Pesticides and Organic Growing - simple guide.

[Lazyman]

I think there is a common misconception amongst the populace that organic food growers use no pesticides, or that they only use organic pesticides. Neither are true of course, they use a shitload of them.

For commercial weed growers, most don't use organic anything because it typically doesn't yield as much for things like SOG gardens in soil/coco, costs far more to buy nutes, and the plant takes longer to absorb them (organics are usually run at higher rates than salts too.)

I was intrigued by the comment:

If you are about to lose your crop to pests, and are thinking of turning to better living through chemistry, please reconsider. How much do you need that weed? What are you willing to risk? There are alternatives to chemical poisons. They may be more expensive, or less effective, or harder to implement, but it's worth it to stay organic.

I think that only applies to smaller growers really, you aren't going to convince a commercial grower that any % of their crop is an acceptable loss to mites, root aphids, etc. Losing additional yield to organics isn't helping the organic case any.

Besides, don't you watch Penn and Teller's Bullshit? Organics are a fraud. If every farmer on earth converted to organic food growing, 2 billion people would starve to death. Professor Virtanen was awarded the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 1945 for this discovery, and sadly it's still true today.

 

[C21H30O2]

There are soo many misconceptions in this post. First, there is no way that organic growing is more expensive than chem growing. If you think it is you havent grown organic and thus should not be presenting you opinion on something you have no experience with ( i don't know if you have experience or not just stating that if you don't you shouldn't comment).

Second, conisdering that NPK means almost nothing in organics, the claim that it takes more to do the same thing is completly unfounded as you are comparing two completly different substances without a valid principle of conversion between the two.

Third, this is the organics forum, we care more about cannabis (quality) than yield. Even commercial organic growers show similar respect for the plant and the people who will consume it. therefore your claim that commercial growers wouldn't sacrifice for their plants and the people that consume them is bull shit. Move to northern cali and ill show you and ass load of people who grow commercially, organically, and with great consideration for the quality over the yield. this is of course in contrast to commercial growers who grow strains that yield big and smoke OK, who want money and show little love for their plants, who fully automate instead of spending their own time with the plants etc etc...

Finally, a lot of research has gone into organic growing since 1945 when the mainstream agricultural community new jack shit about working with the environment. Now we have a microbial understanding of how plants form a symbiotic relationship with their environments. Instead of cramming chemicals down its throat or adding organic matter and hoping the plant grows we now know we can greatly effect microbial populations and thus plant health and production. ACT effectively levels the playing field between organic and chem growers. Do a little research and you'll find organic growers achieving over 1.5 g/w thus negating your claim. The difference between a good chem grower and a good organic grower is a matter of knowledge. A chem grower knows pH, eC, ppm etc and organic grower must understand microbiology and plant biology. It takes more knowledge but you can produce the same amount of a better quality product.

I think there is a common misconception amongst the populace that organic food growers use no pesticides, or that they only use organic pesticides. Neither are true of course, they use a shitload of them.

For commercial weed growers, most don't use organic anything because it typically doesn't yield as much for things like SOG gardens in soil/coco, costs far more to buy nutes, and the plant takes longer to absorb them (organics are usually run at higher rates than salts too.)

I was intrigued by the comment:

I think that only applies to smaller growers really, you aren't going to convince a commercial grower that any % of their crop is an acceptable loss to mites, root aphids, etc. Losing additional yield to organics isn't helping the organic case any.

Besides, don't you watch Penn and Teller's Bullshit? Organics are a fraud. If every farmer on earth converted to organic food growing, 2 billion people would starve to death. Professor Virtanen was awarded the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 1945 for this discovery, and sadly it's still true today.

 

[maryjohn]

I think there is a common misconception amongst the populace that organic food growers use no pesticides, or that they only use organic pesticides. Neither are true of course, they use a shitload of them.

For commercial weed growers, most don't use organic anything because it typically doesn't yield as much for things like SOG gardens in soil/coco, costs far more to buy nutes, and the plant takes longer to absorb them (organics are usually run at higher rates than salts too.)

I was intrigued by the comment:

I think that only applies to smaller growers really, you aren't going to convince a commercial grower that any % of their crop is an acceptable loss to mites, root aphids, etc. Losing additional yield to organics isn't helping the organic case any.

Besides, don't you watch Penn and Teller's Bullshit? Organics are a fraud. If every farmer on earth converted to organic food growing, 2 billion people would starve to death. Professor Virtanen was awarded the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 1945 for this discovery, and sadly it's still true today.

Really, penn and teller told you organic and sustainable agriculture is a hoax? Well that's that then. But if you believe that, why are you on this forum? You must realize I or others would point out that the green revolution has actually been a disaster. We have not fed more people for free, we have merely externalized costs - to be paid at some point by us or ours.

I'm not going to pass judgement on every commercial grower who doesn't grow organic, and I would prefer they seek to minimize harm as the OP is attempting to do. They just don't need to do it on the organics forum, because it's a surefire way to pick a fight.

You are right that most organic food is bullshit - just like free range meat. We will not be able to eliminate these poisons from our food production until we change some habits.

 

[Lazyman]

Just to address a few points:

I do live in NorCal (all my life, both Humboldt and Sonoma counties)
I am a commercial indoor grower
I've been growing for 15 years, 6 commercial
I have used organic ferts, several times.
I know dozens of growers personally, ranging from small ins to large outs and vice-versa.
I'm not on a crusade to stop organics, though at times it may sound like it.


I think organics are more popular as an outdoor regimen, as they have more time to work and to decompose in the soil. They can be bought and mixed in bulk, top dressed for full-season girls, and have time to be effective.

Indoors, organic nutes for a hydro system are usually store-bought, are smelly, expensive, and according to a number of other respected members of this board, slower to uptake than salt-based ferts. I have seen this myself as well. With a short SOG crop indoors, organic nutrients don't all have time to dissolve (or be made available) as is required. Store-bought liquid organic ferts like Pura Vida are expensive, require high application rates, and turn out smaller yields, depsite their being "pre-digested" and some of the most available organics in a bottle.

I did a side by side grow on my last run to prove this. Negligible difference in quality (organics smelled stronger when cut fresh) and about a 15% loss in quantity, and the liquid organics cost quite a bit more $.

For guys that try organics in buckets, hydroton, NFT, rockwool, perlite, or aeroponics, the outcome is often poor. They get slime, algae, smelly reservoirs, root rot, bacteria, and lower yields as a result. Mycorrhizae have been shown to die off when P hits over 35PPM, which most of us exceed even in veg. Trichoderma die off around 400PPM, leaving precious little microherd to manage nutes in the roots. How do enzymes help when the microherd is wiped out?

I know I know, we're talking apples and oranges to a degree, but for the sake of this conversation, I think you'll find far more guys doing organics outdoors than in, especially on any kind of scale.

I think the differences between chem and org are more than just informational or educational, I think it boils down to control. With organics, especially anything amended into the medium, you have little to no control over what the actual levels of each nutrient are, and can not change them easily. If you accidentally put in 2 cups of bone meal instead of 1/2 cup, how do you fix it? Flushing will just cause more of it to be released into the medium.

Nice "dig" on the automation btw, did I really piss you off enough you had to find something about me to complain about? Automation means I can spend more time caring for the plants than the grow room itself, when you have a lot of plants in a big room it becomes a necessity IMHO.


That said, and being a fairly diplomatic guy, what organic nute regime would you recommend for an indoor, recirculating, SOG crop in coco? Plants are only in this system for about 9 weeks total. PLEASE no dry amendments, it needs to be more responsive and controllable than that, and mixing up a cubic yard or two of mix indoors is a nightmare.

Thanks, I'm enjoying this thread so far, hard to find a good topic to debate these days.

There are soo many misconceptions in this post. First, there is no way that organic growing is more expensive than chem growing. If you think it is you havent grown organic and thus should not be presenting you opinion on something you have no experience with ( i don't know if you have experience or not just stating that if you don't you shouldn't comment).

Second, conisdering that NPK means almost nothing in organics, the claim that it takes more to do the same thing is completly unfounded as you are comparing two completly different substances without a valid principle of conversion between the two.

Third, this is the organics forum, we care more about cannabis (quality) than yield. Even commercial organic growers show similar respect for the plant and the people who will consume it. therefore your claim that commercial growers wouldn't sacrifice for their plants and the people that consume them is bull shit. Move to northern cali and ill show you and ass load of people who grow commercially, organically, and with great consideration for the quality over the yield. this is of course in contrast to commercial growers who grow strains that yield big and smoke OK, who want money and show little love for their plants, who fully automate instead of spending their own time with the plants etc etc...

Finally, a lot of research has gone into organic growing since 1945 when the mainstream agricultural community new jack shit about working with the environment. Now we have a microbial understanding of how plants form a symbiotic relationship with their environments. Instead of cramming chemicals down its throat or adding organic matter and hoping the plant grows we now know we can greatly effect microbial populations and thus plant health and production. ACT effectively levels the playing field between organic and chem growers. Do a little research and you'll find organic growers achieving over 1.5 g/w thus negating your claim. The difference between a good chem grower and a good organic grower is a matter of knowledge. A chem grower knows pH, eC, ppm etc and organic grower must understand microbiology and plant biology. It takes more knowledge but you can produce the same amount of a better quality product.

 

[Lazyman]

My reasoning for being here was spurred by the OP, and my curiosity as to what organic pesticides were effective against mites. I was hoping there was some new thing I had not yet heard of, but there was not. I do really try to avoid spraying non-organic pesticides when I can, but sometimes ya just can't.

The rest of the thread sparked another question, seeing some knowledgable and devoted organics fans. I wanted to know why YOU liked organics, was it for quality or had a means been discovered yet to eclipse chem-based fert yields?

I will admit to being an information whore, and I do play devil's advocate sometimes just for a good debate, but I see this as a means to really dig into a serious topic and gather the best information. Please don't get all offended, I'm not trying to change your mind or start a fight.

Really, penn and teller told you organic and sustainable agriculture is a hoax? Well that's that then. But if you believe that, why are you on this forum? You must realize I or others would point out that the green revolution has actually been a disaster. We have not fed more people for free, we have merely externalized costs - to be paid at some point by us or ours.

I'm not going to pass judgement on every commercial grower who doesn't grow organic, and I would prefer they seek to minimize harm as the OP is attempting to do. They just don't need to do it on the organics forum, because it's a surefire way to pick a fight.

You are right that most organic food is bullshit - just like free range meat. We will not be able to eliminate these poisons from our food production until we change some habits.

 

[maryjohn]

Lazyman, this is the organic SOIL forum, why am I having to read your critique of organic hydro? I could have told you not to bother with that.

What experiences exactly are you bringing to this conversation?

c2, while I agree that in the long run and if you are frugal, organics is much cheaper, some organic interventions - like live predators - are more expensive than their chemical counterparts.

 

[Lazyman]

Nevermind Maryjohn, I'll clear out of this forum and leave it to you. My apologies for the off-topic posts and questions, won't happen again.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

this is another good reason why certain areas are better for growing cannabis than others... some places do not have crazy bugs nor an environment that allows molds and fungi to form on them nice herbs of ours.

dry, highland deserts are paradise, plenty of sun, just add water and good soil, and you are set.

won't even need the occasional tobacco infusion to keep some bugs away.

the best way to grow organics is to find the best environment free of pathogens to begin with.

maryjohn, I like your signature

peace

 

[CT Guy]

I think this is a good article for people transitioning from chemicals to organics. Maybe you're interested in becoming more organic in your practices. This may be a jumping off point. Many of you in this forum that are regular posters have been growing organically for years if not decades. You've got your soils and nutrients down pat. I think for people who are just starting out and figuring everything out, this may be a helpful thread.

Sure, organic is better, we all agree with that or we wouldn't be here.

 

[C21H30O2]

Nevermind Maryjohn, I'll clear out of this forum and leave it to you. My apologies for the off-topic posts and questions, won't happen again.

Don't leave too quick lazyman your reply to my last post was well presented, thought out and most of all civil. Doesn't matter if we have different opinions as long as your civil you are more than welcome to express your opinions and experiences. By the way I didn't do any research on you, the comment about the automation was off the top of my head and I mentioned only because I use to automate and when I started spending more time with my plants ie. hand watering they started doing much better. Anyway I understand what you are saying about organics, there is a lack of control that is why it takes planning knowledge and experience. Luckily we all have this lovely organic forum and its experienced members to help us out.You are right organic nutrients do take longer to break down and absorb by your plant that is why you "cook" your soil for 2 weeks to a month. The microbes break down the nutrients making them available for the plant. This process is easily continued with regular application of ACT. Nutrient delivery problem solved!!! The plants will uptake as much and as fast as other environmental factors dictate (light, temp, CO2 levels etc.)

Further, you can increase nutrient absorption by micronizing amendments. combine this with properly applied ACT and nutrient tea foliars and the plant wants for nothing.

my point is your right about bottle organics being problematic but true living organics with a well thought out and implemented system can rival chem in terms of yield and blow it out of the water in terms of taste combine that with its extremely low overhead costs and you've got a winner.

As for pests, I have found that Neem works extremely well IF and this is a BIG IF you blend it in a blender before application. I use to mix it in the bottle and just shake it up and I had spider mites all the time. Since using the blender I haven't seen a single mite or any mite damage.

 

[JackTheGrower]

this is another good reason why certain areas are better for growing cannabis than others... some places do not have crazy bugs nor an environment that allows molds and fungi to form on them nice herbs of ours.

dry, highland deserts are paradise, plenty of sun, just add water and good soil, and you are set.

won't even need the occasional tobacco infusion to keep some bugs away.

the best way to grow organics is to find the best environment free of pathogens to begin with.

maryjohn, I like your signature

peace

Yep preventative measures beat having to fix problems.

I believe most organic gardeners will agree that we do not aim to kill things but aim to create realms that the pests don't like as much as the next.

Plant health is the best pest control.

So I agree with growing under conditions.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I was wondering what problems people have..

Mold I discovered this year. Gnats I have had before. Ants are often wanting to move in with occasional large ant I find hanging off buds once in a while.

Are there dangers we should talk about? Something we need to use chemicals on?

 

[maryjohn]

a friend gave me some food grade DE, and I top dressed. have not seen gnats for a while.

lazyman, don't take my comments personally. I'm just annoyed there is a thread like this here. It belongs in any forum but this one.

 

[vonforne]

I use home made Napalm when I find any bugs. Nothing like the smell of Napalm when the lights come on.

v

 

[C21H30O2]

Healthy organic plants have a natural pest and mold resistance. When we started making our grow room sterile the billions of beneficial microbes that existed in the soil and the leaf surface disappeared. These microbes protect the plant like the secret service protecting Obama during a parade through Dallas. When something fucks with the plant -- their home -- they fuck with it.

 

[Voodoo]

Pesticides and Organic Growing - simple guide.

I posted this in the submissions area, but I really wrote it for my fellow organic soil/less growers.


Organic growers need a low toxicity method of control stronger than traditional IPM (integrated pest management) tactics. Too often growers are left with limited propagandized information, leading to bad decisions for the grow and possibly hazardous smoke. In this article we will focus on the effectiveness of use of low toxicity pesticides against typical plant predators and their half lives. We will also cover any negative effects the pesticides mentioned would have on biological life and earthworm populations.

Avoid Pesticides with Petroleum Distillates!
Most available pesticides today are mass produced by companies like SC Johnson and Bayer. These companies produce pesticides several months or years before the consumer applies them in a home. However, the pyrethroid family has a very short half life in water, typically averaging about 2 weeks. To combat this problem, major pesticide producers have combined their products with suspension agents made from petroleum distillates. You can find petroleum distillates in other things around the home, spray paint, gasoline, car wax and paint thinner. Obviously these solvents are harmful to plants and humans don’t typically do well either when they are exposed to them.

Avoid Pesticides with Piperonyl Butoxide!
Piperonyl Butoxide is a synergizing agent which disallows breakdown of pesticides through an insect’s bodily enzymes. This method of action dramatically increases a pesticide’s toxicity. Organic growers should look elsewhere as piperonyl butoxide is extremely toxic to worms. By contrast, piperonyl butoxide shows no negative effects on soil bacteria populations.

Avoid Systemic Pesticides!
Imidacloprid
Imidacloprid is a synthetic version of nicotine which is quite effective against nearly all forms of pest life. Imidacloprid poses no threat to earthworms. It has no effect on bacterial life at 250ppm, but at 500ppm and 1000ppm bacterial populations suffer greatly. The latter two cut the bacterial populations by half of that of the control group. This pesticide works by absorbing through the root system. Imidacloprid then travels through out the entire plant, effectively turning the plant into a pesticide container. Every part of the plant becomes toxic to pests at that point. There is a minor degree of toxicity associated with fruit or buds taken from a plant treated with imidacloprid. We encourage the use of non systemic pesticides as the pest professional industry does not use imidacloprid on non ornamental plants for this reason.

Pyrethroids:
Pyrethroids are a synthetically created group of broad spectrum pesticides based off the naturally occurring pesticide, pyrethrum which is found in Chrysanthemums. In layman’s terms a broad spectrum pesticide is a pesticide that kills anything with more than four legs. Pyrethroids make up a major portion of the commercial and residential pesticide market due to their lower toxicity to mammals than previous pesticides. There are three classifications of toxicity to mammals when referring to chemicals: “Danger,” “Warning” and “Caution.” “Danger” is the most toxic group, then “Warning” and finally the least toxic, “Caution.” As you might imagine, we’ll only be talking about caution label pesticides. It should be noted that all pyrethroids have an acute toxicity to aquatic life.

Bifenthrin
Bifenthrin is a commonly used pesticide on edible crops. It is very low in toxicity to mammals and boasts an impressive array of pests that it controls. It has been said that for acute treatment of spider mites, nothing compares to the knockdown of Bifethrin. Personally I like to use bifenthrin for a first spray followed by permethrin for a lasting knockdown effect a couple of days later. It has been noted that a very small population of spider mites are becoming bifenthrin resistant, though this is not common. Bifenthrin stays affixed to the growing medium and thus is not mobile in soil. Bifenthrin maintains a half life of 65 - 120 days, though observed effective life appears to be about 50 - 60 days in traditional outdoor pest control applications. In water suspensions, bifenthrin’s half life is 7 days and holds a pH of 6.7. It has been shown to greatly increase bacterial life populations over control, 5 times greater at 250ppm, 500ppm was 4 times greater and 1000ppm was 1.5 times greater than control. Bifenthrin is non toxic to earthworm populations as well. Due to the longer active half life of bifenthrin, I would suggest it is only used in the vegetative stages unless the plants are sprayed with clean water before harvest.
Dosage: .02oz - .5oz per gallon

Permethrin
Permethrin is a broad spectrum pesticide typically used on edible crops though it’s agricultural use has been scaled back as it also targets bees. It has no effect on earthworm or bacterial populations but is very effective against spider mites and typical plant pests. It has a very low toxicity to mammals, so low that it is used in health care industry to treat head lice and scabies in humans. Permethrin’s half life is roughly 40 days, making it acceptable for use in all stages of growth. As with bifenthrin, I suggest spraying treated plants with clean water before harvesting.
Dosage: .02oz - .5oz per gallon


Cyfluthrin
Cyfluthrin is another broad spectrum pesticide with no negative effects on the soil bacteria levels or earthworm populations. It works very well against spider mites and it has a very short half life; 13.5 days in loam with a pH of 5.8. By day 29, no measurable residues could be found in the soil. I would advise use of cyfluthrin as an acute control agent. It would also benefit in the later stages of flowering due to the short half life of the product.
Dosage: .02oz - .5oz per gallon

Cypermethrin
Cypermethrin is a commonly used “knock down agent” in the pest professional industry. Very few caution label pesticides show the immediate effect on pest populations that cypermethrin is known for. Cypermethrin initially shows a negative effect on soil microbe levels but rebounds to slightly over 20% increase in bacterial growth after two weeks. The half life of cypermethrin is 4-20 days. It is non toxic to earthworms and moderately effective against spider mites.
Dosage: .02oz - .5oz per gallon

Deltamethrin
Deltamethrin is a commonly used interior pesticide which is highly toxic to aquatic life, particularly fish. Deltamethrin kills worms and inhibits earthworm growth - organic growers beware! It is effective in the control of spider mites, but only about half as effective as cypermethrin in studies. It is also decently effective at controlling whiteflies. While effective, unless I was controlling whiteflies by spray application, I wouldn't waste my time with this product as any runoff will destroy your attempts at creating a beneficial microbial environment.
Dosage: .02oz - .5oz per gallon

Pyriproxyfen
Pyriproxyfen is an insect growth regulator which disrupts molting. It is not considered a part of the pyrethroid family. It is an effective white fly treatment but will kill earthworms if the soil is saturated. Pyriproxyfen works well in vegetables and fruit trees and does not contaminate fruits. It has a very low toxicity to mammals due to its method of action. Keep sprays limited to the leaves to keep the soil free of pyriproxyfen.
Dosage: 1.5oz per gallon


Feel free to ask about other pesticides. Ill do everything I can to stay on top of it.

 

[Voodoo]

Napalms not for plants, Napalm is for starting BBQs!

I would go further, and say that you have no science to back up the safety of these products when used for growing marijuana for the purpose of smoking. You have none because there is none. Tobacco is maybe close, but tobacco washes easily, unlike MJ buds. And indoors, almost nobody washes.

I was pretty disappointed when I saw the hate that followed my post. My apologies for assuming the definition of organic growing was the same in the medical marijuana industry as it was in the food industry.

By the way, for those of you who want to use Diatomaceous earth (which is a "Warning" label pesticide and isn't supposed to be used in an enclosed area due to the inhalation risk) are more than allowed to.

There is absolutely NO SCIENCE showing the long term effects of marijuana in conjunction with pesticide use. Marijuana is illegal. My recommendations are based on what the FDA/EPA allow for treatment of fruiting plants based on clinical studies. Despite my darkside nature of owning a pest control company, I try to be as eco conscious as possible about the products my techs are allowed to lay down on the soil. As a good rule of thumb, if the FDA/EPA deems it as unsafe to eat, its probably unsafe to vaporize (smoke, burn, whatever) as well.

Some of us want immediate solutions to our pest problems without harm to microbial levels and vermiculture. I was simply trying to educate based on product MSDS sheets, EPA environmental fate write ups and various lab results from Bayer and Dow.

It's science..

 

[jaykush]

sorry just had too...

 

[CT Guy]

Just commented on your submission, but if you could answer my questions in this thread, it might be a better forum for dialogue. Thanks!

 

[maryjohn]

I was pretty disappointed when I saw the hate that followed my post. My apologies for assuming the definition of organic growing was the same in the medical marijuana industry as it was in the food industry. That said, for those of you who want to use Diatomaceous earth (which is a warning label pesticide and isn't supposed to be used in an enclosed area due to the inhalation risk) are more than allowed to. But what do I know, right?


It's science..

First off, throwing the hate word around over people disagreeing you is, as I pointed out in my yankees analogy just a bit disingenuous. Not to mention nothing has been directed at you but rather at your statements.

Food grade DE is not a warning label pesticide as far as i know. The dangerous DE is processed and treated and contains far more dangerous respirable silicates. Food grade DE is just ground up plankton-like creature. Sprinkled on top of the soil, there is really no danger. It's used by many in NYC to control bed bugs.

As for whether we are applying a higher standard than food, why the hell not? You are smoking it and in most cases harvesting not that long after treating. So yeah, give a really wide berth.