plants hit overnight, pulled the root balls apart, and I can't smell anything. That's not to say that there absolutely isn't a smell, because I have a diminished sense of smell (rattlesnake bite). However, when it comes to stuff like bad anaerobic smells, I can usually smell them. Roots don't look very good, flattened and brown, not fat, round and white. No feeder/hair roots that I can make out. The leaves are soft and wilty, not crispy, on the newly affected plants. The leaves on the ones that have been in this condition for a day or more are crispy.
I know one person with a pond, in SoCal. I may as well get it myself, but at this point I have only a few young, unsexed plants left, so I'm going to have to source cuts from friends either way.
I'm still rather puzzled as to why absolutely no other plants that have been put in this soil have been so affected, because it does seem to me that it's the most likely source of the problem, but not having precisely nailed it I still feel uneasy.
Two more plants hit overnight, pulled the root balls apart, and I can't smell anything. That's not to say that there absolutely isn't a smell, because I have a diminished sense of smell (rattlesnake bite). However, when it comes to stuff like bad anaerobic smells, I can usually smell them. Roots don't look very good, flattened and brown, not fat, round and white. No feeder/hair roots that I can make out. The leaves are soft and wilty, not crispy, on the newly affected plants. The leaves on the ones that have been in this condition for a day or more are crispy.
I know one person with a pond, in SoCal. I may as well get it myself, but at this point I have only a few young, unsexed plants left, so I'm going to have to source cuts from friends either way.
I'm still rather puzzled as to why absolutely no other plants that have been put in this soil have been so affected, because it does seem to me that it's the most likely source of the problem, but not having precisely nailed it I still feel uneasy.
One of my grow bags got hit a lot worse than the others. I think sometimes substrate doesn't mix up fully somewhere, or bugs out-compete predators in one planter.
My recommendation if you're emptying the planters anyway would be to find a clean place to pile it outside, like on a deck or something on top of a tarp. Put netting over it or otherwise shield it if there's cats or dogs around though. If you run a bunch of dechlorinated water through it, or let it get rained on really well, it should improve the soil. My mother digs up compacted areas sometimes and sets the dirt out in the fresh air for the few days. Makes a world of difference. There's one area of the yard that floods, so the ground compacts there from all the silt.
Is there a lot of food in the soil? From my understanding, elevated temps plus too much food can mean the aerobic bacteria starts to die back(from their own wastes I think). I know that some of the people who developed the OBBT concept decided in the end that using a lot of food in the soil can lead to some problems, especially in mixes that retain water.
Diamataceous earth is fairly cheap. Napa #8822 floor dry is only like 8-10 dollars for a 40 pound bag, and it won't float out like the perlite. Plus when it's dry, it hurts bugs. I just have a feeling that it's not breathing well enough in your soil. I've added a bunch of coir and 8822 to my soil bin to combat this problem personally. Good drainage is more important than tons of food.
My recommendation if you're emptying the planters anyway would be to find a clean place to pile it outside, like on a deck or something on top of a tarp. Put netting over it or otherwise shield it if there's cats or dogs around though. If you run a bunch of dechlorinated water through it, or let it get rained on really well, it should improve the soil. My mother digs up compacted areas sometimes and sets the dirt out in the fresh air for the few days. Makes a world of difference. There's one area of the yard that floods, so the ground compacts there from all the silt.
Is there a lot of food in the soil? From my understanding, elevated temps plus too much food can mean the aerobic bacteria starts to die back(from their own wastes I think). I know that some of the people who developed the OBBT concept decided in the end that using a lot of food in the soil can lead to some problems, especially in mixes that retain water.
Diamataceous earth is fairly cheap. Napa #8822 floor dry is only like 8-10 dollars for a 40 pound bag, and it won't float out like the perlite. Plus when it's dry, it hurts bugs. I just have a feeling that it's not breathing well enough in your soil. I've added a bunch of coir and 8822 to my soil bin to combat this problem personally. Good drainage is more important than tons of food.
S
SeaMaiden
My indoor area is currently filled with gym equipment. So, I'm not specifically opposed to indoor, except that I find it much more work than outdoor. This year we're all solar, so as soon as the area is cleaned out I'm going to be doing a little revamping of my vegging and flowering areas, maybe a little reconfiguring. But it's just not ready at this time.
The soil in the pots is so small a volume that there's no point in going to all that trouble, I'll just dump it somewhere.
TripleDawg had suggested looking around my area for plants in a similar state, which I've done. I'd already noted a HUGE madrone down the road that's clearly dying, it looks awful. But now I'm looking around more closely, and there is something randomly killing mature plants around here. It's not the county's Round-Up spraying, as that ALWAYS is only by the road and the death goes from road-side to about 3' high and 4' away from the road edge.
And yeah, IMO they look worse than hammered dog shit. What survives survives, otherwise I'm going to have to lean on my friends this year. In the meantime, my veggies are chugging right along. I've planted a shit-ton of Romanesco cauliflower (fractal cauliflower/broccoli) and it's taking off along with the Brussels sprouts and white cauliflower. And the squash? Oh YEAH. My beans? Being eaten to hell, but NO ROT.
The soil in the pots is so small a volume that there's no point in going to all that trouble, I'll just dump it somewhere.
TripleDawg had suggested looking around my area for plants in a similar state, which I've done. I'd already noted a HUGE madrone down the road that's clearly dying, it looks awful. But now I'm looking around more closely, and there is something randomly killing mature plants around here. It's not the county's Round-Up spraying, as that ALWAYS is only by the road and the death goes from road-side to about 3' high and 4' away from the road edge.
And yeah, IMO they look worse than hammered dog shit. What survives survives, otherwise I'm going to have to lean on my friends this year. In the meantime, my veggies are chugging right along. I've planted a shit-ton of Romanesco cauliflower (fractal cauliflower/broccoli) and it's taking off along with the Brussels sprouts and white cauliflower. And the squash? Oh YEAH. My beans? Being eaten to hell, but NO ROT.
hereigrow
Member
Food>reefer just saying. Damn i feel for you; gardening woes stress me out until i find a solution. I have had gardens on roof tops get their roots fried from 100+ degree weather and your garden resembles thst effect . Have you thought about a greenhouse to try and curve the high temps?
Rusty Trichome
Member
Black pots, 90 degree's, direct sun...looks to me like it adds-up to fried roots. Only takes a couple hours to do permanent damage. ALWAYS protect the rootball from direct sun, and using black pots compounds that need.
I've been growing in the desert for about a decade, so yes...I do have experience with that condition.
I've been growing in the desert for about a decade, so yes...I do have experience with that condition.
Rusty Trichome
Member
CRAP. Didn't even see the second page of responses. Sorry to those that already mentioned the heat thing. My bad.
Old, blind, and likely baking in the desert sun....
Old, blind, and likely baking in the desert sun....
