pH keeps climbing WTF?

[PetFlora]

Throughout their live span, plants eliminate excrement through their roots.

During veg the roots are relatively small, and so is the amount of excrement.

HOWEVER, once flipped to make bud sites (babies), a new root mass develops specifically to feed and carry the heavier amounts of P & K to the bud sites, and to remove their more toxic excrement.

This excrement is typically several whole pH points above that of your nutrients (a nute pH of 6.5 can become 8.5+ excrement). Since it is going directly into your grow medium (or rez), you are seeing it in action. And it will cause your plants to become toxic. Since most growers are unaware of what is happening (if they were, they could prevent it) they assume their plants have a nutrient deficiency, or lock up. They then over P & K which will burn the bud sites and further toxify the plant.

Most of this can be minimized by using a much larger grow pot, or stop recycling nutes. A 5ft tall plant needs a 20G grow pot with excellent drainage to minimize this problem. Similarly, so do DWC/Hydro/Aero... Or you can change your grow frustrations by learning to grow with High Pressure Aeroponics.

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey PF,

Dude we were talking hydroponics anyway, excrement? solution gets dashed for new weekly, got to keep it clean. I cant see what your trying to say bro? DWC i do mate!

I never keep a solution more than 9 days, my Ph will start going capput if i do, exceded its Buffering cap! etc etc.! try reading the thread!(said with respect of course)

anyone doing say E&F should periodically flush/leach out there medium anyway imo.(every 2 weeks or so). same for RW growers, RW has a habit of accumilating salts, its a Bad idea if doing NFT to ignore this.(Again, flush RW periodically every 2 weeks to prevent any salt accumilation, which will cause Lock & Defs etc) Plants naturally exude.

 

[PetFlora]

lmao, bro dam your getting told "some" cods'wallop, stand by!(you must be really confused"!!!)

Right, if your doing DWC or hydro, you want your PH to drift up slowly, this is a good thing & a sign of a healthy system.(morethat 0.5 PH up in 12 hours signals your solution is too weak, This is NOT a Bad thing unless you are seeing deficiencys!)

Hard water has a better buffering capacity than soft(also a good thing-as long as it aint silly hard).
If you have no Lime-Scale around taps & shower heads Kettles etc your Ok & its not too hard * prolly soft.(softer water 'usually' has a PH in the Mid 7's range approx, but can be higher or lower.

If your PH is shooting up more than 0.5 in 12 hours, you prolly need to increase your feed a bit.
If after say 3 days your PH is still drifting more than 0.5 in 12 hours im certain you need to increase your feed strength.

Right, this is how to do DWC without an EC meter. your OK as long as you have a PH meter.

After Res Change day, Chart PH for 3 days, keep adjusting daily back down to where you want it to be(ie-PH Down). if its still drifting/sweeping up after 3 days(with add-backs/top-ups-1/8th strength) then this is a sure sign that your feed strength (EC) needs increasing.

You need to work out the full strength for that pacific nute line!(harder to do with GH line btw).

With the Canna line(for 1) its simple, the full strength is listed on the bottle at 40mls per 10 litres.
split this number up into 1/8th's or 16ths, take your pick.

Your starting strength will depend on stage of growth of course, but say your in wk 2 of veg your gonna be on 1/4-1/3rd strength.

What you need to do is increase the solution (EC) in 1/8th's or 1/16th's & keep charting PH daily. You will notice after a while that your PH settles where you want it tobe & the upward drift will be alot less & drift less frequently. You want upward drifts of 0.2 - 0.3 daily or within a few days anyway. Once you see your PH settle this way, you know your EC is somewhere near where your plants want it to be.

Im not very good at explaining things but if you think of things like this, your barking up the right tree. if you were using Canna this info would be easy for you to understand.

I really hope this helps ya man, dont give up on Hydro. Soil & organic growing is harder & there is much more to it imo!

My point is you can chart & pilot your DWC Bucket with just a PH meter. Remember Upward PH drift is a possible signal that your plants want more food, this is a sign of a healthy system. overfert & your PH will drift the other way, then you'll know youve added too much & need to add water back to weaken your solution off!

Every Change out day(weekly etc) just up the strength by 1/8th & see where your PH goes(after 3 days) from there! try keeping your add-backs to 1/8th too.

This way is how i was taught years ago & its worked for me ever since. keep it simple!

Less is More! Out of interest what is the PH of your Tap?

Best of Luck to you Bro!

Peace............Scroger!

BTW, ive been using the Blue Airstones for years & years, they are Fine man believe me!

(Why do i think this is in the wrong thread? cant work it out! lol)

Scrogerman is right to a point. He implies that runoff is recycled to the rez, with reduced ppms due to plant uptake. I D2W, but my pH still drifts up. I do agree that this is normal within the range he discussed

 

[SweetLeafCare]

If your using rockwool.......Ditch it. Rockwool sucks and will give you all sorts of PH issues.

Rockwool is from the "Stone Age" of hydroponics.

 

[highonmt]

Throughout their live span, plants eliminate excrement through their roots.

During veg the roots are relatively small, and so is the amount of excrement.

HOWEVER, once flipped to make bud sites (babies), a new root mass develops specifically to feed and carry the heavier amounts of P & K to the bud sites, and to remove the excrement.

This excrement is typically several whole pH points above that of your nutrients (a nute pH of 6.5 can become 8.5+ excrement). Since it is going directly into your grow medium, you are seeing it in action. And it will cause your plants to become toxic. Since most growers are unaware of what is happening (if they were, they could prevent it) they assume their plants have a nutrient deficiency, or lock up. They then over P & K which will burn the bud sites and further toxify the plant.

Most of this can be minimized by using a much larger grow pot. A 5ft tall plant needs a 20G grow pot with excellent drainage to minimize this problem. Or you can stop using medium, and learn to grow with High Pressure Aeroponics.

UMMM lets see plants don't poop in the sense you are talking about. Some carnivourous plants actually do but how often has your cannnabis plant eaten a bug?? Plants do produce a wide array of root exudates which regulate the root surface environment and communicate chemically with other plants, bugs, fungi etc. But as the man said the subject is hydro...and not HPA jinkers give it a break already with the high pressure aero... we are not in a tiny space ship lets grow big. The new 50 site system I'm building uses 30gal pots, 3.5 gal net pots of hydroton HR style high flow drip. Why not see if you can grow a 3lb 6 footer in areo ...Cheers Peta I like your enthusiasm enjoy growing just how you like it.

Scrogger nice chatting about this with you bud, BT is a legend in my estimation too and knows his stuff about growing. Like I said earlier this water chem. shit is complicated with different buffers forming as you add different ions and the plants take them up etc etc. Find a water nutrient combo that works for you and keeps your plants growing well; thats what counts in the end. Cheers friend,
HM

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey PetF,
To a Point? believe me bro, this is the easiest way to run a Res without an EC meter.
there aint No Run-Off in hydro in the same respect i relayed. DWC for example is way different to soil growing bro. Like i said earlier Upward PH drift is a Sure sign of a healthy system(in most cases/standard), as long as the point drift is not 0.5 or more, not only does an excessive drift(0.5+) cause stress to your plants, its usually an indicator of too weak an EC(most of the time). When adjusting hydro solutions PH it should be done in 0.2ponits at a time as to minimise stress, wait an hour then another 0.2, & repeat untill you have desired PH value!
G'Luck

Not the issues here anyway bro!

 

[Scrogerman]

If your using rockwool.......Ditch it. Rockwool sucks and will give you all sorts of PH issues.

Rockwool is from the "Stone Age" of hydroponics.

Wrong, it just needs to be treated correctly(Prior to use & regularly washed/leached etc), why it is still sooo popular in the hydroponics world & mainstream horticulture, ever worked in a large dutch greenhouse(Kassenbouw)? Ive worked inside them & helped Build then bro

I think Grodan would have a have things to say about your comments bro, go check out there website, its interesting & they have a new type of RW on the market too with better qualities.

RW has its place but i too ditched it because it has certain qualitys i dont like, still its very effective!!& easy to use & maintain! It holds the perfect water to air ratio as long as it can freely drain(one of a few pro qualitys) Besides Roots lov the shit & NFT's growth Kicks ass too.!(with RW)
again this is going off topic!...

 

[PetFlora]

Hey PF,

Dude we were talking hydroponics anyway, excrement? solution gets dashed for new weekly, got to keep it clean. I cant see what your trying to say bro? DWC i do mate!

I never keep a solution more than 9 days, my Ph will start going capput if i do, exceded its Buffering cap! etc etc.! try reading the thread!(said with respect of course)

anyone doing say E&F should periodically flush/leach out there medium anyway imo.(every 2 weeks or so). same for RW growers, RW has a habit of accumilating salts, its a Bad idea if doing NFT to ignore this.(Again, flush RW periodically every 2 weeks to prevent any salt accumilation, which will cause Lock & Defs etc) Plants naturally exude.

Sorry if I didn't explain clearly...

Excrement is waste products. Plants eat, therefore they create waste. Waste products are removed through the plant roots and dumped into whatever medium is being used (soil/hydro). If you are recycling the runoff back to your rez, you will have pH issues in veg, but much more in bloom. Hope this clarifies it for everyone.

 

[Scrogerman]

UMMM lets see plants don't poop in the sense you are talking about. Some carnivourous plants actually do but how often has your cannnabis plant eaten a bug?? Plants do produce a wide array of root exudates which regulate the root surface environment and communicate chemically with other plants, bugs, fungi etc. But as the man said the subject is hydro...and not HPA jinkers give it a break already with the high pressure aero... we are not in a tiny space ship lets grow big. The new 50 site system I'm building uses 30gal pots, 3.5 gal net pots of hydroton HR style high flow drip. Why not see if you can grow a 3lb 6 footer in areo ...Cheers Peta I like your enthusiasm enjoy growing just how you like it.

Scrogger nice chatting about this with you bud, BT is a legend in my estimation too and knows his stuff about growing. Like I said earlier this water chem. shit is complicated with different buffers forming as you add different ions and the plants take them up etc etc. Find a water nutrient combo that works for you and keeps your plants growing well; thats what counts in the end. Cheers friend,
HM

Bang-On bro, its complicated for sure & i aint no chemist, like i said earlier thats why we spend our hard earned cash with the likes of Canna & Hydrogarden AN, etc etc. its been great talking to you too & long may our chats continue!
Peace & Respect........Scroger!

Good luck with your Build bro, i hope you showthread it so i can follow along, great stuff!

 

[PetFlora]

SweetLeaf: I am no fan of RW either, but when used properly it is ok.

I grow using HPA (High Pressure Aero). One G of nutes easily lasts a full week without recylcing back to my rez.

In HPA there is no grow medium beyond the starter cube roots hang freely in side of a root chamber (pod), but if cloning you don't need any medium, you simply wrap a neoprene puck around the cutting and let it root in a bubbler, then transfer to a pod.

However, I am growing autoflower plants (can't clone) so I need a base starter cube. I can use RW "IF" I cut it in half vertically. This allows some roots to get into the aero environment pretty quick, increasing survival rate considerably. If I use a full cube it retains too much moisture and I wind up with root rot and mostly dead babies.

I also use S2G starter cubes, just can't push the seed too deep as the man-made fibers are so tough the top of the plant has trouble breaking through. I lost 5 seedlings because 'I" pushed the seeds too deep.

The moral of the story is: You must know the limitations of your medium.

 

[PetFlora]

highonmt

The title of this thread is "pH keeps climbing. WTF?" I guess I missed the part where it is specifically about TREES. lol

But why don't you think HPA is great for growing trees?

Run a side test with 2-4 X 55G drums. Reptile Basics sells everything you need.

1. 8800 Aquatec pump (quick disconnect I/Os) is $90
2. Mist heads complete from $5
3. 1-2 Y adapters (splitters for multiple pods) ~$2
4. Sufficient tubing to connect pump to mist heads ~ $10
5. A Deep Cycle timer accurate to one second or below.

Drill a hole in the top of the drums to accommodate whatever size net pot, and 1-4 holes along the sides for high pressure mist heads, and of course a drain.

You will need ~ 1 G of nutrient/2 pods/week. Also with HPA max veg ppm is 400; max flower 800. Think of the money saved in nutes alone.

I would love to see someone do this. I don't have the room.

I have a completed journal (lots of pics) here that you can check out for tips. Before you come back and blast me, I was still learning about HPA, nutrient additives, and lighting. I did not begin the journal with all the hardware necessary for success.

Pooping Roots

I have checked the pH/PPMs of my runoff during bloom. Both go WAY up compared to the feed nutes. So far up in fact that if those nutes are recycled, plants can become toxic and sick

 

[Scrogerman]

Aero ah, although supposedly(never done it) explosive in growth, i believe not alot of room for mistakes & is prolly the most difficult form of hyroponics there is. Just getting temps wrong for a day can fk things up & if Pumps fail its curtains. But good luck to you dude!
no anomosity from us guys here bro!
best of Luck with your HPA.
Peace.....Scrogs!
awww i was getting somewhere untill this(sorry PF) but G'Luck anyway! Drain to waste bro, problem solved!

 

[PetFlora]

Accepted in good humor. Truth is HPA is easy, but there is a learning curve. My journal shows the many mistakes I made, so you don't have to.

TEMPS: A chiller on the rez, or dropping in frozen jugs of water into the rez solves that.

Pump Failure: often a problem in the early days of DIY development some 10-5 years ago, they were using the wrong pumps. The Aquatec 8800 (~$90) has worked flawlessly for 3 grows, so far. I did buy a backup, just in case. The really trick growers use an accumulator tank, so their pumps only go on every couple days, and only long enough to refill the tank.

Backup: I plan to install a small bubbler inside the pod as a backup: a plastic utensil tray (3 X 12 X 3) with a 10" bubble stone, and ph balanced H2O. In the beginning, it will be high up on a table near the young roots, but will need to be lowered as they grow.

Hi Jacking This Thread

Sorry to have taken part in hijacking this thread, however, I felt the need to respond in public to Scrogerman's last comment. Most HPA naysayers are simply not up to speed on its' evolution from the old days. If you are comfortable with hydro, you will quickly learn to love HPA, if for no other reason than you will save a ton of money on nutrients

 

[Scrogerman]

Mate i dont hate any Hydroponics, i love all, including Aero. But in reality Aero is notoriously renowned for having little leaway for mistakes, 'compared to other systems', (Chillers are expensive & the Bottle run is a PITA, tell me about it, mid summer i do myself), thats the only point i was trying to make & now this is soo far off topic from where i was i doubt ill ever get answered, maybe spurr can be so kind to trot a few pages back.
No-Doubt Aero Kicks ass, just has its flaw's(Clogging is another), like all the other systems do, There are Pro's & Cons with all systems. I would not recommend Aero to new growers myself but that doesnt mean they shouldnt give it a go, could be the best move they ever made, like i said i love ALL Hydroponics including Aero & HPA.
G'Luck man!

Adding the bubbler makes the rig a hybrid too, a good move bro!

 

[PetFlora]

Scrogerman, you have hijacked this thread from CatManDoo.

Start your own thread, but think on this: rain water is pure water. Pure water is aggressive by nature. As it collects underground it leaches the minerals(alkaline) from the rocks containing it. If you start with RO or Distilled water and add < 150ppm of CalMg+ you are at the same relative place. You are making yourself nuts.

 

[highonmt]

highonmt

The title of this thread is "pH keeps climbing. WTF?" I guess I missed the part where it is specifically about TREES. lol

But why don't you think HPA is great for growing trees?

Run a side test with 2-4 X 55G drums. Reptile Basics sells everything you need.

1. 8800 Aquatec pump (quick disconnect I/Os) is $90
2. Mist heads complete from $5
3. 1-2 Y adapters (splitters for multiple pods) ~$2
4. Sufficient tubing to connect pump to mist heads ~ $10
5. A Deep Cycle timer accurate to one second or below.

Drill a hole in the top of the drums to accommodate whatever size net pot, and 1-4 holes along the sides for high pressure mist heads, and of course a drain.

You will need ~ 1 G of nutrient/2 pods/week. Also with HPA max veg ppm is 400; max flower 800. Think of the money saved in nutes alone.

I would love to see someone do this. I don't have the room.

I have a completed journal (lots of pics) here that you can check out for tips. Before you come back and blast me, I was still learning about HPA, nutrient additives, and lighting. I did not begin the journal with all the hardware necessary for success.

Pooping Roots

I have checked the pH/PPMs of my runoff during bloom. Both go WAY up compared to the feed nutes. So far up in fact that if those nutes are recycled, plants can become toxic and sick

Ya, umm the phenomena that you are seeing when the ph and ppm go way up is the result of plants using more water than they do nutrients. I see this anytime I run a rez in hydro that does not auto top off with ro water. The plants don't poop out large amounts of salts that drastically change ec and pH that's nonsense ;plants roots do exude various organic and inorganic compounds but I've run 4 months without changing my nutes; just topping off and have seen no such toxicity. You do have to continually add water to make up for water uptake by the plants.
And Scrogger aint hijacking he is just driving for the deeper message in a simple question no harm done in that. Further I know areo is a good method just too prone tocomplexity and failures and so is not sutible for a large scale grow IMO of course. Lets talk water chemistry..
HM

 

[PetFlora]

highonsomethin' I will have to respectfully disagree with your high pH/ppm analysis

 

[Scrogerman]

Scrogerman, you have hijacked this thread from CatManDoo.

Start your own thread, but think on this: rain water is pure water. Pure water is aggressive by nature. As it collects underground it leaches the minerals(alkaline) from the rocks containing it. If you start with RO or Distilled water and add < 150ppm of CalMg+ you are at the same relative place. You are making yourself nuts.

kKHHSGZZREVDHEDFDzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!,

whaatttt! are you serious, you wnna lauy off the green crack bro. im not gonna entertain your attitude, Pics of your grows speakl for them selves, & thats where i do my talking too. good luck to ya mate
I was quietly speaking my peace & helping my fellow IC'er & along comes 'expert boy' who cant grow fo a shit giving it the Big Spuds' what a muppet"!
All youve done is talk off topic all thread its you that needs to start his own thread, i have done nothing but try to help the OP & address the issue at hand, if i were you id give it up!

Do me a Big favour, read the thread front to back n tell me what you see, i never insulted you untill this childish response, grow up.1
you obviously havent a clue!

HghOnMT, we're obviously surrounded here bro, i say we igree with them.(just cause we can? lol)

 

[Scrogerman]

Ya, umm the phenomena that you are seeing when the ph and ppm go way up is the result of plants using more water than they do nutrients. I see this anytime I run a rez in hydro that does not auto top off with ro water. The plants don't poop out large amounts of salts that drastically change ec and pH that's nonsense ;plants roots do exude various organic and inorganic compounds but I've run 4 months without changing my nutes; just topping off and have seen no such toxicity. You do have to continually add water to make up for water uptake by the plants.
And Scrogger aint hijacking he is just driving for the deeper message in a simple question no harm done in that. Further I know areo is a good method just too prone tocomplexity and failures and so is not sutible for a large scale grow IMO of course. Lets talk water chemistry..
HM

LMAO! Kids these days! i dunno! lol!!!!!!!! OG Bannana Poop Kush LOKllllllllllllll

Respect HoMT you know the Dance brotha!