purging without vacuume?

[Chunkypigs]

when you see bubbles in your oil as you finish purging I'm guessing you think they are butane still coming off. the butane is released after the temp of your oil rises beyond the boiling point of the solvent.

so, when you see bubbles released as the oil temp goes higher than the boiling point of the solvent you are seeing turpenes etc. being released and when it gets hot enough the carbon dioxide will be the last thing to bubble off.

your fears about smoking butane are not based in reality. try studying grey wolfs threads to get a factual science based explanation of oil making, he breaks it down very well...

alcohol takes waaaay more effort to remove from your oil, it's not the shortcut you are
looking for.

purge thin FTW, 1 or 2 cans of tane per pyrex dish, the butane has trouble breaking out of a thick cold layer, hash oil is not very fluid at the boiling temperature of butane...

hope it helps, my 2 cents..

 

[señorsloth]

when you see bubbles in your oil as you finish purging I'm guessing you think they are butane still coming off. the butane is released after the temp of your oil rises beyond the boiling point of the solvent.

ok, but they said earlier in the thread that butane boils at 34 degrees Fahrenheit...so if all i have to do is raise it to that temp...well it is always above that temp...im confused...i have been doing a lot of reading, i assure you, but the info out there is very inconsistant...some people say use an oven, some say a stove or hot plate, some say 170 degrees, some say 120, some say just heat it for a 30 second burst and you are done, some say heat it for 17 hours, some say its done when it can be whipped into buddar, some say never whip your bho, some say if it can be whipped its not pure enough, some say all good oil can be whipped...

i'm just trying to figure out how hot to heat it and for how long...like a temperature and a time...

if it's really 120 for a long time i think i could find a lot of ways to accomplish that without a 1500 watt skillet, if it's hotter for less time well i guess a stovetop or my oven would suffice...120 degrees is really not that hot, im pretty sure those small plug in coffee cup coasters that keep your mug hot would keep a small dish of oil at 120 for however long without using so many watts or even a 100w incandescent bulb placed right above would accomplish that i would think...but you guys are the experts and i am clearly not...i just want to find specifics on time and temp for this type of purge first i guess so i can figure out where to go from there, if nothing else, i have a hotplate picked out at walmart that i can grab for my next run of oil...my case of butane should be here next week, i'll be doing a pretty big batch because today was harvest day for me and i have lots of trim.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

i tried your fanning technique lol as my butane was finishing off...i doubt i would be able to tell the difference at this point...im still relatively new to bho production...but i am now really confused, it only takes one burst of heat on a stove to purge it? whatever happened to the 12 hours of heat purging people were talking about? how long does your stovetop burst method take? you take the dish your butane is in and put that directly on the burner? is there any benefit to doing it for longer on a lower setting? if not, i wonder if a toaster oven or regular oven might also be used?

is this basically low heat for a long time or higher heat for a little time? i have found a few people saying just chuck it in the oven for 20 mins at the lowest setting...i don't want to overcook my oil, but if i can do it faster i think that would use a lot less electricity...better than using a skillet for 18 hours straight that uses 3 times more electricity than my entire grow...

like i i said, its in a pot of hot water on the burner. when i make oil i take tap hot water and put it in a a pan, then put a glass dish in there. the oil is extracted into the glass dish, the liquid butane is evaporated outside naturally, then i bring the whole thing inside to the stovetop.
its using just enough heat for just long enough, maybe a bit longer. typically i do a stovetop purge in around an hour, maybe up to two if its really thick in the dish, say anything over 5 grams needs longer to fully release. i also have a lid on my dish to keep the top of the oil warmer.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Why would you suggest to this guy to google a laboratory hot plate? He is already talking about how he is afraid to use his electric appliances at home cause of the added electricity expense and you suggest to him a 300+ dollar laboratory hot plate??

The kind of hot plate brought up here and used by a lot of people lately is nothing more then a "presto" brand flat cooking griddle you find at places like target or walmart for about 20 bucks.

http://www.target.com/p/presto-cool.../A-10740155#prodSlot=medium_1_10&term=griddle

wow, lot of responses, i came back cause i felt my last comment was pretty dickish...i'm sorry about that...i was way off base there...

so a hotplate huh? lol seems like a lot of people use them...im new to this and i need to keep a much more open mind...i would ask for more info on it but im guessing now that i know people do it i can find the info googling? again, Ticklemyballs, im sorry man i'm an ass, and thanks everybody for the advice.

*edit*as it turns out this stuff is harder to find than i thought...ive found references to hot water purging, hot plates, or just putting it in the oven at 170 for 20 mins...hot plates are the best way? are there threads out there explaining how? are you guys talking about like the hotplates that you cook food with? ive been searching on amazon and thats all i can seem to find...i wouldn't think that would go low enough...

Ummmmm, because he said he could find one. Is that OK?

I also prefer hot plates with sparkless solid state controls. Are the hot plates that you are reccomending so equipted?

 

[NorCalZero]

I just use a kitchen thermometer to get water around 180-200 since it is indirect heat, then pour that water into a dish and set my glass dish with bho on that and let it slowly evaporate, changing the water when it doesn't feel warm anymore....when you are about halfway through that process I put a little water on the bho and kinda swirl it over the bho and let the water absorb some impurities, then pour out any excess water. Then change out the warm water in the dish below a few more times....it should be getting close to done so I do a quick 2-3 minute sun purge, wait 24 hours just to be extra safe, then freeze for an hour or two. After it thaws I scrape it off the glass with razor blade. All done. I read somewhere you can use a brake bleeder to further purge but I've never bothered going that far.

 

[Gray Wolf]

thats what we are talking about!? a big skillet!?lol i guess i could handle a bit of electricity, though i would prefer not too, i see that big thing uses 1500 watts, thats a lot of juice! im gonna assume the smaller ones use much less...i'll get over it...so could i just set my oven to 170(thats how low it goes) and use that or are we talking about lower temps than that...and so from what i gather you just heat it till it stops bubbling? and that takes like 12-15 hours? i didn't even think those skillets or hotplates went that low...i seem to remember having an electric heat pad for my neck, it got pretty hot to the touch, but not scalding...i bet it was around 120...wonder if something like that would work? just put the pirex dish on it? or maybe it wouldn't be hot enough...i'll definitely get whatever you guys think is best...though, no offense graywolf, but $300 is a little out of my price range...

so if you can just slap your oil on a pancake skillet why do people vacuum purge? does it do a better job? i found this one on amazon, it seems to be the lowest wattage setup i can find(800w), think it would work? im only going to be purging a few grams at a time, never more than like 7 grams i would think... http://www.amazon.com/Aroma-AHP-303-Single-Plate-Black/dp/B0007QCRNU

and also, is it possible to winterize with iso alcohol instead of ethanol? the stuff i've been making has been really good, although later on i might be interested in trying this step, i guess i could probably order a small bottle of pure ethanol, though i couldn't get any from the liquor store in my state...the most we can sell i believe is 151 proof...

If $300 is out of your price range, you might pick one up used on e-bay or use an alternative method.

If you are going to use it just for final purging, there is a lot more latitude than if you are using it boil off solvent.

Purging involves time, temperature, partial pressure, surface area, and air movement. If you change any one of those factors, you change the results.

Since you don't want to use vacuum, you have eliminated partial pressure from the equation, so you can vary the other factors.

The molecules of butane move around in the solution and try to escape, if there is enough energy in the form of heat present. For non vacuum purging, the greatest efficiency happens at the highest temperatures, but alas, off go the lighter terpenes and decarboxylation occurs.

If you drop that temperature to about 130F, put the oil in a thin film so the molecules don't have far to move, and blow filtered air across it to keep the enriched boundary layer removed, it will purge out the butane below detectable levels quickly. Up to 180F is faster, but you lose more monoterpenes, and above 180F you lose them rapidly.

As far as equipment, you don't need anywhere close to 1200 watts, what you need is sensitive controls that can hold a set point, and a good thermometer to keep track of what is going on.

There are any number of kitchen devices that will do so. I've used an electric fondue pot full of Canola oil, double boiler style, for years. I like it because I don't have to constantly stand over it with a thermometer and tweak the controls to stay within process limits, like you do with some of the devices designed to keep oil in the deep fry temperature range.

I've also used everything from a mercury lab thermometer, to a laser pyrometer to keep track of temperature. Here quality counts, so get a good one.

Polar ISO will remove some of the waxes and lipids from a non polar extraction, but not nearly as well as ethanol.

 

[NorCalZero]

Using a fondue kit to make bho, the definition of "gangsta"...that was a compliment btw

 

[Rowdy420]

I bet you have access to an oven...set it on it's lowest setting usually 170 or so, after the initial purge that gets 99% of the butane out it's safe to put in oven and wait until all the tiny bubbles have popped on their on (usually bout 15-30 minutes). Absolute shatter will await you after scrapping up, no whipping dat shit!

Good luck, Peace

 

[señorsloth]

Since you don't want to use vacuum, you have eliminated partial pressure from the equation, so you can vary the other factors.

i do want to use a vacuum! and i have a ton of respect for your advice, it's just that if i could afford a 300 heat pad i could afford like 2-3 vacuums...i would like to really get into this purifying hobby, and a heat pad with a magnetic mixer bead? that's just awesome...seems like it would make re-disolving bho for winterizing a breeze...i just can't afford them at the moment, mainly because i am getting an hmk curve and devoting as much of my harvest to bho as possible...so my budget for toys this month is already spent...i am talking about a temporary thing here...purging without a vacuum i mean, just for a month or so till i can force myself to buy a vacuum...

my only issue here is that there seems to be a major lack of compended info about this subject...it seems like EVERYBODY has their own way...there are no standards or agreed upon facts...there seem to be a LOT of people online that seem to think they can just look at a bho in it's solid state and tell if its purged or not...

is that possible? if im doing low temps like 120-130 how do i tell when it's finally done?

if im doing hashmasta kut's stovetop method, how do i tell whether to go an hour or 2 hours? is the stove just to keep the water from cooling down?

and rowdy, when doing your method...you don't lose flavor even after doing it for 30 mins?

I bet you have access to an oven...set it on it's lowest setting usually 170 or so, after the initial purge that gets 99% of the butane out it's safe to put in oven and wait until all the tiny bubbles have popped on their on (usually bout 15-30 minutes). Absolute shatter will await you after scrapping up, no whipping dat shit!

thats what i did this previous round that ive been vaping the last 3 days, surprisingly it tastes really good, although i used my heavenly tasting c99, and she was very fresh and very dry...i accidentally spilled a little water in the dish so i stuck it in the oven at 170 to evaporate it off, only about 10 or 15 mins though, and i put it in cold so the preheat gradually warmed it...i have bho the consistency of jolly rancher right now, maybe a little bit softer than that, it's very firm though...i didn't do it to purge it though just to get the water out so i could smoke it...again though it tastes good, better than the moon rocks brand bho i get from Colorado sometimes...

 

[jump117]

No need to use another solvent, I'm telling you, you're over complicating the process.

 

[skullznroses]

FWIW I also thought that alcohol purging would be a good way to get the last of the butane out at first. This was based on watching the Rick Simpson vid where he rapidly purges his batch with a lil alcohol at the end.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

Jump117- LOL That sure gave me a good laugh.

Absolutes for the win.

 

[Gray Wolf]

my only issue here is that there seems to be a major lack of compended info about this subject...it seems like EVERYBODY has their own way...there are no standards or agreed upon facts...there seem to be a LOT of people online that seem to think they can just look at a bho in it's solid state and tell if its purged or not...

is that possible? if im doing low temps like 120-130 how do i tell when it's finally done?

if im doing hashmasta kut's stovetop method, how do i tell whether to go an hour or 2 hours? is the stove just to keep the water from cooling down?

Diverse ideas are the good part! If we all had the same taste and ideas, us'n man childs would have killed each other off over the same woman, long ago.

Pick one you like and try it out yourself. There are a lot of routes to Rome, as well of folks damn sure of things that ain't so. I started by trying those that sounded reasonable, given known laws of physics, and developed my own process.

I tell by watching the bubbles, taste, smell, and they way it burns. Put some on a wire and stick it in a flame. Water and/or butane will make it burn erratically. Put some on a wire, that you know isn't purged, stick in a flame, and watch what happens.

Hashmasta Kut is the best person to ask about the nuances of his process, so I will defer that question to him.

The key point, is that butane is not toxic at those low levels, so it is more a matter of taste, smell and the way it burns, than health concerns. Besides its low smell and taste index, its low toxicity is one of the reasons they use it as a food propellent.

Another key point, is that if you are going for taste, you get more if you start with more terpenes, which diminish with drying, as the lighter monoterpenes have a lower evaporation temperature than the water, so they leave before or along with it. I use fresh frozen material if I want optimum vaporization flavor.

 

[Gray Wolf]

View Image

Fire in the hole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gray Wolf]

FWIW I also thought that alcohol purging would be a good way to get the last of the butane out at first. This was based on watching the Rick Simpson vid where he rapidly purges his batch with a lil alcohol at the end.

Redissolving in alcohol and purging the alcohol, will help rid the oil of lower boiling point solvents like butane. It works well, but does also take some of the terpenes with it.

It can be a trade off, in that we redissolve in ethanol to winterize, which costs us some terpenes, but rids us of the waxes, which add both taste and palpable coating to the lungs and palate.

 

[señorsloth]

ok, so given all of the excellent advice, i decided to try one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Sunbeam-756-5...=UTF8&qid=1351965054&sr=1-2&keywords=heat+pad

"The surface temperature on all our resistance heating pads, except Soft Touch®, is a maximum of 135oF - 140oF. If you use one of our Soft Touch® or HeatSenseTM heating pads, you may choose a temperature from the following settings: Lo: 110oF Medium: 138oF Hi: 160oF Health at Home heating pads are engineered to never exceed 176oF, the temperature limit set by Underwriters Laboratory."

this above says to me that it should have just the right amount of heat, but also it doesn't have a 1 hour cutoff switch, plus it uses a lot less electricity that a hot plate to do the same thing...from what i can find they use around 50-65 watts at the very most...frankly if this works as well as i think it should it would seem very wasteful to heat purge on a stove or hotplate at 1500w for hours on end when the same thing could be done on one of these for 50 watts...i'm going to purchase and start doing tests soon, although i think i am going to stick with this specific brand i linked, and NOT use any with digital controls, because as far as i can tell, this super basic model is the only one out there nowadays that doesn't have either a 1 or 2 hour cutoff...

what do you guys think? im still doing some more research on them, i'll probably just buy one from walmart and test with a cooking thermometer and a pyrex dish full of water to make sure they go up to the right temps...another plus is that some have a thin sponge, meant to be dampened, so that it transfers heat super effectively, it seems that that would also make for a much more efficient heat transfer to a pirex dish, than say a coil-style hot plate...the only thing more efficient would be an oil or water bath...but i would think the moist sponge would transfer less water vapor into the air, than a whole dish/bath full of steaming water...

there are even digital ones available for about 40-50 bucks, just set it to the temp you want, down to the degree, put your pirex dish on the pad, and come back when it's done, minus the huge fire hazard and minus the thousands of watts of electricity used...

another possible plus is that these things are designed waterproof, to be sat on by fat sweaty dudes, and to do so without shorting out and zapping the dude to death...also without causing hotspots on his fat sweaty skin...and as i stated above, some models even include a sponge you moisten and put on the pad...newer models are even washing machine safe! seems like that would make it ideal for putting a pirex dish on with even, low heat...and the fact that it's waterproof makes me think you could probably use it in place of a hot water bath to keep your plate hot while the butane is boiling off...i mean if there is no way a sweaty guy can shock himself with this then how could a slight vapor on your back deck be ignited by it?

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

frankly if this works as well as i think it should it would seem very wasteful to heat purge on a stove or hotplate at 1500w for hours on end when the same thing could be done on one of these for 50 watts..

but when i use the stove, its only on for a total of maybe 3-5 minutes at most. so its not hours at 1500watts, its 3-5 minutes.

 

[señorsloth]

but when i use the stove, its only on for a total of maybe 3-5 minutes at most. so its not hours at 1500watts, its 3-5 minutes.

i wasn't referring to you hmk, i was talking about people saying to put your oil on a hotplate for 12-17 hours on the lowest setting...the hot pad appeals to me because it uses like 20-30 times less electricity than the stove or a hotplate but can achieve the same temperatures...electricity might not be an object for some people but it's really important for me to use as little as possible in my life, so that i can devote most of my monthly electricity to my garden...also after testing the temperatures of the 3 settings i should be able to keep it at a stable temp...no offense, hmk but your method seems to be largely based on intuition and experience, both of which, i have little to none of...the heat pad should be able to do it gently enough that i can't mess it up...

 

[pip313]

500w for 5 min or 50w for 10 hours? whats more effecient?


Its real simple if a liquid is below its bp it evaporates slowly, if it goes to or past (superheating) it evaporates much faster. Requiring less energy overall. This is not taking into account heat loss from the container to the air. You are heating the air around the container much more when taking 10 hours. Obvious waste of energy.

 

[skullznroses]

the more you know

the more you know

Redissolving in alcohol and purging the alcohol, will help rid the oil of lower boiling point solvents like butane. It works well, but does also take some of the terpenes with it.

It can be a trade off, in that we redissolve in ethanol to winterize, which costs us some terpenes, but rids us of the waxes, which add both taste and palpable coating to the lungs and palate.

hey thanks Grey Wolf. Ive messaged you regarding this in the past and I appreciate your clarifications. When I redissolved the hash into alcohol I never had any real separation of the substance. It just became a really thick heavy goo which worked very well. Little harshness and thick smoke that coated my lips. Oh yeah. So when did I lose terpenes during this, cause I really let this cure or age for quite some time after the initial water bath boiling off alcohol process.