hey, jj! let me take this opportunity to apologize for my part in our little misunderstanding.
i have cloned with coco in these cloners. they all rooted but did not look as good as the ones in turface do.
later, d9
passive plant killer
- Thread starter delta9nxs
- Start date
hey, jj! let me take this opportunity to apologize for my part in our little misunderstanding.
i have cloned with coco in these cloners. they all rooted but did not look as good as the ones in turface do.
later, d9
D
disciple
zeke99
Active member
I've got three from the original group that still look good on day 10 and 3 others that are in the same style container (with FNB), but with super coarse perlite as the medium. They look good too. In fact I took the covers off today for the first time and forgot to set the timer, so they were off for a good 60 minutes and still no wilting. I don't really have time to get into a whole thing right now. 5 huge plants to trim and transplanting, in addition to juggling family and a full time job. will be back soon.
Never easy to balance, but congratulations on all of the above.
disciple,
I'm responding to your question to D9, but you know you'll get his full attention...
I found that early and continuous defoliating does exactly what K33f says it would, that is tighten inter-nodes, and slow stretch. I was vigorous with one plant from early veg, and the end result was a very compact, squat plant. I ended up deliberately removing every second set of four limbs to try and open her up.
Then I defoliated only right before flower, and effectively limited stretch through the first week.
Then I started 'cleaning' the plant once between 21-34 days... (after stretch was pretty much done, and flower set was clearly established)... and had plants that were enormous.
I got the most stretch out of defoliating late, and the least by defoliating continuously.
Obviously strain dependent:
If you have room to allow the limbs to fall laterally (4x4ish), I'd lean towards a version of 2 EDIT: SHiT! I meant one!
If you need to keep things compact, I'd go with one defoliation one week before the flip (better light penetration to inner nodes, give it a week to recover from the abuse), and then again post flower set to maximize light to the developing flower material.
I'm thinking some kind of 50/50 hybrid with good stretch capacity here...
But if you were following the silliness of the K33f thread, and took your time to work through all this, and you were shooting for 4lbs in a 4x4... well you probably can make sense of my mumblings.
I'm responding to your question to D9, but you know you'll get his full attention...
I found that early and continuous defoliating does exactly what K33f says it would, that is tighten inter-nodes, and slow stretch. I was vigorous with one plant from early veg, and the end result was a very compact, squat plant. I ended up deliberately removing every second set of four limbs to try and open her up.
Then I defoliated only right before flower, and effectively limited stretch through the first week.
Then I started 'cleaning' the plant once between 21-34 days... (after stretch was pretty much done, and flower set was clearly established)... and had plants that were enormous.
I got the most stretch out of defoliating late, and the least by defoliating continuously.
Obviously strain dependent:
If you have room to allow the limbs to fall laterally (4x4ish), I'd lean towards a version of 2 EDIT: SHiT! I meant one!
If you need to keep things compact, I'd go with one defoliation one week before the flip (better light penetration to inner nodes, give it a week to recover from the abuse), and then again post flower set to maximize light to the developing flower material.
I'm thinking some kind of 50/50 hybrid with good stretch capacity here...
But if you were following the silliness of the K33f thread, and took your time to work through all this, and you were shooting for 4lbs in a 4x4... well you probably can make sense of my mumblings.
Quotes by Disciple
“Hello Delta9nxs (and other regulars) just got through all 158 or so pages to date. WOW!this is one hell of a thread. of more value to a keen novice than any published grow book. Really glad to hear that you (D9) pulled through the various medical complications!! The battle goes on! Lots of controversy surrounding modern medicine and big pharma..... but its unlikely a liver transplant woulda occurred 80 years ago!!!”
Hey Disciple! I admire the patience of anyone who wades through this mess! Thank you! My message to big pharma: “fuck you! I found the use of medical grade cannabis to be of inestimable efficacy in the treatment of my disease when used in unbelievable amounts whenever I feel like it. And no thank you, I prefer my beautiful, tasty, potent, home grown buds and hash to your little pills with low potency, no soul and no character.”
“We talked back on K33f's thread about a year ago. I ran defoliation in veg on plants going into a vertical garden called "The Cage" from Aristabc.com. K33f's defoliation worked REALLY well for that application and dramatically improved results (quality number one then quantity)
Doing trees now, the limitation is plant count. Prior to the complications with your stent you were doing (3) trials to determine when defoliation is most advantageous.
You had:
1. defol at the end of stretch (21 days or so)
2. defol at flip and then at 21 days
3. defol starting at 2 wks into veg.
I read through this whole thread because it fascinates me. I also wanted to make sure my question wasn't answered already before I posted.
You eliminated #2 as not advantageous for your setup with your plant. You said you are mainly doing #1 which is no touch until day 21 then full fan removal.
My question is....... (drum roll......) did you objectively determine that there was no significant advantage (in terms of yield/quality) by beginning defoliation in veg for your setup and the way you grow? Your beautiful trees are similar in shape to what I'm trying to do and our lighting regimes are also similar (but I use vertical 600Ws on all 4 sides of each tree and have a plan to stack extra 6's down the center so some plants will have 1200W from a line source on some sides)”
Well, with both 2 and 3 I got an increase in yield but not much. What I did get was a lot of extra work. Much more time spent df'ing and cleaning up. Treatment #3 was the most labor intensive. Both in terms of df'ing and trimming. I don't think that it is suitable for trees. It does control ultimate size but I feel it cost me yield compared to method #1 because I believe that it stunted root growth. When started this early in veg it radically increased ramification. A whole lot of smaller buds instead of a few larger ones.
Greatly extended trim time. Treatment #2 was a compromise that did limit stretch but I feel hurt yield compared to #1. again because of root growth. I had suspected that root growth was largely over with by the end of stretch and this was confirmed by several aero heads who get to stare at roots all day long. They said that they observed some root growth throughout life but that it really slowed down after stretch. I think treatment #3 is best used in smaller grows with limited headroom and horizontal lighting.
I settled on treatment #1 as I feel it let the plant reach maximum stature and was the least amount of work to accomplish. I think it is best suited for vertically lit large plants. I still needed to control size in my space so I began vegging less and less time until I got to 4 weeks. At 4 weeks I am getting about 30-32”. I top the meristem about 4 or 5 nodes down just before flower. This strongly shifts the auxins to the remaining branches just as the plant is going into stretch. Also limits height keeping more of the bud sites in the premium light. It lets the roots reach maximum potential. I'm usually go to about 24-25 days into flower before the one time df'ing. I am taking all the large, fully expanded leaves off and leaving most small ones growing out of forming buds. At this time I thin the weak growth out of the interior and any wimpy looking buds. This sets the stage for some massive budding. Mrs delta and I trimmed a pounder in 2 hours recently with scissors.
“I posted pics back during the battle on K33fs thread of my little guys going into the vert system so I am very well aware of how good it can be... but then the goal there was 4 - 5 lbs in a 4x4 grow tent using 1600W (4x400W vertical array).
My pics in the defoliation thread showed 2 beer cups. A non-defoliated rooted cut in perlite with one main stalk and no branches. A second defoliated cut in a beer cup full of perlite with a couple rounds of defoliation (obviously started in veg) had a main stalk and then (4) to (5) branches coming up about the same length as the main stalk. If both were put directly into flower, obviously the (5) - branch cut would blow away the un-touched cutting.... plus the quality of the inner bud-sites would be way higher. This is exactly what happened and what was observed after harvest. The catch was longer veg times (and more plants on hand).
the objectives with my trees (and yours plus your friends in this thread) are obviously waaaay different. Just wondering if you really satisfied yourself that defol in veg was not really beneficial with your strain in your setup grown as trees? I have no doubt you could just look at what was happening (even with the jungle result you got when you had to go in for the surgery) and know whether it was gonna work for you....
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR EVEN READING THIS!!!!!!”
I think i'm pretty much done with experimenting with df'ing. This is working very well for me without increasing my workload too much. We fit into a category of medium size growers where we have to do everything ourselves but still have enough volume to make us work at it. This is part of my streamlining process. I spend a little time df'ing but less time trimming. It blows up the buds nicely. And you don't need to thank me for anything, I enjoy reading and talking about growing. It's become my hobby too!
“btw: i grew out Nuken from CC Ken. Picked up the seeds in person from the same location you got the Nuken crosses from. So much seed drama in that part of the world. Nuken was ok.... it was popular with recreational users but the Kushes (a million names here but most likely all the same plant) are really favored by the medical crowd. Another cut-only sat-cross is called Sweet Skunk and that is one of the most desirable med strains. If you wanna do seeds again, and already have a nice Kush selection, I'd really suggest you look at Chimera's stuff. Checkout he m p de po t do t c om although not sure how you'd get em to send them down from canada. Anyway you can find one of his lines that is 1/2 sweet skunk. Another really good med strain is mental floss and yields well too... the dispensary scene around where you got the CCK seeds from is really evolved and selective. I have no experience in the cali scene..... but the elite connoisseur gardeners are taken very seriously by the aforementioned dispensaries and mental floss (plus other chimera work) are held in very high regard.”
more pot snobs, eh? That shit is just getting started here. Every 18 year old dude around is an expert on connoisseur grades and elites. If you don't believe it just ask them. Everyone jealously guarding there top secret strain. The whole seed scene worldwide is out of the realm of reality and common sense and will never recover. Thanks for the tips. I'm buying some more beans soon. I'm kinda on a binge after growing one strain for 8 years. I need variety now.
“Rene is extremely well regarded and basically impossible to get a cut of unless you are really hooked in. I dabbled on the outer periphery (and I mean way outer edge of the outer periphery) of the elite cut scene (I have actually touched a growing Rene plant, a sweet skunk plant, special K plant etc) but did not take any cuts of them and do not have any genetics on hand. I may have had an opportunity to have a cut of something at one time but it becomes a very sensitive issue if you are given a cut of anything.... someone is going to be pissed off... you have to be very quiet about it.... and the thing is I had very little to contribute back in return. Some of the people who have them are like high strung race horses - capable of performance to the extreme and extremely valuable but a little sensitive. I do not have the appreciation or palate to really distinguish the quality of the high, the distinctive notes of the taste etc. so it's locally available kush cuts for me at this point. may get into some of the available Chimera seeds in the near future...”
Have you tasted the rene? You saw my pic, how close is it to what you saw? It is so similar to the dr gt g13 that I think their mommas had the same postman. The og nukush is a big strong heavy budding plant too. I will check chimeras stuff, thank you!
“Thank you for any answers you care to post and for this amazing thread and I've got some pics following of some little Kush plants being raised for a tree run. The first shot is transplanting rooted cuts. The 2nd and third are 2 wks later. Hempy now. Big buckets (5 gal) will be top fed with wicks extending into the catch bucket/drain to eliminate PWT”
You're welcome! Thanks for the pics. If I were running dtw I would do it just like that. The ppk can be built and operated like an “improved” hempy by building the top with the tailpiece exactly as you see it here. Take the bottom bucket and drill a hole 3” down from the rim as an overflow. No valve installed in the bottom unless you plan on converting to float control later. Then water to slight run off. I mean just a little so you know it's topped. This done daily keeps salt build up under control and the plant will feed from the res in between waterings. This constant availability of water and nutrients enhances growth without drowning roots. If you drill a 7/16” hole you can use an intact tire valve for a goof plug later if you switch to a float control.
Well, thanks again for your patience in reading this monster and the info. I gotta go whack one now.
later
“Hello Delta9nxs (and other regulars) just got through all 158 or so pages to date. WOW!this is one hell of a thread. of more value to a keen novice than any published grow book. Really glad to hear that you (D9) pulled through the various medical complications!! The battle goes on! Lots of controversy surrounding modern medicine and big pharma..... but its unlikely a liver transplant woulda occurred 80 years ago!!!”
Hey Disciple! I admire the patience of anyone who wades through this mess! Thank you! My message to big pharma: “fuck you! I found the use of medical grade cannabis to be of inestimable efficacy in the treatment of my disease when used in unbelievable amounts whenever I feel like it. And no thank you, I prefer my beautiful, tasty, potent, home grown buds and hash to your little pills with low potency, no soul and no character.”
“We talked back on K33f's thread about a year ago. I ran defoliation in veg on plants going into a vertical garden called "The Cage" from Aristabc.com. K33f's defoliation worked REALLY well for that application and dramatically improved results (quality number one then quantity)
Doing trees now, the limitation is plant count. Prior to the complications with your stent you were doing (3) trials to determine when defoliation is most advantageous.
You had:
1. defol at the end of stretch (21 days or so)
2. defol at flip and then at 21 days
3. defol starting at 2 wks into veg.
I read through this whole thread because it fascinates me. I also wanted to make sure my question wasn't answered already before I posted.
You eliminated #2 as not advantageous for your setup with your plant. You said you are mainly doing #1 which is no touch until day 21 then full fan removal.
My question is....... (drum roll......) did you objectively determine that there was no significant advantage (in terms of yield/quality) by beginning defoliation in veg for your setup and the way you grow? Your beautiful trees are similar in shape to what I'm trying to do and our lighting regimes are also similar (but I use vertical 600Ws on all 4 sides of each tree and have a plan to stack extra 6's down the center so some plants will have 1200W from a line source on some sides)”
Well, with both 2 and 3 I got an increase in yield but not much. What I did get was a lot of extra work. Much more time spent df'ing and cleaning up. Treatment #3 was the most labor intensive. Both in terms of df'ing and trimming. I don't think that it is suitable for trees. It does control ultimate size but I feel it cost me yield compared to method #1 because I believe that it stunted root growth. When started this early in veg it radically increased ramification. A whole lot of smaller buds instead of a few larger ones.
Greatly extended trim time. Treatment #2 was a compromise that did limit stretch but I feel hurt yield compared to #1. again because of root growth. I had suspected that root growth was largely over with by the end of stretch and this was confirmed by several aero heads who get to stare at roots all day long. They said that they observed some root growth throughout life but that it really slowed down after stretch. I think treatment #3 is best used in smaller grows with limited headroom and horizontal lighting.
I settled on treatment #1 as I feel it let the plant reach maximum stature and was the least amount of work to accomplish. I think it is best suited for vertically lit large plants. I still needed to control size in my space so I began vegging less and less time until I got to 4 weeks. At 4 weeks I am getting about 30-32”. I top the meristem about 4 or 5 nodes down just before flower. This strongly shifts the auxins to the remaining branches just as the plant is going into stretch. Also limits height keeping more of the bud sites in the premium light. It lets the roots reach maximum potential. I'm usually go to about 24-25 days into flower before the one time df'ing. I am taking all the large, fully expanded leaves off and leaving most small ones growing out of forming buds. At this time I thin the weak growth out of the interior and any wimpy looking buds. This sets the stage for some massive budding. Mrs delta and I trimmed a pounder in 2 hours recently with scissors.
“I posted pics back during the battle on K33fs thread of my little guys going into the vert system so I am very well aware of how good it can be... but then the goal there was 4 - 5 lbs in a 4x4 grow tent using 1600W (4x400W vertical array).
My pics in the defoliation thread showed 2 beer cups. A non-defoliated rooted cut in perlite with one main stalk and no branches. A second defoliated cut in a beer cup full of perlite with a couple rounds of defoliation (obviously started in veg) had a main stalk and then (4) to (5) branches coming up about the same length as the main stalk. If both were put directly into flower, obviously the (5) - branch cut would blow away the un-touched cutting.... plus the quality of the inner bud-sites would be way higher. This is exactly what happened and what was observed after harvest. The catch was longer veg times (and more plants on hand).
the objectives with my trees (and yours plus your friends in this thread) are obviously waaaay different. Just wondering if you really satisfied yourself that defol in veg was not really beneficial with your strain in your setup grown as trees? I have no doubt you could just look at what was happening (even with the jungle result you got when you had to go in for the surgery) and know whether it was gonna work for you....
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR EVEN READING THIS!!!!!!”
I think i'm pretty much done with experimenting with df'ing. This is working very well for me without increasing my workload too much. We fit into a category of medium size growers where we have to do everything ourselves but still have enough volume to make us work at it. This is part of my streamlining process. I spend a little time df'ing but less time trimming. It blows up the buds nicely. And you don't need to thank me for anything, I enjoy reading and talking about growing. It's become my hobby too!
“btw: i grew out Nuken from CC Ken. Picked up the seeds in person from the same location you got the Nuken crosses from. So much seed drama in that part of the world. Nuken was ok.... it was popular with recreational users but the Kushes (a million names here but most likely all the same plant) are really favored by the medical crowd. Another cut-only sat-cross is called Sweet Skunk and that is one of the most desirable med strains. If you wanna do seeds again, and already have a nice Kush selection, I'd really suggest you look at Chimera's stuff. Checkout he m p de po t do t c om although not sure how you'd get em to send them down from canada. Anyway you can find one of his lines that is 1/2 sweet skunk. Another really good med strain is mental floss and yields well too... the dispensary scene around where you got the CCK seeds from is really evolved and selective. I have no experience in the cali scene..... but the elite connoisseur gardeners are taken very seriously by the aforementioned dispensaries and mental floss (plus other chimera work) are held in very high regard.”
more pot snobs, eh? That shit is just getting started here. Every 18 year old dude around is an expert on connoisseur grades and elites. If you don't believe it just ask them. Everyone jealously guarding there top secret strain. The whole seed scene worldwide is out of the realm of reality and common sense and will never recover. Thanks for the tips. I'm buying some more beans soon. I'm kinda on a binge after growing one strain for 8 years. I need variety now.
“Rene is extremely well regarded and basically impossible to get a cut of unless you are really hooked in. I dabbled on the outer periphery (and I mean way outer edge of the outer periphery) of the elite cut scene (I have actually touched a growing Rene plant, a sweet skunk plant, special K plant etc) but did not take any cuts of them and do not have any genetics on hand. I may have had an opportunity to have a cut of something at one time but it becomes a very sensitive issue if you are given a cut of anything.... someone is going to be pissed off... you have to be very quiet about it.... and the thing is I had very little to contribute back in return. Some of the people who have them are like high strung race horses - capable of performance to the extreme and extremely valuable but a little sensitive. I do not have the appreciation or palate to really distinguish the quality of the high, the distinctive notes of the taste etc. so it's locally available kush cuts for me at this point. may get into some of the available Chimera seeds in the near future...”
Have you tasted the rene? You saw my pic, how close is it to what you saw? It is so similar to the dr gt g13 that I think their mommas had the same postman. The og nukush is a big strong heavy budding plant too. I will check chimeras stuff, thank you!
“Thank you for any answers you care to post and for this amazing thread and I've got some pics following of some little Kush plants being raised for a tree run. The first shot is transplanting rooted cuts. The 2nd and third are 2 wks later. Hempy now. Big buckets (5 gal) will be top fed with wicks extending into the catch bucket/drain to eliminate PWT”
You're welcome! Thanks for the pics. If I were running dtw I would do it just like that. The ppk can be built and operated like an “improved” hempy by building the top with the tailpiece exactly as you see it here. Take the bottom bucket and drill a hole 3” down from the rim as an overflow. No valve installed in the bottom unless you plan on converting to float control later. Then water to slight run off. I mean just a little so you know it's topped. This done daily keeps salt build up under control and the plant will feed from the res in between waterings. This constant availability of water and nutrients enhances growth without drowning roots. If you drill a 7/16” hole you can use an intact tire valve for a goof plug later if you switch to a float control.
Well, thanks again for your patience in reading this monster and the info. I gotta go whack one now.
later
Last edited:
D
disciple
Quotes by disciple
“watered to runoff” means from the top of the container, right? So the reservoir is filled by first pouring through the medium?”
yes
“can perlite be used/will it be sufficient for the media wick? Does perlite have wicking properties that will allow it to be used as a media wick?”
Perlite is a unique substance and needs to be handled differently to some extent. Perlite has no usable internal porosity. While there are pores internally they are sealed. This is why perlite floats. So all usable porosity is on the outside of each piece in the surface pockets formed by breaking it apart. It does have a decent wicking potential just not as much as other substances like turface, coco, or vermiculite.
Perlite has very little cation exchange capacity. This means no reserve storage capability for nutrients.
Perlite when used alone dries out very fast and needs a heavier watering schedule to keep it wet.
Look around for pics of plants growing in 100% perlite and you will almost universally see tip burn. I'm not exactly sure why this is but I feel it is connected to the issues of cec and moisture content in the top of the medium.
I have had a room full of hempy's with some filled with 100% turface and some filled with 100% perlite. All the perlite plants exhibited tip burn and none of the turface ones. All plants were being top watered by hand daily.
I began mixing other substances with the perlite and the tip burn disappeared.
I think that if you were hand watering one of these devices used as an improved hempy you should increase frequency of watering or add something with better water retention and a significant cec.
Google “perlite culture” for some examples of plants being grown in pure perlite. They all have automated watering done frequently. Some are continuous drip but I feel a pulse system which allows the medium to be relieved of continuous input will create a better wetting profile.
If you want to hand water perlite mix in around 25% turface, diatomaceous earth, coco, or vermiculite.
3 parts turface to 1 part rice hulls is working really well but you could substitute perlite for the rice hulls and get similar performance.
later, d9
“watered to runoff” means from the top of the container, right? So the reservoir is filled by first pouring through the medium?”
yes
“can perlite be used/will it be sufficient for the media wick? Does perlite have wicking properties that will allow it to be used as a media wick?”
Perlite is a unique substance and needs to be handled differently to some extent. Perlite has no usable internal porosity. While there are pores internally they are sealed. This is why perlite floats. So all usable porosity is on the outside of each piece in the surface pockets formed by breaking it apart. It does have a decent wicking potential just not as much as other substances like turface, coco, or vermiculite.
Perlite has very little cation exchange capacity. This means no reserve storage capability for nutrients.
Perlite when used alone dries out very fast and needs a heavier watering schedule to keep it wet.
Look around for pics of plants growing in 100% perlite and you will almost universally see tip burn. I'm not exactly sure why this is but I feel it is connected to the issues of cec and moisture content in the top of the medium.
I have had a room full of hempy's with some filled with 100% turface and some filled with 100% perlite. All the perlite plants exhibited tip burn and none of the turface ones. All plants were being top watered by hand daily.
I began mixing other substances with the perlite and the tip burn disappeared.
I think that if you were hand watering one of these devices used as an improved hempy you should increase frequency of watering or add something with better water retention and a significant cec.
Google “perlite culture” for some examples of plants being grown in pure perlite. They all have automated watering done frequently. Some are continuous drip but I feel a pulse system which allows the medium to be relieved of continuous input will create a better wetting profile.
If you want to hand water perlite mix in around 25% turface, diatomaceous earth, coco, or vermiculite.
3 parts turface to 1 part rice hulls is working really well but you could substitute perlite for the rice hulls and get similar performance.
later, d9
hi, slimm! both substances have a cec of between 20-30 meq/100, which is considered ideal for most agricultural purposes. no treatment is necessary with either.
this is why i ditched the pine bark. while that mix is growing a nice plant pine bark needs a nitrogen treatment. that plus the soaking and separating led me in a different direction.
you don't have to do anything to the rice hulls/turface except rinse it well.
d9
Slimm
Member
Cool. Would you use that mix in hand watered hempies or would you alter the makeup and how? I like coco with a little perlite but it requires initial buffering. It seems the turface / rice hulls may make my setup even simpler.
hi, if you are using a standard hempy with the single hole i would use it at the same ratio.
MedScientist
Active member
Very Nice DevilWeed! Nice pics devilweed.
A horizontal scrog. Two days ago:
zeke99
Active member
Delta9, I think what happened is that I forgot to fully drain (tilting to eliminate the pwt) the turface during the initial prep. process. It's the only thing I can come up with. It's not the wicking material or the plant. It's not the smaller "latch" container. Humidity was never above 55% in the room with the clones. It's a small, empty, clean bedroom, shades pulled, no mildew on the window glass. One of three that survived has started to slowly yellow. The covers have been off for two days. none of the perlite cuts have wilted or rotted. the perlite that i use is graded as coarse. big pieces, rinsed to remove the dust. i'll take some more in a few days and put them in turface.
