Peach and Toad starting to grow

[peach-and-toad]

== So. April 12 - day 17 ==
temp: 77°F/25°C
RH: 50%

We lowered the light, which brought temps up a bit.





== Mo. April 12 - day 18 ==
morning temp: 78.4°F/25.8°C
RH: 50%

The temps were getting high again, so we installed the carbon scrubber without the filter and let it blow air out of the tent. It lowered the temps surprisingly good, we are at around 73.4°/23°C now. It also allows us to further lower the light, which now hangs at 3"/8cm. Also changed the position of the fan to blow from a distance directly on the plants, not sure if it's enough (see picture above).

We also watered them after RH dropped to 40% and the soil looked and felt very dry. This time with pure and less water and sprayed the soil first before watering. This way the soil soaked the water much better and didn't looked so colapsed today (tuesday).

evening temp: 74.1°F/23.4°C
RH: 50%




== Tu. April 13 - day 19 ==
temp: 73.9°F/23.3°C
RH: 50%

The smallies seem to get thirsty, today the soil feels dry again and at the evening the leaves started to drop. We made a fresh nutrition solution and watered the plants, a bit more than yesterday. A few roots are visible through the holes at the bottom.

 

[al70]

Hi p+t, maybe time for a transplant if ye can see the roots, goodluck.��

 

[DoubleTripleOG]

Princess Peach and Toadstool........somebody really loves Mario Brothers games, lol. Your off to a really good start. A little advice on the fan. Try to NOT have it pointing directly on the plants. But rather have it moving the air around the tent, which in turn as you've already noticed will make the plants move in the breeze some.

I like to have my fans pointing towards a corner of the room. Then the air they move is forced in all directions around the tent.

They definitely are big enough to put into bigger containers. I myself go from the size your in, to 3/4 gallon or gallon containers.

 

[peach-and-toad]

Princess Peach and Toadstool........somebody really loves Mario Brothers games, lol.

Oh yes. Especially Super Mario Kart 64 has keept us awake some nights already... And thanks about the tips for the fan, we'll put them into action.

Hi p+t, maybe time for a transplant if ye can see the roots, goodluck.

They definitely are big enough to put into bigger containers. I myself go from the size your in, to 3/4 gallon or gallon containers.

Ah cool, we had planned transplanting them last weekend, but thought to give them a little more time.

Two questions: Should we transplant them into their (planed) final home 4gal/15l soil bags. Or put them in 1.7gal/6.5l first and repot again later? (Or should we get other sizes?)

Bigger pots also means a bigger area occupied by the pots and bigger distance from plant to plant. Should we still leave them under the 125W CFL, which seems a little too weak already or start lighting with the 600W HPS?

 

[DoubleTripleOG]

I would go with the 1.7 gals. first, then up pot again as needed. I would also crank up that 600. Besides providing better growth rates, the 600 will help you get your environment in check for when you start to flower them.

 

[NoSocSlic]

My repotting schedule is seedlings in 8 oz cups then repot to 24 oz cups when they have 3 to 4 leaf sets, then 1.5 L bottles a week after I flip the lights. Doing it like that I maximize the soil and reduce the need for added nutrients. By the time the soil is depleted I am ready for the plants to start winding down anyway. Works for me.

 

[peach-and-toad]

after a busy week it continues:


== We. April 15 - day 20 ==
temp: 76.5-77°F/24.7-25°C
RH: 44%

Temps were rising and heightened the lamp a bit and watered them with a bit of water.
Later we took the time to transplant the smallies in 6.5l pots (the two mutants are in ~1.2l pots). We are using "organic soil", we found at a grocery store and added about 20% of coco to it for drainage. We are surprised how much fluffier this mix is, to the previous "cheap" soil.
Also we layered the ground with about half a finger of hydroton. The pots have 5 extra 1" holes in the bottom.
After transplantation we watered them with fresh nutes.





== Th. April 16 - day 21 ==
temp: 81-84°F/27-29°C
RH: 40%

We changed lighting to the 600W HPS on a 18/6 schedule. Since then we were constantly trying to keep temperatures in check... We had no choice but activate all our fans (a 6", 10" and 14" fan). The 6" and 10" both blowing directly at the light and later that day we put the 14" next to the half open door blowing air in. Now we could manage to keep the temperature close to 81°F/27°C while having the light at a 1-1.5 feet distance.





== Fr. April 17 - day 22 ==
temp: 81-82.4°F/27-28°C
RH: 40%

Watered and fed them. The plants seem to like the new light and pot (even with the whole wind).





== Sa. April 18 - day 23 ==
temp: 81°F/27°C
RH: 35%

The whole setup is quite windy and the plants are getting thick stems from it.





== So. April 19 - day 24 ==
temp: 80.2°F/26.8°C
RH: 30%

We are keeping a close eye to the temperatures and constantly try to change the positions of the fans or environment (windows/shading room) to avoid rising temperatures to much.
Overall we were quite unsatisfied with the whole setup. Too bad, we were also busy these days and couldn't give the smallies more attention.
Some of the plants showed some signs of underfeeding (getting yellow leaves).





== Mo. April 20 - day 25 ==
morning temp: 82°F/27.8°C
RH: 30%

After five days of hurricane, we decided to give vertically growing a try. We removed the reflector and hang the light "top down". Beneath it we installed the 14" fan blowing up and arranged the smallies around it, again in about 1 to 1.5 feet distance to the light.
Against our hopes we still had to run all of our fans. This time the two smaller ones blowing in, one from the side and one from the still half open door. Next we positioned the intake of our carbon scrubber over the light.
At least the temperature is more constant now and even a bit lower.
We also fed the smallies with full nutes solution.

evening temp: 78.8°F/26°C
RH: 37%

== Tu. April 21 - day 26 ==
morning temp: 79.2°F/26.2°C
RH: 45%

This morning we noticed that the smallies are starting to smell a bit

evening temp: 75.2°-78.8°F/24-26°C
RH: 38%





Things seem to calm down temps wise.. We are still a bit unhappy about the constantly half open door (lighting our room 18 hours a day) and having both small fans blowing air in, especially with the upcoming summer ahead. It somehow feels a little overkill with all the ventilation going on and seeing the wind moving leaves every few seconds. So we wonder if we are missing something? Or is it just us being a bit overprotective?

It would be great to be able to close the tent completely, especially later during flowering (and summer). Also to use the fans more as an reserve for hotter days and not keeping them running all the day (being quite loud).

Some ideas which come to our mind:
- using a longer duct for the carbon scrubber to blow the air out a bit further away instead of just blowing it out the top. (not sure if it's worth the trouble...)
- moving the tent a few inches to the front, to give the passive intake in the back more room to breathe (will do that definitely)
- Move the plants up from the ground on something like a table. (not sure if it makes sense, but it came to our mind)
- Make the carbon scrubber suck directly over the light. (saw that a few times)
- Cool down room by using solar foil on big south facing windows. (maybe you know something we can use, istead the foil?)
- Invest in a cool tube. (we read that cool tubes, should be avoided if possible and used if impossible to keep the temps down...)


so far and thanks
peach and toad

 

[al70]

Slightly higher temps. are ok once ye keep the humidity down, your figures are ok, goodluck ��

 

[DoubleTripleOG]

Here's a little chart that you can use as a guide. Following it will produce excellent results. The goal of it, is too keep your temp and humidity variables in the green.

 

[peach-and-toad]

Slightly higher temps. are ok once ye keep the humidity down, your figures are ok, goodluck ��

Here's a little chart that you can use as a guide. Following it will produce excellent results. The goal of it, is too keep your temp and humidity variables in the green.
View Image

thanks for the peace of mind you two. today the temps were pretty stable we'll relax and focus on other areas now

 

[NoSocSlic]

Awesome chart DTOG. My plants this run look rough. Mostly due to calcium deficiency. High temperature is what sterted that def. to appear. Seeing this chart, I am not in the green, unless I could raise my rh a bit. I'm sure that would help all the plants healthwise. On the otherside of the coin I only have 3 or 4 weeks to go until harvest! Its smelling yummy in my closet. I also have to keep the door to my grow open to control temps.

Bud porn!

right around day 30. Even in a less than ideal environment you can get through the grow.

 

[Kweku Ananse]

I actually just made quite a few posts re: VPD this morning in my thread titled my first grow crazy crash course in cannabis cultivation. I would recommend that your humidity levels are on the lower side than what they should be as shown in the chart.

I think you're getting very very very minor nutrient burn due to the dry air pulling too much water out of the leaves - which potentiates the fertilizer salts left behind, causing burn when you wouldn't expect it (e.g. when starting with low ppm).

I've seen symptoms like this and I've corrected it by lowering the temperature and increasing the relative humidity to achieve a vapor pressure deficit of 0.85. I've noticed that this alone increases the resistance to nutrient overdose and thus healthier plants because they hold more water and maintain lower fert ppm INSIDE the plant compared to low humidity "increasing" ppm inside the leaves.

I have built a self contained system via ducting to maintain proper levels since my dehum. can't fit in the tent with the plants (for me temps are great, rh is too high). You might need to build one like I have except put in an a/c AND a humidifier. I would run the drain hose of the a/c into the fill hole for the humidifier so you never have to fill the humidifier, just have to have an overflow drain for it (I assume cooling the air will generate more condensation than the plant will need to be made up by the humidifier). Then once the a/c loop is in place you can close the door of your tent and get a better constant environment. Plants love consistency. This closed loop eliminates the need for exhaust/scrubbers, and it helps to "catch" CO2 given off by sleeping plants. The issue is that one must continuously add CO2 to the environment when lights are on cause the plants will use it up, and then stop photosynthesizing.

Basically, you need more humidity I think, and you'll never achieve the level you need with the door open, and you'll never achieve the temp you need with the door closed unless you add a/c, which then means you'll again never achieve the humidity levels needed without a humidifier. I just spent around $400 to get my environment stable and I know that investment will pay off.

I'll get some pictures taken of my setup to help explain my idea, and I'll let you know when I have it up. It may help. It may not. It may inspire you to engineer your own HVAC system like I was inspired. either way I'm gonna say this one more time: TOO DRY.

Or I'm wrong - still new to this...

Luck!
-Kweku Ananse

 

[Kweku Ananse]

Slightly higher temps. are ok once ye keep the humidity down, your figures are ok, goodluck ��

I'm not trying to be vindictive but I have to say that this info is 100% backwards. As temp increases you MUST increase %rh or your plants will sweat all they can and suck up more from the roots. If you wanna go this route you will need to lower the ppm of your feed, and water more frequently. This sped up transpiration forces the roots to work harder, and stresses your plant more than a higher humidity would.

Imagine the desert, it's hot, dry and uncomfortable. The only way you feel good is slamming water glass after glass. Now imagine you have lemonade instead of water, the water goes right through you and the sugar potentiates inside you. This just makes you thirstier. Everyone knows that too much sugar is bad for you, just like too much fert is bad for plants. Cool yourself down, you sweat less, meaning that sugar is processed in tandem with the water and its used properly, just like plants on a proper VPD. That chart is my new best friend and it is the lock screen on my iPhone. Any time I wake my phone, the VPD chart is the first thing I see. religious, am I? LOL!

I would say that low humidity is better than high temps, But as temp increases, the lower threshold of %rh for optimal VPD rises, shrinking the working range of %rh. That chart disproves the quote by al70 in my post here. Just look at the chart until it starts making sense. The chart posted in this thread is calibrated x10, so the number you should be shooting for is 8.5.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Hope that helps!
-K. Ananse

 

[Kweku Ananse]

One final thought on getting your VPD in check, once the relative humidity goes up and the vapor pressure deficit goes down the plants will hold more water, therefore the roots take up less water and less nutrients, saving on costs.

Sorry for the triple post!
-Kweku Ananse

 

[Kweku Ananse]

Here this is a good read about temp/humidity/VPD as it pertains to growing cannabis specifically.

http://www.growweedeasy.com/temperature

-KA

 

[peach-and-toad]

@Kweku Ananse: Thanks for all that info. We are indeed experiencing some minor nutrition burn on some of the plants and they are quite thirsty (and/or water evaporates quickly). We have been watering them plain water today and will try to bring RH up a bit more.

Also we plan doing some LST in the next few days and hopefully find time for an update before the weekend.

Thanks for all!
peach and toad

 

[FiddlersGreen]

looks like momy and daddy having a trip with the kids..

if the kids were mutants. lol. jk. two of my seedlings looked exactly like those and didnt make it, keep a close eye on them and dont use any nutes. i tried to feed mine thinking it was somehow a deficiency and i think thats what broke the camels back.

 

[FiddlersGreen]

== Mo. April 20 - day 25 ==
morning temp: 82°F/27.8°C
RH: 30%

After five days of hurricane, we decided to give vertically growing a try. We removed the reflector and hang the light "top down". Beneath it we installed the 14" fan blowing up and arranged the smallies around it, again in about 1 to 1.5 feet distance to the light.
Against our hopes we still had to run all of our fans. This time the two smaller ones blowing in, one from the side and one from the still half open door. Next we positioned the intake of our carbon scrubber over the light.
At least the temperature is more constant now and even a bit lower.
We also fed the smallies with full nutes solution.

evening temp: 78.8°F/26°C
RH: 37%




== Tu. April 21 - day 26 ==
morning temp: 79.2°F/26.2°C
RH: 45%

This morning we noticed that the smallies are starting to smell a bit

evening temp: 75.2°-78.8°F/24-26°C
RH: 38%





Things seem to calm down temps wise.. We are still a bit unhappy about the constantly half open door (lighting our room 18 hours a day) and having both small fans blowing air in, especially with the upcoming summer ahead. It somehow feels a little overkill with all the ventilation going on and seeing the wind moving leaves every few seconds. So we wonder if we are missing something? Or is it just us being a bit overprotective?

It would be great to be able to close the tent completely, especially later during flowering (and summer). Also to use the fans more as an reserve for hotter days and not keeping them running all the day (being quite loud).

Some ideas which come to our mind:
- using a longer duct for the carbon scrubber to blow the air out a bit further away instead of just blowing it out the top. (not sure if it's worth the trouble...)
- moving the tent a few inches to the front, to give the passive intake in the back more room to breathe (will do that definitely)
- Move the plants up from the ground on something like a table. (not sure if it makes sense, but it came to our mind)
- Make the carbon scrubber suck directly over the light. (saw that a few times)
- Cool down room by using solar foil on big south facing windows. (maybe you know something we can use, istead the foil?)
- Invest in a cool tube. (we read that cool tubes, should be avoided if possible and used if impossible to keep the temps down...)


so far and thanks
peach and toad

couple of things...
dont worry abot the hurricane like you said the plants just get big strong stems as a result
the vertical light idea will help temp but is horribly inefficient at light dispersion.
the negative stuff you here about cool tubes seems to be specific to that design not reflection of air cooled reflectors as a whole. in my experience if you have any outside temps over 80 an air cooled reflector is a must. just dont get a cool tube. many have poor quality glass (uneven thickness causing uneven lighting) and junk reflectors (lots of wasted light)
. i bought this, http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-EasyCool-6-Reflector , and love it, very well defined footprint, no wasted light.
and on the subject of temperature, i cant recommend IR shielding enough, not only will it protect you from the eye in the sky but it has virtually eliminated my temperature fluctuation. I used the most thermally inefficient room in my house, 50 degrees in the winter, 95+ plus in the summer without the furnace or ac. i wallpapered the entire sun-facing outside wall and ceiling and brought in air supply from the basement (60-65 degrees year round) the base room temp went up to about 65-70 degrees on average with nothing on in there, but heres the cool part. when i set this up it was below freezing outside, below zero at night, right this second its 11:30 am it is 72 and rising. in February my lights on time high was 79 degrees, now its 81. So for a 50 to 80 degree temp change outside my room has only gone up 2 degrees.
also if your not already reverse your light cycles opposite to nature. lights on at night off during the day.

 

[peach-and-toad]

== Thu. April 30 - day 35 ==
temp: 77°F/25°C
RH: 30%

In our quest to to lower temps we decided to install a cool tube (horizontally) and to our surprise we were able to turn down all the fans (just one running for some air movement).
Also we watered them without nutes. ~50ml for each plant.





== Fr. May 1 - day 36 ==

The temps are lower, but still tend to rise as soon as the sun comes out. We have a south facing window and in the afternoon the temps get out of control and (sadly) we still need to open our tent and blow air in. To avoid those peak times we shifted the light time to the night time. Also we hang the cool tube vertically again. To complete our setup we also activated the carbon filter, so our carbon scrubber is sucking from the filter at the bottom through the tube and out of the roof.

To get some more experience (and better use of our light), we decided to train our smallies (except for one, as a comparison for later).
We looked at each of the plants and decided which method of training is suited best for it.
We are training a total of 4 plants. Three of the smallies enjoying some lst, from which one also got topped. Some fan leaves got also removed to give the side branches more light. On the other one we tried fimming - not sure if we succeeded and understood correctly how to fim (the plant definitely seemed stunned for a few days).
Trying to supercropp the main stem was impossible, like you said FiddlersGreen the stem is really hard and strong (thank you hurricane ). After a few days, when the side branches started to grow, we pinched some of them.
After the training we watered them with the normal amount of nutes and 100ml water for each one.


stretching

bleeding

training

 

[peach-and-toad]

== Sun. May 3 - day 38 ==
temp: ~78,8°F/26°C
RH: 30%

We watered them without nutes and ~100 ml per plant.





== Mon. May 4 - day 39 ==
temp: ~78,8 °F/26°C
RH: 40%

We began to water them with only half of the nutes and a bigger amount of water (~180ml each).





== Wed. May 6 - day 41 ==
temp: 75-77°F/24-25°C
RH: 60%

The temperature is still too high (nearly as high as us ).
As Kweku Ananse suggested we tried to higher the humidity, without much success and paid most of our attention to the temperature. On average our humidity hangs at ~35-40% which can drop to under 30%, when the smallies need water. So kind of a last resort, we decided to pick up a humidifier at our local grow shop. With success! Our temps went down to 75-77°F/24-25°C and the humidity up to ~60%. Even after closing the door of our tent, the temperature stayed around 77°F/25°C.
Also watered them again with half of the nutes and ~180ml of water.