Questions about going organic.

[CrookedEye]

I have seeds started that were started in a cheap miracle grow potting soil, in the plastic party drinking glasses. Those were grown for a month or so until rootbound, just watered with plain ph 7 or so water, then mixed into B'cuzz soilless mix, which is 70% sphagnum peat and 30% perlite, with trace elements. I added slightly more perlite to get about a 60/40 mix of sphagnum and perlite and transplanted them into 3 gallon pots. They were watered the first time with hygrozyme and PH adjusted water to saturate the soil, and the runoff water was measuring around 5-6 PH, with the color test kit. Further watering was adjusted to a PH of about 8 with PH up from GH, to try and bring the PH up a bit. I was wondering should I keep adjusting the PH high until the runoff comes out more near 6-7 PH?

Also, I have been wanting to mix my own soil and go totally organic and just water with teas as needed. I am going to start mixing my things like in burnones sticky on organics for beginners, but was wondering if it was too late to start using all organic amendments and get a living soil before beginning to flower the current plants (they could be flowered as soon as I am sure the clones taken from them root, but can wait to maximize this first round if needed)? It is time to start giving them some food, so I was wondering if I should just buy an organic line of nutrients and begin using those for this round, and then use the teas for the next round when I have mixed my own amendments and began a living soil before transplanting? Or can I start watering with organic amendments and maybe some teas with dolomite lime (or other good PH buffer like worm casting teas) to start helping buffer the PH and get a living culture going so I can finish these organically without having to buy an organic nutrient line? I wouldn't be terribly upset to use something with some inorganic, readily available nutrients if I needed to, but would love to have a fully organic grow, because it seems to almost always come out with the best smells and flavors.

I have a good bit of experience using organic nutrient lines and adding fungi's, bacterias, enzymes, and microbes with store brought products and have used hydro nutrients like pbp and flora nova, but haven't ever mixed my own soils, other than adding perlite, or mixing coco and perlite. I like the idea of not having to worry about PH as much and not having to worry about measuring ppms and flushing as much, as well as the organic results, but don't want to jump into things headfirst without a reliable plan because I am just getting started back up after over a years break and would like to be sure I get the results I was used to.

I am open to any suggestions on doing proper organics and would like to keep costs in mind as I am on a budget this round, but am not against using a ready made line of nutes for this first round, for ease and familiarity. Thanks for all the help guys! BTW this first round is gonna be mostly early pearl X C-99 started from seeds. Got some elite clones and exciting seed crosses started for the next batch that are going all organic with the method posted by burnone..

Help me max out this first one folks!! Thanks in advance for all the help/suggestions!

 

[JackTheGrower]

Well there are a few sticky threads to read..

Organic gardening is a skill that develops in time. Basically using natural materials with the help of mother nature to grow our crops.

Do you compost?


Jack

 

[CrookedEye]

No I haven't started composting yet. I have read just about every sticky in the organic soil and organic hydro section, and have decided what to do for the next round. I have a good understanding of what needs to be done, I am just wondering for the ones I started without adding the organic amendments, if I can just start using the organic ingredients on the medium I am using by using teas, or should I stick to a more complete organic nutrient line, until I can start mixing up my own soil per burnone's sticky on organic gardening for beginners?

I want to go fully organic, but I didn't start with one of the recipes recommended, so am wondering if it's too late for the ones I have started, to begin just using organic teas for feeding, or should I stick to something that has everything needed to complete the grow in an easily store bought bottle? I didn't add the dolomite lime to the soil, which is why I am experience some PH issues, nor did I use worm casting to supply humates, so my medium is probably mostly inert, without the biological activity in the organic soils to break down the nutrients easily and without the organic ph buffers, so I don't want to go buy a bunch of organic things if it is not gonna be ready to use by the plants for when I flip em over. I also don't want to use organic teas, if I am going to need to adjust the PH with inorganic ingredients that might harm the beneficial microorganisms in the organic teas.

Also, I have well over a decade of cannabis growing experience, but have used mostly store bought nutrients since I began, so I do have a good relationship with the plant and understand it's basic needs, I am just now getting started with full organics and getting to understand the microbiology involved in the organic gardening, so I don't need really deep explanations on growing aspects, just more responses geared towards the organics.

I will follow a tried and true recipe with the seedlings/clones I have starting now, but for this first batch that is already started, I am just wondering if it's too late to try those fully organic and wondering if a nutrient regimen that I can buy wouldn't be the best bet for those? Most of the lines are not fully organic, but I have read about EJ, metanaturals which I even used once, and a few others that are out there. Foxfarm is simple and although the tigerbloom isn't fully organic, it might be a good choice for finishing the ones I have vegging already, while gathering the amendments and things for the organic grow of the seeds/clones I have just started. Just wondering opinions or ideas on that, as well.

 

[JackTheGrower]

For a beginner the amount of information that is available here is overwhelming.

Simply, there is the soil food web http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_food_web.

That's the basic idea of Organic growing. However for most indoor folks we are most likely limited to the raw materials and the microbiology.

In the most simple terms an Organic grow is one that supports the soil food web (IMO (tm))

Many use products derived from materials considered organic. These provide the ions and trace elements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer

I'm on the side of Organic is the biology providing the ions rather then applying some ready to go product..

I suspect I'm a little of both actually when it comes to adding kelp and fish emulsion.. Still I'm adding to a biologically active soil.

Anyway it's on you to decide what style you want to do.. That's the the most important thing is you like what you are doing.

My system was a lot of work to construct ( and I'm still working on it ) but it makes me happy.

Soil you asked.. I'm betting most if not all of the mixes presented are useful. The important things are the sources of macronutrients and micronutrients.

As for nutrient programs? I don't know enough about any of them to advise you what to choose.. I'll add bulk raw materials when I feel the soil needs more..

Anyone have a feeding recommendation?

 

[fisher15]

I've had good results with Age Old grow, havn't used their bloom. Also Peacefull Valley's Omega line is solid.

 

[CrookedEye]

What is a good organic product for raising the PH in the soil, that I can water my potted plants with? My runoff is coming out with a low PH and I don't wanna use GH's PH Up in organics if it could harm the organisms in the soil. And is it too late to use organic teas for my soil, in which I didn't use one of the organic soil mixes posted? My mix in my already transplanted seedlings is probably 60% sphagnum peat moss, and 40% perlite, and whatever trace elements the B'cuzz mix comes with. There were no organic amendments mixed into the soil before using and it has only been watered once with PH adjusted water (PH up) and hygrozyme. Wanting to start feeding but can't decide if a simple organic nute liine is what I should use or if I can use the teas on a soil that is not biologically active already. And thanks guys for the responses, I'll check out the nutrient lines you mentioned fisher15 and I am encouraged to do the same type of letting nature do the work for me Jack.

 

[maryjohn]

What is a good organic product for raising the PH in the soil, that I can water my potted plants with? My runoff is coming out with a low PH and I don't wanna use GH's PH Up in organics if it could harm the organisms in the soil. And is it too late to use organic teas for my soil, in which I didn't use one of the organic soil mixes posted? My mix in my already transplanted seedlings is probably 60% sphagnum peat moss, and 40% perlite, and whatever trace elements the B'cuzz mix comes with. There were no organic amendments mixed into the soil before using and it has only been watered once with PH adjusted water (PH up) and hygrozyme. Wanting to start feeding but can't decide if a simple organic nute liine is what I should use or if I can use the teas on a soil that is not biologically active already. And thanks guys for the responses, I'll check out the nutrient lines you mentioned fisher15 and I am encouraged to do the same type of letting nature do the work for me Jack.

how are your plants looking? if they look good never mind.

 

[CrookedEye]

They started yellowing a little bit, possibly from PH trouble or because I started them in lil cups of miracle grow potting soil or maybe they just need food, as they have been growing for a month or so. They had a litlle bit of crispiness on some lower leaves but that started when I was away for a few days and they weren't getting checked for water and things. Since this transplant they have started perking up, and all the new growth seems to really be taking off towards the light (but maybe a lil bit lighter green than I'd like). They only were transplanted about 3 days ago. I measure the runoff when using bubbled tap water and hygrozyme with a PH just slightly above 7, and it was coming out between 5-6 which is the most accurate I can get without a PH pen, so I added some PH up for the first watering to get the water up around 8 or a lil higher, but the runoff still came out around 5-6, so wasn't sure if I should keep watering them with higher PH water or just try and stick closer to 6-7, the PH that the tap comes out to with the hygrozyme added. They may need a lil Cal Mag+ cause I am not sure how much is in the tap water, but also didn't know if I should use that if i am trying to go all or mostly organic..

Edit: was thinking about using some liquid karma and some EWC tea for a watering to add some nitrogen and start getting some organic microbes workin in the soilless mix, but wasn't sure if I should do that or just start with an organic veg nutrient line.

 

[moonymonkey]

one of the reason,s runoff still came out the same,after adjusting the ph is because of the amount or volume of soil in 3 gallon pot has a buffering efect on soil ph....one reason you can run i higher soil ph in a larger volume,cuz of drainage .....moon/give back from which you have takenxxxxxx

 

[neongreen]

It sounds as though you are in the same boat as me, but a few weeks behind me. It's also my first organic grow, and I also used my own "experimental" soil mix.

Basically the soil was not well amended, so my plants started getting deficiencies/yellowing.

The best thing to do would be to make up a mix as close to B1's instructions and as soon as you can, and transplant into it. I wouldn't even bother letting the soil mix cook. Just get your plants transplanted.

Good luck.

 

[CrookedEye]

I understand that, moonymonkey, so should I continue to water with a higher PH until the runoff comes out where I want the PH of the pot to be? And if so, what kind of organic PH up could I use? Would it be good to add dolomite lime to my water to help buffer it as well as worm castings, since I didn't mix them into the soil already? Thanks for the replies!

Also Neongreen, I wasn't planning on using the organic amendments at first, was just going to go buy a nice nutrient line, organic or mostly organic, then do as I usually had, but I remembered I had an account here from years ago, so I signed in and began reading all the stickies on organic gardening and am going to use the method in the organics for beginners sticky, but have already transplanted my current ones into 3 gallon pots without the amendments and they just began perking up nice, so I don't want to reshock them. That is why I keep trying to figure out what I should do with these. I suppose after the weekend I could probably pick up the things needed and then try and take my plants out and remix the soil they're in with these things, but I can't afford to buy a whole bunch more, and didn't really want to have to put the babies through all that.

Should I follow my original plan of buying an organic nutrient line and just using that? Any suggestions on complete nutrient lines that are organic and will completely finish my current grow would be great, the cheaper the better. Or if you think I should begin using organic teas now to feed them and get a beneficial microherd going, if this is still possible (enough time) with the way these have been started, I would love to hear about how to do this successfully. Also, any answers on how to correct my PH organically since this peat soil is acidic and so is the little bit of miracle grow stuff they were started in, would be terrific so I can turn this dead soil into a living beneficial environment for my plants. I don't want to waste money on trying to use organics if some products I may use are going to kill the microbes, fungi, enzymes, and bacterias.

 

[CrookedEye]

Some of the lower leaves are yellowing a good bit and some are even a bit crispy and curling at the tips. They haven't been fed anything yet, but whatever is in the miracle grow soil. Some of the higher leaves have greener veins but are yellowing between the leaf veins. The newer growth is a bit greener, but not a deep rich green, yet it is perking up a bit. One has small light spots forming in one of the lower leaves. I am almost positive some of that is due to the PH, but the lower yellowing may be from lack of nutrients as they have only been watered with RO water or some pretty close to neutral tap water and hygrozyme. They are probably just over a month old, maybe 5 weeks, I didn't mark the date I started the seeds on the calender..

The strain is Early Pearl X Cindy 99. Some clones I am rooting now are Afghani X Mango, a local rarer clone that is really killer, the original Bubba Kush clone, and Lemon G. I just started some seeds that are just beginning to germinate that are Lemon G crossed with Deep Chunk, then the favorite phenotype my buddy found, crossed with the Bubba Kush. I imagine I'll find a really good phenotype from these!

 

[JackTheGrower]

I sure wish you the best CrookedEye.

I also see this sort of My Grow has started and now what do i do post a lot over the years..

This one may be a bust friend.. It happens.

There are many styles of growing.. In the organic realm there are those who say organic rated liquids over coconut coir is an organic grow.. I disagree as there isn't any meaningful microbial life involved but that's my opinion.
Others ( like myself ) won't use a bottle of anything purported to be a all you need growing product.
The difference between the two is choice..
I may have time to do what i do but others may not...

If i was to advise someone on the first grow I would tell them that getting to know how a plant grows is more important the first couple grows than a harvest.
Unfortunately everyone is in a hurry so the market for ready made organic fertilizers abounds.

Simply.. A good soil mix.. Some reasonable organic fertilizers and a lot of reading and watching you garden.


I never check my run off.. I never check my soil PH but I can get away with that because I have a large biologically active box



I'm one for large root space from the start.. So a seedling in a 7 gallon pot is fine by me.

The secrets to a great grow are adequate watts of light in the right spectrum' , convection, and a healthy living well draining soil. ( IMO (tm) )

I only worry about PH when i add sulfur or lime as i do once in a while to ensure I have calcium and sulfur and even then I don't check I just use caution in the amount i add.

So start simple is my best advice.. Read up on the Macro and Mirco nutes.

There are a ton of things Organic folks here do i haven't tried and still I'm not worried my grow will be a bad one.

Jack

 

[CrookedEye]

I'm not worried about losin my crop or anything and I suppose I'll just use some foxfarm nutrients or something equivalent I guess for my current plants, since no one has given me any ideas on how to get this round going fully organic. That's okay, I have grown many a fine nugget, that tasted great and blew away most of the local "kind" nugs around here. Next round that is started will be done organically following one of the recipes in Burnone's sticky.

I do know how the plant grows and have grown pot on and off for 14 years. I have never lost a crop, only a clone or two now and then, so I am sure I can get the slight yellowing under control, and other than that, the plants are starting to look much better since the transplant. I may try worm castings, a bit of dolomite lime, and some LK or hygrozyme brewed into a tea, to see how that works, and then just go with the fox farm nutes with a few amendments as I see fit.

I appreciate all the responses from everyone, but I think if some people went back, read my posts a little closer, and just decided to answer the questions I asked, it may have been easier for me to decide.

I appreciate everyone's input and found some use in each, but very few actually gave answers to my specific questions, but rather gave me random thoughts that didn't relate, didn't really give me yes or no answers, and/or help me decide between the choices I was trying to choose between. Maybe next time I'll number and list my questions to make it easier to get precise answers to them.

Questions asked:

1) I was wondering should I keep adjusting the PH high (until the runoff comes out more near 6-7 PH?

2) was wondering if it was too late to start using all organic amendments and get a living soil before beginning to flower the current plants (they could be flowered as soon as I am sure the clones taken from them root, but can wait to maximize this first round if needed)?

3) It is time to start giving them some food, so I was wondering if I should just buy an organic line of nutrients and begin using those for this round, and then use the teas for the next round when I have mixed my own amendments and began a living soil before transplanting?

4) Or can I start watering with organic amendments and maybe some teas with dolomite lime (or other good PH buffer like worm casting teas) to start helping buffer the PH and get a living culture going so I can finish these organically without having to buy an organic nutrient line?

5) for this first batch that is already started, I am just wondering if it's too late to try those fully organic and wondering if a nutrient regimen that I can buy wouldn't be the best bet for those? {almost the same question as (3, 4)}

6) What is a good organic product for raising the PH in the soil, that I can water my potted plants with?

7) Will GH's PH Up kill beneficial organisms in a living/organic soil, or certain PH ranges even?

Again thanks for all the help guys, I really do appreciate it.

 

[CrookedEye]

Also, in the future, would it be probably be more lilely to be seen by more people in the Growers forum, rather than this sub-forum? Perhaps many miss the post being it's in the organic soil sub-forum, and only the organic soil growers check here.

Wonder if maybe it should be moved since I am probably not gonna go fully organic with this first batch, or maybe only water with a fully organic line but may need to add some "derived from" organic nutrients that are readily available to the plant upon feeding.

If a moderator sees this, perhaps they could decide where it would be better placed, if anywhere.

 

[maryjohn]

ya man it's hard to help you. most people here just do the organic thing.

have you tried piss, diluted 20:1?

and how often do you water?

 

[CrookedEye]

Haven't tried urine yet but maybe i'll give it a go next watering. Also, I was watering them every 2 days when they were root bound in the drinking cups, but they have only been watered once since transplanting about 3 days ago. The grow bags I used are 3 gallons, though, so it should take a little longer before I need to water, however I added extra perlite to get it to about the 40-50% range, so it should drain very well..

 

[JackTheGrower]

I'm not worried about losin my crop or anything and I suppose I'll just use some foxfarm nutrients or something equivalent I guess for my current plants, since no one has given me any ideas on how to get this round going fully organic. That's okay, I have grown many a fine nugget, that tasted great and blew away most of the local "kind" nugs around here. Next round that is started will be done organically following one of the recipes in Burnone's sticky.

I do know how the plant grows and have grown pot on and off for 14 years. I have never lost a crop, only a clone or two now and then, so I am sure I can get the slight yellowing under control, and other than that, the plants are starting to look much better since the transplant. I may try worm castings, a bit of dolomite lime, and some LK or hygrozyme brewed into a tea, to see how that works, and then just go with the fox farm nutes with a few amendments as I see fit.

I appreciate all the responses from everyone, but I think if some people went back, read my posts a little closer, and just decided to answer the questions I asked, it may have been easier for me to decide.

I appreciate everyone's input and found some use in each, but very few actually gave answers to my specific questions, but rather gave me random thoughts that didn't relate, didn't really give me yes or no answers, and/or help me decide between the choices I was trying to choose between. Maybe next time I'll number and list my questions to make it easier to get precise answers to them.

Questions asked:

1) I was wondering should I keep adjusting the PH high (until the runoff comes out more near 6-7 PH?

2) was wondering if it was too late to start using all organic amendments and get a living soil before beginning to flower the current plants (they could be flowered as soon as I am sure the clones taken from them root, but can wait to maximize this first round if needed)?

3) It is time to start giving them some food, so I was wondering if I should just buy an organic line of nutrients and begin using those for this round, and then use the teas for the next round when I have mixed my own amendments and began a living soil before transplanting?

4) Or can I start watering with organic amendments and maybe some teas with dolomite lime (or other good PH buffer like worm casting teas) to start helping buffer the PH and get a living culture going so I can finish these organically without having to buy an organic nutrient line?

5) for this first batch that is already started, I am just wondering if it's too late to try those fully organic and wondering if a nutrient regimen that I can buy wouldn't be the best bet for those? {almost the same question as (3, 4)}

6) What is a good organic product for raising the PH in the soil, that I can water my potted plants with?

7) Will GH's PH Up kill beneficial organisms in a living/organic soil, or certain PH ranges even?

Again thanks for all the help guys, I really do appreciate it.

Sorry .. To have been a bit of a butthead..

Let me see if I can answer these questions.

Maybe i can answer them.
-----------------------------

Questions asked:

1) I was wondering should I keep adjusting the PH high (until the runoff comes out more near 6-7 PH?


If I had some concern I'd feel comfortable watering with a known good tea in such small containers to dilute any excessive PH problems.
Water till it runs well out the bottom.


2) was wondering if it was too late to start using all organic amendments and get a living soil before beginning to flower the current plants (they could be flowered as soon as I am sure the clones taken from them root, but can wait to maximize this first round if needed)?

A healthy soil smells earthy. Most likely it alive with microbiology. I assume you will be transplanting into larger containers.
So simple answer Yes. Although I personally would want a nice root network before I flower.


3) It is time to start giving them some food, so I was wondering if I should just buy an organic line of nutrients and begin using those for this round, and then use the teas for the next round when I have mixed my own amendments and began a living soil before transplanting?


What works for you? There are mixes and tea solutions posted.

As for commercial grow/bloom products I can't comment.

: 5) for this first batch that is already started, I am just wondering if it's too late to try those fully organic and wondering if a nutrient regimen that I can buy wouldn't be the best bet for : those? {almost the same question as (3, 4)}

I'm a "whole earth" organic soil guy. I'd have no problem sticking plants in the soil and letting them grow.

6) What is a good organic product for raising the PH in the soil, that I can water my potted plants with?

See answer One.
---------------------------

Where I have failed to share is, where I'm coming from.
My soil box is like a 7 year old pet to me. I apply open area garden practices to a 16 sq ft planter box.
I add materials and compost as I feel they are needed and sometimes add materials in advance because they are bulk and breakdown differently than other materials. I feed the soil food web or the "Microherd" as needed and I water with mixes that contain a wide range of materials.
I don't think along the lines of unit by unit management unless you mean soil blocks.. In that case 2 inch blocks for seeds and 4 inch blocks for clones. Both offer air pruning when it comes to roots.. That's handy. But Organic growing is great.. Ask 10 Organic gardeners and you will probably get 10 different opinions. I've picked up a lot by the posts of others.

So friend what is your style?
Again, pardon..


Jack

 

[CrookedEye]

Thank you very much Jack, that is exactly what I was looking for. I've decided to go with fox farm trio for the ones started, and some other organic amendments, and for the seeds and clones I have started now, I am going to get those in one of the simple organic soilless mixes posted by burnone or possibly the MSM mix, if i can afford it, for ease.

I want to go fully organic and add most of the nutes needed to the soil, but since I have so much more experience using store bought ready-made products, I am going to stick with those to ease back into growing, so i have some more confidence. After a nice harvest, I'm sure I'll have a bit more enthusiasm for going fully organic. Plus, it'll be nice to save money mixing my own stuff.

Thanks again, and if anyone has anything to add here, I am all ears.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Thank you very much Jack, that is exactly what I was looking for. I've decided to go with fox farm trio for the ones started, and some other organic amendments, and for the seeds and clones I have started now, I am going to get those in one of the simple organic soilless mixes posted by burnone or possibly the MSM mix, if i can afford it, for ease.

I want to go fully organic and add most of the nutes needed to the soil, but since I have so much more experience using store bought ready-made products, I am going to stick with those to ease back into growing, so i have some more confidence. After a nice harvest, I'm sure I'll have a bit more enthusiasm for going fully organic. Plus, it'll be nice to save money mixing my own stuff.

Thanks again, and if anyone has anything to add here, I am all ears.

Good! Great guys all.

My style takes a long time. It's a challenge that made an excellent hobby.
Composting premium materials makes excellent top dressing IMO.