Question about a contradiction in breeding autoflowers

[vicious bee]

When your breeding regular plants people say to always NOT use the pollen off of the first plant to flower. They say the first to spray pollen is the most Hemp like and least drug like plant. What about autos? Do you use the pollen from the first to spray pollen? Could you throw away the pollen from the first release but use the next release of pollen from the same plant? I know that last question sounds stupid. Could the first release of pollen be different from later releases, but is that so? Or is the pollen from a plant always the same"from the same plant"?

 

[Owl Mirror]

That is interesting, I've not heard this before.
I thought male plants die after releasing their pollen.
In nature, a second pollination would never occur since the plant dies.
I would like to learn more about this topic.

 

[blynx]

I would also think that if you were breeding for an early strain that you would want the earliest male. IMO, that would be kinda strange to want the 2nd fastest plant?

I guess I would also question why that logic only applies to male plants and not to female plants

 

[S_a_H]

That is interesting, I've not heard this before.
I thought male plants die after releasing their pollen.
In nature, a second pollination would never occur since the plant dies.
I would like to learn more about this topic.

I think he means a 12/12 strain where the male showed and a cut taken. Then grow out the first male to see what he shows and then use the cut for breeding purposes if you like him the first time.

Plus I have revegged males right along with some females.

For autos I would grow out some males and collect pollen from each and see how they finish before using the pollen.

S_a_H

 

[Owl Mirror]

I think he means a 12/12 strain where the male showed and a cut taken. Then grow out the first male to see what he shows and then use the cut for breeding purposes if you like him the first time.

Plus I have revegged males right along with some females.

For autos I would grow out some males and collect pollen from each and see how they finish before using the pollen.

S_a_H

Thanks, I was under the impression he meant the actual pollen was not good.
The first pollen sacks should be just as viable and potent as the last sacks. NO?

 

[lordbudly]

no what this guy talking about is pretty much how drug strains will eventually turn back to hemp if left to breed in nature, the theory behind this is the earliest males pollinate the females, meaning they get the most pollen to the females so a larger proportion of the population is from that early male, so in a perfect controlled experiment the early male would be the hemp factor, ive also heard the argument that early males show earlier because they are more light sensitive, contributing as a recessive hermy trait, so hermy sensitive strain + early male = possible problematic offspring

 

[vicious bee]

The question I'm asking pertains to autos but I'm wondering if the breeding habits of breeding for quality in 12/12 strains are the same in autos.
Male plants or mine anyways don't release all their pollen at once. They keep releasing pollen in spurts. That's what I mean when I say to catch the second release of pollen. I'm not saying the first release of pollen is not effective at pollination. Is the first release of pollen the same as the second? This may seem to be cut and dry but is a caterpillar a butterfly?
Not taking pollen at all from the first plant to release pollen is a separate issue.
Here's a link about early pollen.
http://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/48785-subcools-breeding-better-cannabis.html
I can't remember all the post on not picking the earliest to pollinate but I've seen this info in many posts by many breeders.
I've heard people talking about their F2's not being as good as the seeds they bought. Maybe this is why.

Blynx " I guess I would also question why that logic only applies to male plants and not to female plants". Good point I never thought of that although it's obvious if you thing about it.
Now to confuse things even more. I read a paper by a Chinese researcher that said if you wanted more fruit or upper parts of plants to take pollen from the top of the plant. He said if you take pollen from the bottom you get less of the fruit or upper portion.

 

[*mr.mike*]

I'll just say that the premise sounds like crap to me. For instance, I've noticed that the first litter of dogs born to a couple are pretty much the same as pups born later to the same couple... I think "like produces like" has some ground here. I've grown my own tomatoes and peppers from my own seeds for more than fifteen years, and they don't change, as long as I keep my seeds stright, and don't mix anything. I really don't think that the meiosis behind the gametes changes, at all.

I read a paper by a Chinese researcher that said if you wanted more fruit or upper parts of plants to take pollen from the top of the plant. He said if you take pollen from the bottom you get less of the fruit or upper portion.

I wouldn't even spend one minute reading such a paper.

Please post a pic of your "feng shui" arranged growroom, and I'll take it serious.

 

[vicious bee]

Mr Mike that's good to know. Decreases my breeding anxiety. People have so many different ways of doing things. The idea that the earliest flowering is more hemp like is what many competent breeders say. Just wondering what everyone thought about it. If you don't ask you can't learn.

 

[ChynaRyder]

I really don't think that the meiosis behind the gametes changes, at all.

Well said. If you look at what a pollen grain is, and what it transmits to the female plant, it is simply a packet of genetic material, half of what is required to provide a complete complement. The mechanism that makes it does not change. There is no 'early meiosis' or 'late meiosis', it is what it is. In breeding autos, I cannot for the life of me think of a reason to not seek the earliest of both parents. Quick turnaround i think is a large part of the goal of most af breeders.

 

[DIRT DIGGLER]

Here's part of the article I was reading lastnight makes sense IMO.
...Breeding 101 Subs Method.

The first mistake people make in selecting a male is by choosing the most vigorous. Remember those complexities I mentioned earlier? Well, >>>the recessive drug traits we seek are stashed away in non-vigorous males<<<<.
Think about the plant in the wild, the natural progression of Cannabis is back to Hemp. The drugs strains we have today are a direct result of human intervention. Robert Clark says it better “In the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. Without proper selection, these early males cause "acclimatization" of the variety, and a decrease in drug quality. This is the "dominant" state of Cannabis. If it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? All you would have to do is let the plants do their own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. The only way drug varieties ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order.

check it out.
http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18057

I would think the later males would still be your best bet,even when breeding auto's...better safe than sorry.

 

[vicious bee]

That's one of the post I read that led me to posting the thread. There's others also but I can't place them right now. This article makes good sense to me.