Outdoors plants...soft or hard rock phosphate?

[NUG-JUG]

Please don't anybody get offended by these words.
They're not ment to.

All I know is that I was raised in a Hunting and Fishing family.
I've seen more dead animals of different kinds than most of
you ever will. There's even a few that I can identify by the
smell of their blood alone. Not a pretty picture I know.

Unless, you plan on living on Tofu burgers or
rabbit food all your life just know that people
do eat fish,meat,fowl, etc.

As long as the bones are steamed or sterilized
it's all good. At least it's better using bone meal than
using fertilizers and fertilizers derived from the oil.

I'm not offended at all that's a cool skill to have man. Hunters are some of the enviroment's best stewards. Back to topic though the phosphorous I get from bones is great, but the fact that it's steam-cleaned doesn't erase the horrors of how that animal was raised.

 

[guest2012y]

Please don't anybody get offended by these words.
They're not ment to.

All I know is that I was raised in a Hunting and Fishing family.
I've seen more dead animals of different kinds than most of
you ever will. There's even a few that I can identify by the
smell of their blood alone. Not a pretty picture I know.

Unless, you plan on living on Tofu burgers or
rabbit food all your life just know that people
do eat fish,meat,fowl, etc.

As long as the bones are steamed or sterilized
it's all good. At least it's better using bone meal than
using fertilizers and fertilizers derived from the oil.

All cool here. I understand that some people nut. It's something I taste for sure,just as fish can be tasted also. I taste it anyway.

 

[C21H30O2]

Why its the slaughter of fish more palatable than the slaughter of a mammal? Because its closer biologically to humans. For that matter what about plants? Plants are alive. its a matter of degrees and thus subjective. an aesthetic choice?

 

[guest2012y]

Why its the slaughter of fish more palatable than the slaughter of a mammal? Because its closer biologically to humans. For that matter what about plants? Plants are alive. its a matter of degrees and thus subjective. an aesthetic choice?

Interesting.....I'd say that's part of my trip. I tend to feel balance and flow with it.....I'm far from perfect at it.

Bear in mind being aware of overfishing,overgrazing,etc. All that shit matters to me.
Most importantly the end result from the individual grower is where it matters,how does that product taste,smell,burn,smoke,stone,etc......I don't know I'm stoned.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

I wish i knew you guys secret. I want to grow my wonderful bluebery mom completely organic outdoors and ive found that impossible to do.

Every time i try to use organic ingredients - fish emulsion, bone meal/blood, alfalpha, whey - those ingredients ring the dinner bell for every animal around here. Skunks, raccoons, opossums, foxes, deer, minks all will dig the plant strait up to get to the goodies they smell. Once after discovering every plant being dug up, i was replanting and when i finished, i walked back toward the first plant i replanted and there was a black bear that took his huge paw and peeled up plant and all with one big swipe and began eating the dirt. I hit him with my shovel and threw rocks at him but i couldnt even run the big fuker off because in the end, he knew he could take me.. The bastarde dug them all up as soon as i left.

I tried using a 1' square of chiken wire around the base of the plants and that kept some of them from digging it up, (not that jackass bear) but they would break the plants in the effort.

any suggestions.

 

[mad librettist]

Bear in mind being aware of overfishing,overgrazing,etc. All that shit matters to me.

Then stop eating anything or using anything from the sea. At least on land, we eat grazers. Each pound of meat represents a massive amount of plant biomass. Absent subsidies for corn, beef would become very scarce and very expensive. In the sea, we eat predators to which we have contributed zero nutritional input. So each grazer eaten by a predator required a multiple of its biomass, then each predator eats a large mount of grazers. So your fish represents even more biomass per pound than your steak. Eating fish or using fish from the ocean is just about the worst thing you can do. Farmed fish can be a disaster as well if they are predator species or if poorly managed. (find yourself a sustainable tilapia farm)

D.S. Toker - You need a compost pile, or no-dig methods (see Fukuoka), or some other way not to use carnivore candy. It's not so hard.

Also floating row covers are great when deer are about and there is not much food around. When the plants get bigger they should leave it alone.

also - GEESE! get a a gaggle of geese! they will kick the shit out of a bear.

 

[big ballin 88]

I too think guano would be a good idea for outdoors. I used to use rainbow mix when we grew outdoors down here. But than again if i had my choice nowadays i like sticking to things from the water. Better yet i rather recycle anything i may have killed fish or boar. Don't make a difference to me, i believe if you respect your kill, you'll get the most out of it.

 

[mad librettist]

I too think guano would be a good idea for outdoors. I used to use rainbow mix when we grew outdoors down here. But than again if i had my choice nowadays i like sticking to things from the water. Better yet i rather recycle anything i may have killed fish or boar. Don't make a difference to me, i believe if you respect your kill, you'll get the most out of it.

That's some very good local stewardship, gotta respect it (and envy your access to hunting). Right in my backyard is an overpopulation of deer getting sloppy enough I spot them while walking dogs with the wind at my back. They need the selective kiss of a bow or slug (too densely populated to risk rifles) to stay healthy.

But guano? bat poo, shipped in from far, far away, while the waste from your kitchen and the plants all around you go unused? Seems dissonant to me.

 

[big ballin 88]

Hey ML, i know what you mean. Our deer down here are tiny and love running around during all seasons but general gun. In my area the only way you can really get out and hunt is shotgun and slug. I'm not complaining i took my first hog at 75yds. 243lbs with a shot right to the head. Luckily we can go hunting year round down here if you have property, but thats for hog.

Guano does have its benefits and i think outdoors is it. Granted it will cost some money, but we save on so much as organic growers that the price for a little guano goes a long way. Especially with how it breaks down over time. Its not for everyone, but its can defiently work.

 

[mad librettist]

you know chicken shit does the same thing right?

Fukuoka used it to great effect, just scattering it here and there. But straw and hay are your friends too. With a no-dig approach you P supply is not an issue after your food webs are balanced.

If you have repeated access to a plot (not guerilla style), you can do so much with so little, and take it all from your local pool of resources. Adding guano really seems like gilding the lily, wouldn't you say?

 

[big ballin 88]

I should've thought about the straw and hay thing. Good idea! I have more poppy stems than i know what to do with. They grind down to a straw and i can see the benefit if i soaked in fish or seaweed.

The whole reason i used the rainbow mix was it was 7 bucks and i was growing 20ft up in the trees. I'm not Tarzan but climbing up and down to water was enough so i thought the mix would last a season and it did. What about wood ashes? I could just save up all my ashes from joints haha...

Also in my mind chicken or bat shit are on the same level i'd have to buy one or the other. I still believe bat guano has its benefits just like perlite has its benefits. Are they optimal? Probably not, but they have been proven to work. I don't believe the high needs of P and if it proves it's deficient i'll spray with some Sea Kelp.

 

[mad librettist]

oh bat guano is optimal for growing right away all right.

but I weigh that against other factors.

perlite I don't like outside. Winds up looking like a styrofoam spill.

your up in the trees growing is a great example of appropriate guano use, IMO. Indoors I get it too, although I don't use it.

but in the ground, outside? $$$$$$!

 

[guest2012y]

I wish i knew you guys secret. I want to grow my wonderful bluebery mom completely organic outdoors and ive found that impossible to do.

Every time i try to use organic ingredients - fish emulsion, bone meal/blood, alfalpha, whey - those ingredients ring the dinner bell for every animal around here. Skunks, raccoons, opossums, foxes, deer, minks all will dig the plant strait up to get to the goodies they smell. Once after discovering every plant being dug up, i was replanting and when i finished, i walked back toward the first plant i replanted and there was a black bear that took his huge paw and peeled up plant and all with one big swipe and began eating the dirt. I hit him with my shovel and threw rocks at him but i couldnt even run the big fuker off because in the end, he knew he could take me.. The bastarde dug them all up as soon as i left.

I tried using a 1' square of chiken wire around the base of the plants and that kept some of them from digging it up, (not that jackass bear) but they would break the plants in the effort.

any suggestions.

I used to make it a point to bring my dog and arrive at the garden site with a bladder full. Me and Rover would piss all over the surrounding shrubs and trees. Never had a thing touch my plants in the most remote reaches of the wilds.

 

[NUG-JUG]

I used to make it a point to bring my dog and arrive at the garden site with a bladder full. Me and Rover would piss all over the surrounding shrubs and trees. Never had a thing touch my plants in the most remote reaches of the wilds.

lol Was just about to ask..anyone tried peeing all over the site? Gotta make sure it's a deep golden one.

 

[DARC MIND]

id use both soft rock and steamed fish bone, maybe use the rock dust down low and the bone near the surface. i also beleive soft rock P doesnt take to long to break down, if its in powdered form and the soil is alive then that P will be cycling in no time.
i wouldnt use hard rock, heres a link to verdent thread were we had similar discusionRock Phosphate
also its not just fungi, bacteria play a role in cycling P as well, PSB and mycorrhiza helping bacteria

 

[mad librettist]

yeah but fungi are the sensitive ones. you need all the pieces.

 

[C21H30O2]

im interested in your method M L

can you discuss it more? I am about to prepare my greenhouse grow. some plants will be grown in the ground others in pots. would you till initially to adjust for clay dense soil ie. add some rice hulls gypsum etc to lighten the soil and some organic matter (compost, ewc, perhaps some 5-5-5). what is the best way to establish a balance in clay like soil that does not drain well? thx.

 

[mad librettist]

well, I hesitate to say anything about clay soil because for me it is all theoretical. Always had silt or sand.

But it's supposed to work either way, just called no-dig gardening by most (I do transplant though). Straw is great stuff. Something to walk on, you can scatter food into it, etc... We certainly aren't talking about a quick fix.

Maybe read "one straw revolution" or google no till or no dig, or even permaculture for some good ideas.

I'm also fascinated by the free book "weeds, guardians of the soil", as I have observed what it describes countless times without knowing what I saw: that certain weeds help our plants when they grow alongside them in the right density.

 

[guest2012y]

Opened up that bag of fish bone meal I got and noticed right away that the stuff smells and looks good. It's also in a fine enough powder which I feel will be able to be broken down fairly quick.
I think I like it....let' see what it can do!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Capt.Cheeze1

Here's a good fertilizer tea mix.

1/4 cup fish bone meal (5-16-0)
1/4 cup kelp meal

Put this in 5 gallons of water and aerate for a day or so. When you're ready to apply add 1/2 cup of the fish hydrolysate and 1.5 tsp. of the Pro-TeKt silicon product.

Apply as a soil drench.

Heh............

CC