passive plant killer

[jjfoo]

hey cat man,

you are entering into a religious debate

I agree that the PPK can be a lot of maintaince and set up, which is not fun for some of us.

I used a ppk for several runs. I prefer a less wet room for aesthetic reasons. I find using dtw top fed RW cubes on a table, to be far less overall work.

I'm not being critical of the PPK, just saying that there are other techinically equivlant ways to grow (assuming the goal is to produce a given quantity of bud with a fixed amout of resources).

I don't think my way is better than a PPK, just more to my preference. I also don't think it is inferior to a PPK set up. I've run both with almost identical yields.

I think you came across a bit harsh, but I also think some people are being sentimental about there system. It is human nature and we should expect this.

I lack tact myself and am not saying any of this to condem you. I find the debate/disagreement interesting.

 

[jjfoo]

another thing cat man,

a perched water table can form at the junction of the two different media

I'm not saying this is your case, but have you checked to see if the two different layers that are not mixed but touching cause this?

The theory I have tells me you will have a pwt above the bottom layer. But I think I have observed a media with an higher affinity to water (like clay) drain a layer like perlite. I'm not very confident of this, because it goes against my understanding of the science and I tend to think I am the one that is wrong, not the rest.

have you read Al Tapla's stuff on gardenweb? He is the first one that made me aware of a PWT.

 

[catman]

The theory I have tells me you will have a pwt above the bottom layer. But I think I have observed a media with an higher affinity to water (like clay) drain a layer like perlite. I'm not very confident of this, because it goes against my understanding of the science and I tend to think I am the one that is wrong, not the rest.

have you read Al Tapla's stuff on gardenweb? He is the first one that made me aware of a PWT.

Turface (clay) has more, smaller pores than perlite and thus has greater capillary action. In other words, it will draw water from perlite thus eliminating a PWT if there is one. Any PWT in the bucket I laid out will be from the water table actually being above the inner bucket. If the theory was taken to an extreme, I could have a PWT in the top of the bucket above the screened perlite, in the 50/50 layer, but rather I'm hoping to just keep the upper portion as consistently moist as possible while still only feeding by hand.

Yes, I've read Al Tapla's work about creating a bonsia medium which is where I learned about screening out the fine particles in Turface. He did it to create the "gritty mix." That is how he kept bonsia trees in very shallow containers without drowning them. PPK seeks a medium that wicks water so straight Turface MVP is good for this, but most perlite grades work almost as well for this purpose. The science is that capillary rise is due to the spacing between the individual particles and the pore sizes on the particles. Smaller pores like turface wick slower, higher, but water tends to more strictly follow moister areas. Larger pores like with perlite create a more uniform, faster flowing wicking action. Perlite is a staple medium throughout the horticultural industry so I don't think I'm the one being blasphemous.

 

[delta9nxs]

catman, here are some pics of the way i would do hand watered in one of these. i mentioned this several times earlier in the thread. last year sometime i believe.

essentially, you would use the top bucket as it is. the bottom bucket would have a single hole in it 3" down from the rim. you then water to a slight run off.

stratifying media is problematic in that it can create new pwt's higher in the bucket as jj was alluding to.

i think you are better off mixing it all uniformly. you will have better hydraulics in that the medium will behave the same in all areas of the container.

i used to screen all my turface but with the rice hulls i've found that it is not necessary. i am getting 35% plus air porosity with this mix.

 

[delta9nxs]

here is the root ball of the first pure turface/rice hull medium. this was 3 turface/1 rice hulls.

as you can see the roots are totally occupying the container. the bottom was a 1/2" deep layer of fat, snow white roots.

this mix is for those pulsing heavily.

editing to add that this ball is sawn in half so you can see the center of the medium.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, jj! i don't think you ever used a pulse system on yours. there is almost no maintenance. it is totally reliable. i have never had a single failure of the pulse system. in my room the floors are dry all the time as the liquid is completely contained in the system. if you just hand water you are not going to see the big yield increases that i have seen.

when you put a pulse system on one of these it is a whole new animal.

you also deviated significantly from the design i use. i don't remember you using any sidewall holes. these holes are more for gas exchange than root pruning. they really work.

it is not possible to compare what you did with a full on ppk system.

and i submit to all the idea that until you have actually operated one of these you do not have a valid comparison about performance.

you say that you did not get greater yields from your ppk than a hand watered bucket. i more than doubled my yields switching from hand watered IRB's to this device.

it seems that the only people who have negative comments about this system are the ones who have never tried it. everyone that has come to this thread so far and built a full on pulse fed and sub-irrigated fed and drained ppk has reported large yield increases.

maybe we should do a poll.

well, you have a good day, jj!

d9

 

[zeke99]

never mind.

 

[disciple]

 

[disciple]

 

[Snook]

Hey Zeke.. "double posts"

 

[jjfoo]

Turface (clay) has more, smaller pores than perlite and thus has greater capillary action. In other words, it will draw water from perlite thus eliminating a PWT if there is one.

ok so you are aware of the potential

I thought this was the case...I have seen things with a high affinity for water pull a perched wter table out of a rockwool cube.

Maybe the thing I read said you can possibly have a perched water table at the meeting of two diff media as opposed to 'will have'

 

[jjfoo]

ppk

I have run it with pulse watering. I liked it, but didn't like having to break it down for clean up. I don't like drilling, etc...I'm really not much of diy'er. I think the idea of wick for drainge is great, but sometimes a bit more work to set up. It is a trade off.



disciple,

you make it sound like your way is best and if you don't like it then you are not grasping something

why not just consider that that are many ways to grow that can get the same results and stop thing of one as good and bad, but rather personal pref

I for one prefer a table over many tubes, this isn't better or worse just my pref. We have diff values, so what is desirable for me isn't going to be the same as for you.

you sound like you have some beliefs and if others don't shar them they just don't get it...
just because you hve better luck with a ppk doesn't mean it will out yield other system
But yes you can gro

 

[jjfoo]

go through the above list and point out where PPK fails in any of these areas. also point out A BETTER WAY TO ACHIEVE THESE OBJECTIVES when growing trees with less work and less complication than by using a PPK.

what metrics should we use?

By my measurements the PPK is more steps than a placing cubes out of a box on a table and setting it for top water with a small amount of runoff. I mean all the setup and clean up, too.

For me at least. Maybe I don't drill efficiently. You are making a lot of assumptions to say there is no simpler way, period.

Have you seen commerical tomatoe farms using rockwool cubes on slabes? They grow huge plants with little meium usage and frequent top watering.


once again, i'm not saying the ppk is bad or good, just an option for some, but if we don't all like it don't go nazi on us...

 

[*mistress*]

even HANDWATERING ANY MEDIA IN POTS is more work.

?...

thred started w/ hand-watering.... see post #1...

only equipment needed:

5 gallon bucket:
free...

big bag perlyte:
few pieces of silvr...

ferts:
few pieces of silvr...

watering:
every other day: 1 gallon, pour `til drain, stop...

veggie:
until 3x3x3 - 4x4x4, minimum...

=

simple:tree....

2cents:
thred has evolved much since post #1...
began as `passive` plant `iller....
passive being no pumps, w/ wicking method to keep media moist....

many enhancements since.... see post #1...

1st... not posting this/that either/or opinion is true/false good/bad....

...maybe...there is... room in ...thred w/ 2600+ posts,,, for several opinions in open forum dialogue on internet... maybe...

there was, maybe is, certain degree of class in this thred....
that posters could contribute, or ask questions, or develop their own models....
w/out being slammed... in quest for variations of original post... see post #1....

some imaginary gardeners never tried passive plant `iller.... but, still, maybe...
contribute to thred.... maybe because thred is good thred, open to posters w/
questions, maybe their own form of answers to their own variations of post #1...
see post #1....

hand watering fails miserably against PPK

please define `fails`.... see post #1... the original `ppk` was hand-watered...

this is not to post that the variations since post # 1 have not been quantified
as improvements.... based, primarily on yeeld as the guage for `improvements`....
not necessarily ease of use... though some may find the finished build quite easy to use...

some may have abandoned pumps after the water pump/air pump/air diffuser quests of
`kbs` days.... some moved to ch0w mix... some to c0c0/perlyte.... some heard ~SYK~
& tried out 100persent perlyte....

this post being about there is this thred.... it is good because it is civil, seeks to evolve
& has many variations...

a gardener may find post #1 the best choice for their garden... or, an intermediate variation....
maybe around post #1000....

or, some imaginary gardeners may have never tried ppk..., & just
prefer the general open & innovative tone of the thred....

some like dwc, some feed to no run-off, or recycle run-off....
some like coc0, some try all sorts of mixes... some have
used only soil for 40yrs... all @ some point may have read
a post or few in ppk thred & found something they could use.... maybe tire valves, maybe pulce-feed, maybe turfase....maybe they stopped @ post # 1....

if there is `best`, maybe it is `best` for that gardener... the thred
is good because it is not static... & is generally open... to
all sorts of variations & recombinations & evolutions.... like pulse-feeding
from hand-watering....


...@ post #1...

What i'm soliciting here are any and all comments or pointers about any part of this effort. Any input or links to passive growing techniques are welcome. Anything anyone wants to show and tell is fine with me.

have fun! cheers

 

[disciple]

 

[disciple]

 

[gregor_mendel]

disciple:

What size upper containers are you using for your trees?

 

[disciple]

 

[disciple]

 

[mcfly420]

I have a few questions about the cloner if you don't mind...

How many ml's does the reservoir hold? Depth of turface(3-5"?)? How much of an air gap(1"?)? With the plants from seed, were they handwatered from above or directly into the reservoir? Were they difficult to keep up with as they grew? Did you test the ph/ppm of the reservoir?

Thanks

Need to search through some seeds for a good mother, so I want to keep them small the first time round. Can't seem to find the same containers you use though, but I'm looking for something similar that stacks the right distance apart and limits evaporation