Question about hermaphroditic tendency

[oldmaninbc]

This links tomone of the most intelligent discussions of hermaphrodites and feminized cannabis that you will read in any cannabis forum. Nevil, Chimera and others will go into more detail than most here will be able to fully digest/understand, including me.

It's 14 years old and some of the terminology and technology will be a bit dated, but the basic scientific information, specific to cannabis, is still quite correct.

You'll see brilliant minds, discussing differing opinions about the feminization process and it's ultimate effect on cannabis, in a passionate and contentious yet thoughtful and respectful way.

So unlike modern cannabis fora today:

Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

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mrnice.nl

I'll have to take some time and read those posts again, my old brain still works but not quickly. Thanks for your input.

 

[oldmaninbc]

Hermies are entirely genetic. A plant that had a hard time at germination shouldn't hermie unless it had a strong genetic pre-disposition. A light leak when you flip to 12/12 at flowering is much more likely to cause intersex problems then stress a young plant experiences. Young plants are extremely resilient.

I've found that stress can be an overrated cause; light leaks, extreme root-bound conditions, extreme temperatures, etc. will force plants to throw male flowers, but there will always be plants that won't. For long term breeding and cloning you want to select plants that are rock solid females. There's quite a bit that can be written on the subject.

I've found 'modern' strains I've grown over the last 15 years are almost hermie-free compared to the ones I grew in the 90s. There's a few reasons for this. The primary reasons being access to better seed stock and better breeding techniques. I used to have nasty hermies turn up nearly every crop. Now I might have a few nanners at harvest but I can't remember the last time I had a crop ruined by a true hermaphrodite.

Now that there's access to better genetics I don't have to fool around with bag seed and questionable seeds gifted from friends. Bag seed is usually caused by a hermaphrodite since the seeds likely came from an all female crop. Several generations of breeding from bag seed might result in high quality ganja but it also causes the plants to be strongly conditioned to switch sex.

This answers your 2nd question. I would almost certainly toss the seeds from these plants in the trash unless the line was exceptional an very rare. If you do plant them you need to expect them to both produce hermie offspring and be pre-disposed to switch sex at the slightest stress. Even so if you're very selective you should be able to find a few true females. I would hybridize these females with true males for a couple generations to select away from the intersex trait.

I'm going off topic a bit here because it doesn't apply to your situation. But I still find it interesting. Is what has been lost by winnowing out the hermaphrodites. SE Asian strains, especially Thai types, tend to be strong hermaphrodites. When I was growing in the 90s I had a couple of strains that were hybrids of Afghans crossed with Thai. They were notorious hermaphrodites. The strains are gone now, extinct, because most cultivators didn't want to deal with the problems they caused.

This is frustrating to me because these were some of the best strains ever. The Thai side added a wonderful sweet smell and strong psychedelic effects. I wonder about what has been lost, by the work has been done ruthlessly culling hermaphrodites. I certainly don't miss them but as a collector and preservationist I wish some of these unique strains had been saved.

Thank you for your time and knowledge.

This crop has left me baffled over the hermaphrodites. In 2011 I received my personal production licence and have repeated the same growing system over and over. Why this time was different leaves me in a quandary. However, listening to all the opinions plus my own experiences, I have to think genetics is the master. But what condition in my tent this time, was different from previous grows, I honestly don't know.

 

[oldmaninbc]

I've been breeding for fun and to share regular photo periods, feminized photo periods and feminized auto flowers. I've shared 1000's of seeds with folks all over the USA and have not heard of a single hermaphrodite yet. I'm not a long time pollen chucker when it comes to feminized seed making, around 10 year. 30 + years with regular photo-periods. But, I believe that hermaphrodite traits are genetic and under the right conditions they will surface. I've had a really nice hash plant that hermed on me three years in a row. It was grown outdoors and was never stressed. I tossed the rest of those seeds in the campfire. No need in my eyes to keep those genetics around.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, sensible comments are always welcomed.

 

[oldmaninbc]

I think hermies are mostly genetic. I believe we can influence strains that have those hermie genetics. Stress of any kind can bring out recessive herm traits in otherwise "stable" plants. Not all stress and not every time. Each plant is an individual. But I do think that strains can appear to be stable and still turn if given the right stress at the right time and for long enough.

I'm just a guy in his basement. Not trying to act like a scientist. I've goofed up a crop or two. I've grown the bagseeds before, and while they didn't hermie, the results were 50/50. Some of it was good and some of it got me about as high as a Delta 8 joint ... meaning it was bunk weed. Total waste of time, money and energy. The bagseeds I got were from dispensary weed that was grown outdoors. No idea what the mother got pollinated with to produce those seeds. Probably industrial hemp or wild ditch weed. Now that I think about it, none of those hermied. I won't ever waste my time on bagseeds again. I know how to grow weed, so I don't need to learn by wasting my time on unknown seeds.

I have to agree that individual plants will exhibit different outcomes. My problem with the last crop was
"what did I do different" that provoked hermaphrodites. It is not normal for me to have this issue, why this time? Most of the comments here point to the impact of genetics on sexual expression but at the same time environmental conditions can influence the genetics. It really is a waste of time for a small grower to be putting expectations on an unknown strain. Time and money mean something. Thanks for your comment

 

[Dime]

Hermies are because people breed hermies. It never used to be like this and if seed companies sold hermies they were called out where now it's acceptable. I read a thread on a different forum and they were intentionally using them "just to see"

 

[therevverend]

This crop has left me baffled over the hermaphrodites. In 2011 I received my personal production licence and have repeated the same growing system over and over. Why this time was different leaves me in a quandary. However, listening to all the opinions plus my own experiences, I have to think genetics is the master. But what condition in my tent this time, was different from previous grows, I honestly don't know.

Were these clones you've run many times before or was the entire crop from seed?

 

[oldmaninbc]

Were these clones you've run many times before or was the entire crop from seed?

This crop was from seed, purchased from a commercial seed seller. All seeds in original packages.
The one plant that was not full hermaphrodite just a couple of branches with a few male sacs; was in the back corner and the main branch grew taller than the light and other branches grew almost into the LED light.
I have a 70cm growing height. Could this provoke hermaphrodite issues?
The first hermaphrodite I culled at week 4 was littered with male sacs.

 

[hfm]

If you were running clones you could nail it down to one thing.Cannabis is so subjective and really only wants to reproduce.It happens. Bummer,it looks yummy!

 

[therevverend]

I see that makes sense. Either the breeder made a huge mistake then didn't test their seeds properly. Or they're knowingly ripping people off, selling seeds made from intersex plants. I'd contact them, explain what happened, and ask for a refund or at least replacements that are herm free. If they're legit they'll make it right, if they're rip offs they'll ignore you or tell you it's your fault.

There's no way it's your fault. Even with the a bad light leak or plant abuse you aren't going to have an entire crop seed up and go herm. You'll have a few male flowers here and there, a smattering of seeds, mostly immature. The big red flag is the 4 week herm. Those don't happen without messed up genetics. The only time I've seen it happen from conditions were from outdoor plants cloned and moved indoor, that were exposed to 24 hour darkness and terrible light leaks.

 

[Marz]

I have to agree that individual plants will exhibit different outcomes. My problem with the last crop was
"what did I do different" that provoked hermaphrodites. It is not normal for me to have this issue, why this time? Most of the comments here point to the impact of genetics on sexual expression but at the same time environmental conditions can influence the genetics. It really is a waste of time for a small grower to be putting expectations on an unknown strain. Time and money mean something. Thanks for your comment

Probably some mistake triggered that behavior in your crop.
A waste of time is losing a harvest and not knowing why, this is time and money wasted. Sowing unknown seeds should be the duty of any serious grower, preservation. DIY.
I never had a hermie from commercial seeds, and I'm not a good gardener.
Points of view.

 

[Dequilo]

Even with the a bad light leak or plant abuse you aren't going to have an entire crop seed up and go herm.

Truth to that now if it is shitty genetics ....

 

[Artistick Seeds]

Certainly hermaphrodites are a problem for the sinsemilia grower. But I think that for the farmer who would produce in the open field on several hectares in order to produce hashish, and who wants to be self-sufficient in seeds, that could be an advantage.
No more need to choose which males to keep to pollinate the crop. Selection only on female plants, from which it is easier to evaluate their strong and weak points.
We just need to ensure that there is not too much hermaphroditism in the ratio of male and female flowers on the same plant.
The farmer would thus have a greater density of plants in his field, because he would not have to uproot male individuals.
This is just a hypothesis of course.

 

[goingrey]

Certainly hermaphrodites are a problem for the sinsemilia grower. But I think that for the farmer who would produce in the open field on several hectares in order to produce hashish, and who wants to be self-sufficient in seeds, that could be an advantage.
No more need to choose which males to keep to pollinate the crop. Selection only on female plants, from which it is easier to evaluate their strong and weak points.
We just need to ensure that there is not too much hermaphroditism in the ratio of male and female flowers on the same plant.
The farmer would thus have a greater density of plants in his field, because he would not have to uproot male individuals.
This is just a hypothesis of course.

Seed producers (like for food/oil) prefer hermie (monoecious) strains because every plant is a producer (instead of just half of them), and also no males rotting away earlier..

 

[Dequilo]

Certainly hermaphrodites are a problem for the sinsemilia grower.

over sexed females trying to procreate

 

[mudballs]

I've had one outdoor plant produce a single (one) pollen sack where a wire hold rubbed too much...not a nanner, real sac. If i knew anything about this shit it's that there is sometimes no way to know what goes on in the plant

 

[oldmaninbc]

I've had one outdoor plant produce a single (one) pollen sack where a wire hold rubbed too much...not a nanner, real sac. If i knew anything about this shit it's that there is sometimes no way to know what goes on in the plant

And I thought when I grew old I could be a plant whisperer, oh well.

 

[mudballs]

I really am sorry for your troubles. Someone mentioned recreational tent growers can't really afford the time and space to grow out seeds of questionable predisposition, and i agree. But i also know not all offspring are garuanteed to be hermis just as much as the seeds you bought weren't supposed to go intersex on you.

 

[mudballs]

Since you've been cool thru this whole thing here's some reading that equates to the way i think about this shit

Exploring Ethylene-Related Genes in Cannabis sativa: Implications for Sexual Plasticity

Sexual plasticity describes an organism’s ability to change its phenotypic sex in response to environmental, chemical or physiological cues without a change in sex chromosome karyotype. Cannabis sativa L. (cannabis) is a medically important dioecious crop, with a pair of heteromorphic XY sex...

www.biorxiv.org

When they/we say it's genetic we mean this
"The mechanisms responsible for these changes vary, but can involve gene expression changes related to hormone synthesis and signaling"
i call it plant diabetes for lack of a better phrasing. The above plus epigenetic responses means you can alter a plant permanently within a few generations...even clones can be altered given enough time and gene altering input.
Growers may have caused the intersex, or lack of signals caused it...read that again, lack of signals. We spray STS to stop ethylene, which is the feminizing hormone. The plant stops receiving the ethylene and loses the signal, and begins making male flowers. I say grow one seed out and see for yourself.."yep it hermied, mudballs is a dick"...or "oh shit this one didn't hermi"...you'd be in rare company if you saw either outcome

 

[oldmaninbc]

Since you've been cool thru this whole thing here's some reading that equates to the way i think about this shit

Exploring Ethylene-Related Genes in Cannabis sativa: Implications for Sexual Plasticity

Sexual plasticity describes an organism’s ability to change its phenotypic sex in response to environmental, chemical or physiological cues without a change in sex chromosome karyotype. Cannabis sativa L. (cannabis) is a medically important dioecious crop, with a pair of heteromorphic XY sex...

www.biorxiv.org

When they/we say it's genetic we mean this
"The mechanisms responsible for these changes vary, but can involve gene expression changes related to hormone synthesis and signaling"
i call it plant diabetes for lack of a better phrasing. The above plus epigenetic responses means you can alter a plant permanently within a few generations...even clones can be altered given enough time and gene altering input.
Growers may have caused the intersex, or lack of signals caused it...read that again, lack of signals. We spray STS to stop ethylene, which is the feminizing hormone. The plant stops receiving the ethylene and loses the signal, and begins making male flowers. I say grow one seed out and see for yourself.."yep it hermied, mudballs is a dick"...or "oh shit this one didn't hermi"...you'd be in rare company if you saw either outcome

I 've had unwanted cannabis seeds through hermaphrodites and some only showed hermi plants in my small sample. While another time, all hermi seeds produced solid females. Your right who knows for sure, without testing them.

These days I am usually limited to 4 plants in my small tent. I am licenced to grow more if I choose but space is an issue.

 

[igrowone]

I 've had unwanted cannabis seeds through hermaphrodites and some only showed hermi plants in my small sample. While another time, all hermi seeds produced solid females. Your right who knows for sure, without testing them.

These days I am usually limited to 4 plants in my small tent. I am licenced to grow more if I choose but space is an issue.

similar results, from a "very hermie" seeds had a 50/50 chance of herming
otherwise females and rock solid stability, not to mention some fine phenos in there