Question about Organic Hydro

[MintyFresh]

Sweet. Here is a list of what I have available:

Peat moss
Peat Humus (not sure if these two are different or same)
Compost Chicken manure
Organic Compost (bagged from lowes)
Bonemeal
Bloodmeal
Fishmeal
Liquid seaweed
kelp meal
dry Molasses
Liquid molasses (unsulpherated)
agricultural limestone
Hydrated limestone
Amonium Sulphate
Cottonseed meal
Muriate of Potash
Liquid Iron & other minerals
Alaska fish fert

I was thinking of using peat, perlite, composted chicken manure with blood meal, bone meal, lime, and tiny bit of the potash (it is listed as 0-0-60, so its really high..but still a teeny bit might be good?) And the liquid iron.

I could use the compost chicken doo to make those teas to feed with yes? I am still worried about how to go about getting all the right microbes and how do you know when the mix is ready and teeming with life?

Also I saw a product called Envirolife Microorganisms, it said it contains microorganisms from the rainforest. Would this be good to add?

But I now have a project I want to do later when I get established....just to satisfy myself I want to do a total hydro hempy next to the organic version and keep a detailed log of the grows. I like experimenting and doing compare and contrasts, so why not with my grow? Maybe by then I will be able to order stuff online. (have a VERY paranoid husband..only just finally got him to agree to growing but only with store bought stuff)

Thanks again for the help. I respect both ways (Hydro and Organic) which is why I want to do both side by side, so i can see and taste for myself.

 

[MintyFresh]

Oh..also, If I go with the rout of using a separate bin to make the medium (I did see lava rocks at lowes) I could continuously add to it through the grows and even dump the used medium after a chop and just mix it all in there? I think i saw somewhere where you said that the little lifeforms would even eat up all the left behind roots too. This would be possible? I like the idea of maintaining a tub of 'activated live' medium...kinda goes hand in hand with a perpetual grow.

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

MintyFresh you are exactly right! I don't have enough time to go through your organic list at the moment, but I just wanted to say that what you proposed in your last post is totally plausible. You could easily run an infinite bubble tub that is constantly developing and rejuvenating new 'live' medium for you to add to new containers for the continuous SOG. You are correct in thinking that this would be the perfect way to re-use old root-filled medium. The biological processes that feed off of the root sheddings when the plant is alive will make sure that any dead root tissue gets consumed. It would almost be like a compost pile, but you could not add materials that where as 'raw'. You wouldn't want to add for instance grass clippings or chopped leaves, but you could totally throw in coffee grounds or dried manure. Think of it like a worm bin. You are constantly adding new organics and there are life forms constantly consuming it. Instead of worms though we are using bacteria and fungus. As long as you take care not to add anything particularly 'raw' sooner than a week before more medium has to be removed to add to the SOG buckets you will have a constant source of ready-to-use microbially-active all-organic medium!

This is a fabulous new idea and is yet another possible offshoot of the OBBT technique. I discussed with you the idea Mt. Toaker and I developed for a multiple-small-container OBBT which is another potential offshoot, but this concept could yield much of the same benefits while keeping things way simpler. An always-running organic medium bubble tub could bridge the gap between super raw organics (active composting, worm bins) and completed medium. Currently, there is no smooth way to go from raw compostable material (manuer, kitchen scraps, grass clippings, etc) all the way down to a desirable growing medium. Everything currently involves doing some sort of composting and then removing the compost from its native environment and combining it with other things to make a finished medium. This means that it must spend time 're-growing' it's beneficial microbes. With a constantly running bubble tub it may be possible to go straight from the final part of the composting phase directly to the point where you can stick a plant in it. This could be very exciting for the organic community as it would provide the sort of 'missing link' that is needed to run an uninterrupted bio cycle from start to finish! We could be on to something really excellent here. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[MintyFresh]

Yes I was hoping it could be a continuous source. What is the smell like on something like that? Could I keep a small tub of it bubbling in my room? My idea is to not make it a compost pile, but just the growing media...say I add a bit more of the same ingredients to it when I deplete it for my sog...then add back the used medium and just let it continue to happily bubble away. If no one has heard of these envirolife rainforest microorganisms, I may add them to see what they do.

I don't want to make a regular compost pile yet because im worried about the 2 year old getting into it and my husband wants me to keep all my grow and supplies in the bedroom. I plan on gardening in my backyard so can compost then, but i can't do that kind of activity until I have a stable system of friendly medication going.

 

[Mrs.Babba]

please don't ruin someone else's thread!...take your rants somewhere else!
Minty..let me know if anyone else tries to hijack it again

 

[Dalaihempy]

Funny how im called ignorant and i stayed nice yet my post is removed maybe mrs b you should wheel your sward with more eveness in future.

Okay lets cut threw the crap and talk facts here real grow facts being Organic Hydro .

Now i have sed growing in the hempy bucket you can do it organicly but the resolts will be poor compeard to useing hydro nutrients that is fact and not something i pulled out of thin air.

Do me a big favour DrunkenMessiah dont replie to me or even use my name in any of your posts you have no credibility with me you dont have a single picture of you growing cannabis yet you have all the answears sorry thats just not good inuf.

Here is a intresting post i found thort to post it for the rest of you sums it up nicely i thort.

Re: Organic vs Chemical fertilizers

Ulitimately, all fertilizers are chemicals. The primary nutrients, Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium are chemicals (elements actually) and are provided as chemical salts. At a plant consumption level, these nutrients are taken in as chemicals regardless of the type of delivery.

The perceived advantages of organic fertilizers vs. chemical fertilizers are
- timed release...most organic fertilizers have 'locked-up' the nutrients in organic compounds that require further decomposition to release. It's not always true though. Urine, though organic, is not timed release & there are options for timed release chemical fertilizers
- supplied with organic matter for improved soil composition. Yes, but not always. Blood meal, Bone meal, fish emulsion, urine, etc., don't enhance soil composition, like compost or manure do.
- biggest perceived advantage for me is the smaller environmental footprint. Presumably the organic fertilizers are a byproduct of an organic process and require minimal further processing (& resource consumption) to make usable. Chemical fertilizers usually require mining (potash) or some sort of chemical process. One might argue though, that agricultural processes such as cattle ranching, or hog farming, use a huge amount of resources, including chemical fertilizers used for growing their feed.
- soil nutrient levels...inorganic or chemical fertilizers tend to boost the soil fertility immediately to levels that can be damaging to soil microbes and soil ecology while organic fertilizers 'lock-up' the nutrients and provide incentive (food) to the soil microbes. See my note on timed release though, it applies here as well.

So, it's not very clear cut, is it?.


http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ad.php?t=24976



here are a few more good links i thort a few mite like reading.

Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education
http://www.sare.org/publications/bsbc/chap3.htm

Article 5-5 Organic Hydro
http://www.simplyhydro.com/organic_hydro.htm



Pictures dont lie.

Here is 2 clones from the same mum same plants 1 is grown in organic hydro 2 is grown in normal hydro meaning fed hydro nutrients see the diffrence yes a big diffrence.

Organic hydro

Hydo feed

 

[Dalaihempy]

If you want or need my help im a pm away im over this and trust me i wont be shearing any more with this community time we let these so called experts loos on you all.

 

[MintyFresh]

Please you guys! I did not mean to start a war! I just wanted help on my first grow.

I don't want anyone angry or anything.

Dalaihempy I never thought you did not know what you were talking about, actually you make your point very concise and your method is impressive, but so impressive my husband would kill me and bury me in the backyard if I had a monster of a plant like that! Actually, even your picture of the organic hydro intimidated me....I like the itty bitty little bud sticks, in my case at the moment it is all I can do without my hubby freaking out.

I am really, really sorry for any anger my thread has caused, it is not what i meant for at all!

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

i wont be shearing any more with this community time we let these so called experts loos on you all.

I'm a so-called expert? Tits and cake, upgrade! Thank you Hempy, its an honor. Too bad you won't be around to flatter me some more; I'm in love with this thread!


MintyFresh

More apologies up front: I've got the bad habit of making intellectual cheap-shots and then weaving what is effectively only my opinion into writing that I would like to consider scientifically based and logically sound. Also, I despise misinformation and it irritates me when I think someone else believes that what I am saying is misinformation. What is in reality a difference of opinions can rapidly flare up into a who's-right-who's-wrong argument. Spurring, goading, and intellectual one-upmanship are all guilty pleasures of mine and I must confess to indulging them when given the setting of an anonymous internet forum. I humbly apologize. Factual and helpful discussion is the only thing that needs to be occuring in this setting and I promise to keep my responses un-confrontational from now on. *cough* In-this-thread *cough*

What a lovely list! That could make for some very complete nutrition and I think you have all of the bases covered as far as the medium/nutes go. You now need to be keeping in mind the considerable list of other provisions that you will need to make in order to provide a steady stream of medication. It is unfortunate that you cannot order in supplies for now, this will provide especially tricky when it comes to ventilation/filtering.

Despite this I am a strong believer in successful locally-sourced indoor grows. It is a practical thing to do, but you have to think about everything more before preforming any action. If you can get your hands on a Stanley Blower (I get them cheap at Menard's) you've got something workable on your hands. Combined with a gratuitous can filter plumbed directly onto the INTAKE of the blower. Carbon cans are easy to make from locally sourced stuff (panty hose, fine mesh chicken wire, HVAC fittings, pipe clamps) and can be effective for years of continous use. The only trouble you may have is sourcing activated carbon locally at an ecanomical rate. The best I've ever found was a large carton of activated carbon at a discount aquarium shop and what I ended up with was something that was overpriced by 100% with a granule that was just slightly too small for the job at hand. It worked, but it could have been a lot better and cheaper.

Lighting on the other hand can be done pretty well from local sources. You can sometimes get lucky finding a cheap source of small HID lamps, but this is rare. Floro tech is pretty good these days and many are heralding the PC-DL compact florescent (basically just a bent-over T5) as the current best solution for cost-effective hieght-restricted growing. I would agree, but the really good stuff, the high output models with external ballasts, will almost certainly have to be mail-ordered.

Conventional screw-in CFLs are getting awfully good these days and their range of color temps avaliable from local outlets is starting to improve. That said, good-old-fashioned T12/T8 fixtures are easily the best bang-for-your-buck to be had reliably from boxed retail outlets. The problem with them, and why the growing community at large has 'moved on', is that they have a VERY awkward light-sphere. This means they only really get good bud output in very specific situations, usually intense ScrOG.

There is a loophole in all of this however, and its called overdriving. I believe I already ranted about it a bit and sent you a link. To summarize it all: Good cheap reliable light output with surprisingly decent penetrating power and the widest range of color temp options to be had from local sources. Armed with some foil-taped overdriven GE plant & aquarium T12s (easily gotten from Lowe's) you have some seriously high-power light with a fabulous red spectrum for flower. Even with that it still delivers tons of blue, something the cost-effective competiter to OD floros: HPS fails miserably at. This means dense, danky bushy growth all the way through flower and a minimizing of the strechning effect after you flip the switch.

I claim that the results can be impressive. The resulting bud is capable of being just as high-quality as bud grown under HID. That said, you will never get 'rock-hard-nuggies' and some growers find the density (and therefore weight) of the buds to be dissapointing. I however would see this as quite beneficial to someone who is trying to stay within the bounds of a canabis legal status that is dictated only by weight of merijuana on hand. On top of that, running multiple OD floro lamps would allow you to keep different color temperatures. You could use very blue lamps in the veg chamber (which is running a long day) and run the nicely red plant & aquariums in the short-dayed flower chamber. This would be a big help to a perpetual setup, especially if you are trying to keep your little sea of SOG budsicles as squat as possible without having to do any advanced training. Frankly the more blue light those guys can get, the better!

Anyway keep those things in mind. Now, on to nute formulations!

There are a lot of recopis on this site. Tons, mountains of them. I've always loved this 'sharing of the secret sauce', but to some it can be impractical. Active organics are capable of using any organic fert on hand effectively (be it 'water soluable' or not) so long as they are added in roughly the correct ratio. Do do this, the gardener must get a basic handle on the needs of the cannabis plant over time:

Conventional wisdom states that seedlings get just about no nutes. Any volitile matirial; salt, organic or otherwise can be of harm. In my experience the incubation period eliminates this danger as all free radical organics have been captured by the fungal root network. So long as you don't over-concentrate up front there is little to go wrong.

So! Your seedlings will be plowing straight into the vegetative stage. You aught to be doing your own reading on this, but you will find a trend of agreement that a high ratio of nitrogen and not over-doing the potassium makes cannabis populations lean heavily female. Because there is no fruiting or development of sex organs phosphate and potassium are not needed in large quantity. What are important though are the 'traces'. A quick nutriotional crash-corse:

the mysterious numbers on a fert bag arranged as 0-0-0 are, as you know, percentage of nutrient bearing matirial. Nitrogen, phosphate, potassium. However there are three secondary nutrients: Calcium, magnesium, sulfur. These are important to have in your medium. Four parts magnesium to one part sulfur is ideal through flower. You've already added a lot of lime, that should be pleanty in the background for now. On top of these six there are the traces: Iron, copper, and, uhhh, some others. I used to know them all when it was crucial to add them as while I was running chemical hydro. When you use organics these guys will never even enter your mind. Anything sea-related such as kelp or fish emulsion tends to provide enough traces for the whole grow.

Anyway, with this in mind we want about three parts nitrogen to one part phosphate and potassium for veg. A strong background in the secondary nutes and traces helps a lot and will be easy to provide when using organics.

I was thinking of using peat, perlite, composted chicken manure with blood meal, bone meal, lime, and tiny bit of the potash (it is listed as 0-0-60, so its really high..but still a teeny bit might be good?) And the liquid iron.

This is pretty close to good, but a few suggestions. You will want to run at least 20% organic soil in your medium. Peat moss isn't as cool and springy as coco and so you may need to run more than 50% of it in the medium to maintain spongeyness. Pearlite will help put a nice bridge in the grain of your medium, but it would be nice to get some vermiculite in as well. You'll get along ok without it though. Forget the liquid iron for good and don't add the potash now. I saw a couple of entries on that list for Kelp, use some of that to get a balancing 1-0-2 along with a boatload of nice traces. Save that sweet-ass potash for flower. Shortly after flipping the switch and hitting stretch you will want to add serious flowering nutes. Phosphorus and Potassium start playing a far more important role as the plants sex and buds start to from. You are going to let nitrogen levels stay low and slowly dwindle towards the end of flower. This means not a lot of it will get added once you've flipped the switch.

I have found that a well-colonized population of pro-biotics will stand up to some use of salt ferts. I really like Bloom Burst (easily gotten from Lowe's) for a 6-55-10 general fert through flower. Add at a rate of 1 TEAspoon per galon of water and feed to the plants a couple of times through flower.

I could use the compost chicken doo to make those teas to feed with yes? I am still worried about how to go about getting all the right microbes and how do you know when the mix is ready and teeming with life?

Yes, but fish emulsion or fish meal is a lot better for the purpose of teas. At 5-1-1 it is perfectly balanced to use alone through veg. Once into flower you will have to get some sort of high-phosphate organic, many prefer bat guano, to make a good bud-swelling tea.

As for your worries about how to get the right microbes: comfort yourself with the fact that these worries are unfounded. When you study terrestrial plant life from the viewpoint of a chemist you start to believe that life is elemental. Provide favorable conditions and biology seems to spring fourth spontaneously. You and me and our houses and your childred and everything you touch is host to some form of life. It pushes and seethes and crawls over (and above and through) the surface of this planet and there is nothing that you or I can do to stop it.

All that we must do as gardeners is provide the aforementioned favorable conditions. Of corse, one can speed, diversify and improve this process with additives. The rainforest microbes you found will make a stupendous addition to the incubating medium. They should greatly diversity your soil chemistry by adding both beneficial fungus and bacteria. That said they aren't local and will not help so much when it comes to fighting off pathogens. For this there are few better remedies than a good culture of Lactose Bactilli. I've already lectured you extensively on it so keep its importance in mind. Between these two suppliaments a nice bubbling incubator tub will generate a thriving community of microbes.

And THAT process is one of the funnest parts about going active organic. You ask me how you will know when it teems with life but I can tell you when it happens you will find it obvious. When first mixed the medium smells of its organic components, which means not generally very pleasant. However, over the coming days it slowly changes into a subtle, deep and musky organic aroma that is not powerful or particularly offensive. There will be apparent white fuzzyness on and in the medium as the fungal network takes over. Trust me, the changes are apparent and spectacular. The smell of finished medium is fine, but it does smell very alive. A well-filtered and well-sorted air circulation system is going to be critical here. Granted, you are going to need it no matter what you do. You are looking to medicate with cannabis and that means you will be needing some pretty decent output. Even with cool-running floro lamps the amount of wattage you need will generate considerable heat in an enclosed, uncirculated space. And of course, once flower comes along there is nothing to be done to control that glorious odor other than actively filter it.

Its going to be quite the jeourney MintyFresh, I hope you are ready. For now it seems you've got the organic medium situation licked, you should be able to easily assemble a great nutrient regime from what you have on hand. Onward there is still much to do. Keep us updated on your progress and it will be helpful to us for you to continue posting any matirials (and thats more than organics now, be thinking of lights and fans) that you happen to come across locally. We'll be able to discuss the merits of what is avaliable to you and conclude on the best plan of action. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[mrwags]

Now you guys went and got Momma Babba in here. This poor girl simply wants to grow some good weed be nice please and bicker among yourselves.

PLEASE

Mr.Wags

 

[Dalaihempy]

Please you guys! I did not mean to start a war! I just wanted help on my first grow.

I don't want anyone angry or anything.

Dalaihempy I never thought you did not know what you were talking about, actually you make your point very concise and your method is impressive, but so impressive my husband would kill me and bury me in the backyard if I had a monster of a plant like that! Actually, even your picture of the organic hydro intimidated me....I like the itty bitty little bud sticks, in my case at the moment it is all I can do without my hubby freaking out.

I am really, really sorry for any anger my thread has caused, it is not what i meant for at all!

hi Minty do your self a favour get a good soil mix and use a normal pot grow a few plants that way less drama if your only wanting a few small plant then grow them to say 6 to 12 inch max and then flower wich will leave you with say a 2 to 3 ft max plant.

If your limited with space and numbers and dont realy want a good yield then theres no point in trying to get the best resolts a good soil mix in a normal pot will still give you very good resolts and it dont matter were you live all will be avaluble localy for you.

Just keep it simple the only time people screw there grows up is when they over complicate a simple thing cannabis grows fine with out mans help and the less you do the better you achive they just need the basics food and water and lite.

I couldnt pm you so put it here.

Good luck.

 

[MintyFresh]

Dalaihempy:

Yes, I have thought about that simple option as well since at first all I was researching was lights and stuff since I can’t plant them out in the backyard . But then after reading I was realizing that I wanted to at least get a good system in or at least start trying something so that when I do eventually get to mail order and wire my own stuff I will build a nice cab and upgrade. I figure I will eventually talk him into it since I got this far. Then as I learn more and get more experienced, I can continuously upgrade my grow and find out what works very well for me. Plus it gives me something to do and look forward to, I will eventually try hydro just so I can with complete authority say, “I have tried both ways and I personally like ………method.”



DrunkenMessiah:


Yes, I am STILL not ready to jump right in and go which sounds funny to me because we don’t obsess and nitpick this bad over our garden herbs or flowers…or maybe we do LOL I only tried to grow outdoors once with planted flower seeds (don’t remember what kind) that bushed and completely took over the back patio that had a little patch of dirt but had very pretty flowers . Or just growing various little windowsill plants, like catnip to tease the cats with and common herbs like sage and stuff. That was either buy a little pot kit or a pretty pot, some potting soil and some miracle grow.

I have been doing a lot of research and have made lots of notes towards how I want to grow. I am going to be a darned picky grower it seems because of all my limitations, not only the ones I mentioned before but also budget. Big one. I have very little to budget with for a grow. As I mentioned I am a medical user. I don’t work, I stay home with kids and the hubby provides financially. But since he doesn’t make a lot, we live on a budget and I get to take some of the ‘MISC” in our budget and put it towards a grow. Ya me!

What that means is I have to get very creative with my method of growing so I can afford it. Upfront with all the setup it will be hard, but once I get a system in place it won’t be much at all. …and yes, I even budget in the extra electricity cost! Now that is a budget. So I figure I will build my setup as I go with a perpetual harvest in mind. So first I need to provide for seeds and seedlings….I need a veg box! I need to decide on final medium and nutes, what will hold them, the lighting over them and the ventilation.

[FONT=&quot]You have given me yet even more for me to expand my researching and note writing. I think I will post a thread in the micro grow section since I have at least decided on a cfl Rubbermaid grow…that way I can stay on topic and not be posting a bunch of questions about the design aspects of my micro sog in the organic hydro forum, I hope you will read and continue to help me out! :friends:
[/FONT]

 

[mrwags]

Minty you can post in here for anything you want. Let's see some pics of the pretty flowers you were talking about:









We Do.

You see IC is more of a lifestyle rather than a hobby. Sharing the love is paramount as you have seen we have all levels of teachings it is simply up to you to find YOUR way and make your own decisions. But do understand the only bad question is the one you ask for the third time and you don't strike me as the kind of person that would ask more than once.


Have A Great Day
Mr.Wags

 

[MintyFresh]

LOL those flowers I grew when I was 17, don't have any pictures but mom was irritated because it turned into a monster bush and you could barely get by through the garage door...It's been quite a while since that.

 

[SlowCalaToker]

Hey minty, I'm sure you will do great with the rubbermaids and some organic soil. I got some great results with that setup for my first. The only pain in the ass with the rubbermais is having to take apart your setup to get to your plants. I got a $40 cabinet from Lowes that I like a lot better, and with a 150w HPS, it produces pretty good for my needs (Crohne's patient.)

Just remember, this thread is no indication of what to expect from your questions. Some folks are too touchy 'bout their methods. PLay and tweak and ask a million questions. I have never gotten any shit around here, and have not seen anyone get any shit for asking questions, as long as you don't ask the REAL moronic ones. You don't seem like that type at all, though!

Good luck with your new setup!

 

[MintyFresh]

Thanks Slowcalatoker! I am amazed at some of the rubbermaid grows floating about and wonder just how simple one can get and since I want micro sog with not a whole lot of plants, rubbermaids seem the best bet for me.

 

[SlowCalaToker]

Thanks Slowcalatoker! I am amazed at some of the rubbermaid grows floating about and wonder just how simple one can get and since I want micro sog with not a whole lot of plants, rubbermaids seem the best bet for me.

Light
Food
Airflow
Soil
Odor control

Find the best way for you to manage these 5 elements and your grow will more than please you! There are about a million ways to manage the combination of these 5, and you can do it on the cheap, with localy sourced materials. You are definitely on the right track. Have you lurked through the micro grow section? There are a TON of things people do to keep their shit small and extremely productive. I used to work with prisoners and was amazed at the ways they were able to hide shit and keep a black market going. That was until I started looking around here, stoners are MUCH more adaptive than prisoners!

 

[MintyFresh]

LOL ya i have heard that prisoners can get a bit creative....my hubby works with them too. I have been lurking all over this site trying to figure out the best way to go.