organics are slower?

[Microbeman]

hi microbeman, so you think it's impossible to burn or overfeed plants with organic amendments like alfalfa etc? i thought alfalfa could burn plants.

comfrey can definitely burn plants, ive seen that one for myself.

surely there are lots of microbes in the soil that arent under the direct 'control' of the plant's roots? organic amendments can get used up and leached out even in soil that has no plants in it.

VG

Tell me the next time you burn plants by topdressing dry alfalfa meal (in a reasonable amount) or comfrey leaves.

I do not typically use alfalfa in a soil mix (the exception has been experimental in very minimal amounts) I do believe that those who do use it in a soil mix, treat the soil similar to compost, allowing the organic matter to break down.

Although this is an apparent successful practice I have never done this, nor do I advocate it, nor view it as part of what I perceive to be utilizing living soil.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i believe it is very easy to overfeed plants, especially in an organic soil, and even if the plants dont get burnt, it leads to longer finishing times and buds that are very poor to smoke.
some of the worst weed ive smoked was grown organically (not by me ) in a soil with too much food in it. its referred to as 'old hippy weed' amongst my friends - and this old hippy steers well clear of it

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

Tell me the next time you burn plants by topdressing dry alfalfa meal (in a reasonable amount) or comfrey leaves.

if you have to say 'in a reasonable amount' then surely it is possible to use too much?

VG

 

[self]

Have you noticed where you think Organics is slower...like, are the plants a little leggy off the flip, or slow to finish and swell at the end? Something like that? I think it may be likely that growing organically in fully amended soil, as you are doing, might take a little longer to dig into the flowering nutes in the bottom of your containers. Its only natural, since you aren't force feeding it whatever you want, when you want, as most nutrient schedules do.
On the other hand, maybe this is an issue of veg time or pot size? So your plants have ample time to take advantage of your soil? Or maybe your pots are too big, and a more constricting pot could help force your transition into flower.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

If one uses fish emulsion (as mentioned) rather than fish hydrolysate, one can easily stifle microbial division and growth. I managed to do this in a double blind experiment conducted for a fertilizer company.

If one uses kelpmeal in ACT be prepared for the full microbial population to be somewhat delayed (IME), especially if using high grade or soluble kelp rather than regular feed grade.

Small amounts of alfalfa meal are good for promoting flagellates and fungi, as is sphagnum peatmoss.

We have been satisfied with getting full microbial populations in our activities for some time using only vermicompost and black strap molasses.

You can find more information on ACT here;

http://www.microbeorganics.com/#More_on_Compost_Tea_2013_

I didn't think anyone actually used fish emulsion anymore. I had thought that everyone was using hydrolysate.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

organics are slower?

The thread title makes it sound like organics is the retarded younger brother of hydroponics.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

This had slipped my mind.

I have recently been storing premixed bags of ingredients for compost tea. They are stored in plastic bags.

Starting at about a week in the bags the flagellate numbers are much higher in the finished teas than before storage. After a few weeks they seem to peak, and I have yet to see them decline for longer periods of storage.

Moral of the story is, "mix yo' shit, pack yo' shit in baggies, Sto' Yo' shit, and then brew yo' shit for more flagellates."

Also I have noticed an increase in the diversity of bacteria from the stored compost mixes to the unstored mixes.

I did not do this on purpose, it was purely by accent, but a very easy thing to do to up your flagellate numbers.

It does not seem to make for more amoebas, but awesome none the less.

That is all folks.

 

[danthestonerman]

Self, thank you for your suggestions. I have never considered giving the roots time to get into the soil. I normally transplant and flower. I start out of the cloner into solo cups with roots organic soil and I move them up to a 3 gal pot after they have a good root hold on the cups. Usually a week or two and they have great roots. They veg for another 5-6 weeks sometimes a little longer on slower ones. When they are big enough for me(30" and bushy) I transplant into a 7 gallon smart pot with the ammended soil. They have teas from the time I put them in solo cups in small ammounts every 3-4 waterings. They seem to be the slowest in the end of flower as compared to my past chemical grows. They are getting a second boost just befor they should be done normally and take an extra week or two. Wich isnt bad I just have never experienced this. I was concerned that I could be slowing them down somehow. As it appears a few things could contribute to. I do use 100% organic ammendments nothing is bottled except mollases and the hydroslate. And yes it is hydroslate not emultion. I will play with the suggestions on the compost tea I think there was a few great point for me to learn more on. And I am going to run an experiment on my soil blend with less N. Thanks again for all the responses and ideas to try. As I said I see a few points I could experiment with.

 

[DARC MIND]

VG
i really dont get were your comming from
first thing i learned when grasping organics was less is best & to not push the plant

imho
plants can not overfeed themselves but yes they can be planted in super redic amended soil & burn, just like the over use of water soluble feeds..hence the directions of use on the label of most agri sold products

overfeeding is a newb mistake as im sure most will agree;
with or with out organics your logic applys to poor smoke

now when these canna clebs tweak ther soilless media in a attempt to apply the concepts of hydroponics to soil;with pretty swell results its kinda hard for others to hear what were saying let alone practice.

the word "organics" is pretty much marketing nowa days
super oxygenated rootzone, bennies, carbs and instantly available "organic" nutrients,sounds cool & sales!
& its not like "organics" can never be aggressively over used/applied nor do i think anyone is claiming this

soil fertility is not simply a question of the quantity of plant food that it contains-it is the sum of all features that are necessary for plant growth.

 

[VerdantGreen]

DARC, i certainly agree with "less is best" - i was just defending my stance that its easy to overfeed plants in organic soil - just as it is with chems.

i strongly disagree with Microbeman's claim that you can only overfeed with soluble ferts - which is what he seemed to be saying above in response to my simple statement about overfeeding.

implying you can chuck anything in any amount into/on your soil as long as it's organic and not soluble is wrong imo.

ignoring the potential pitfalls of any method is not going to help anyone.

thats where im coming from.

VG

 

[habeeb]

if you have to say 'in a reasonable amount' then surely it is possible to use too much?

VG

haha


you can without a doubt "burn" / "overfeed" / "F up" plants by "giving" them too much organic "nutes"

take bio canna, dump in 30ml a gallon, and watch the havoc..

 

[Holdin']

Hello I am new to this forum. I have bean growing my own legal michigan meds for about 3 years now, this last 3 grows switching from chemical to organics and really enjoying it. However I have read and noticed that it seems to be taking a little longer to flower. So I thought I would start a discussion on that. Does is take longer? If so why? Anyone dissagree? and why?

I grow in roots organic soil for veg and subcools recipe slighly modified for flower. I veg under 2 advanced led all blue veg 180w leds... 2 240w blue veg leds....and one 300w full spectrum led. I flower under 2 1000w in xxl cooled hoods and I have a hydro gen pro liquid cooled co2 burner monitored at 1500ppm. Temps are kept at 75 and 45% humidity. I dont believe its my grow rooms. I water every 3-4 days with tea every 3-4 waterings. I dont top bend or otherwise cause stress to them. Usualky they are bright green with no burns or deficiencies. And later in flowering they will fade and change colors some as normal. The only thing is it seems to take 25% or more longer to veg and 25% longer to flower with the same strains ive ran for three years now? Strains are skunk. berry bomb. Afghan/yumbolt. Ny purple diesel. So lets talk any ideas or is it just the way organics are no changing it?

I disagree, simply because my flowering times have been consistent with living organic soil or various bottled nutes...

Has the addition of your co2 generator been recent? Because although I've never allowed it to happen to see it for myself, many will say co2 slows ripening during late flower. I cut the co2 or lower ppms to just above ambient with a couple weeks left, and so do many of us that run supplemental co2.

Just a thought!

 

[VerdantGreen]

dan, have you tried measuring your soil temperature? if your plants are standing on a cold concrete floor it may slow down your plants - especially if the supersoil is at the bottom of the pots.
soil temperature is something to take note of in organics. i would say you want it around 70.

VG

 

[Microbeman]

haha


you can without a doubt "burn" / "overfeed" / "F up" plants by "giving" them too much organic "nutes"

take bio canna, dump in 30ml a gallon, and watch the havoc..

Is this what you call organic - living soil?

 

[guerilllataktic]

In my opinion if you are running 1500ppm co2 you temps at 75deg are way to low to get the full benefit of co2 you need to be at 85 deg this will increase the rate of growth do som research about co2 supliment

The post earlier about the "N" contributing to longer flowering periods seems to be very accurate. My afghan is a very dark green very lush plant thru flower and it is one of the longer ones yet breeder says its supposed to be a 8-9 week strain. And with chemical ferts it held true. Althow sometimes close to 11 weeks lately. as u said some of my strains (skunk for example) has a beautiful fade at 7-8 weeks and finishes up at 8-9 weeks like it always has.

I have heard that lower temps can slow growth also. I keep my room at about 75 and 45% humidity. And I use a co2 burner to keep ppm at 1500. Does anyone see anything out of ordinary there? Night temps may differ some but it is thermostat controlled so not more than 2-3 degrees. however the mumidity tends to climb to the 60% range overnight. Within an hr or two of lights on the humidity is bsck to normal.

 

[KidKId]

I think it's fairly standard knowledge that your plants will be smaller, and yield less in soil, then in a Hydro medium.

If you check out subcools youtube channel, you can see his buds are just not the size of those grown in hydroponics. Go compare what HygroHybrid is growing on youtube, to subcool. It's not even remotely close whose plants are larger, faster growing and yielding more. (Hygro gets almost 2 pounds off one plant under a 600 watt light).

That said, Organics will smell and taste better a majority of the time, and simply be easier to grow. If you truely want to get the best quality bud, Organics will get you there.

You can grow top shelf, AAA stuff in coco, DWC etc.., but it is missing that little extra pop Organics give them.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Microbeman, i was responding to this thread as i believed it related to the O.P's soil, (not how it relates to your 'living soil'), because i thought that was more relevant and 'on topic'.

As for the way i grow, no i dont feel the need to change the way i choose to grow cannabis, or go and search out the latest 'must have' amendments so i can be part of any certain gang that thinks they have re-invented the organic wheel.
When i said (in another thread) i had never seen alfalfa meal for sale in the UK, it was really my polite way of saying that i don't feel the need to use alfalfa in my soil because i already have a very successful mix that consistently works brilliantly for me. Growing weed is only a very small part of my horticultural exploits and as such i dont feel the need to use it as a tick-list of every organic practice under the sun. I enjoy treating weed a bit differently to everything else in the way i grow it, and i feel the results i get in yields and smoking quality are plenty of justification for that.

i hope you've had a nice holiday

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

I think it's fairly standard knowledge that your plants will be smaller, and yield less in soil, then in a Hydro medium.

If you check out subcools youtube channel, you can see his buds are just not the size of those grown in hydroponics. Go compare what HygroHybrid is growing on youtube, to subcool. It's not even remotely close whose plants are larger, faster growing and yielding more. (Hygro gets almost 2 pounds off one plant under a 600 watt light).

That said, Organics will smell and taste better a majority of the time, and simply be easier to grow. If you truely want to get the best quality bud, Organics will get you there.

You can grow top shelf, AAA stuff in coco, DWC etc.., but it is missing that little extra pop Organics give them.

whilst i would concede that hydro may be a bit quicker, i'm not sure about it being higher yielding. at present my grows are small but i always get yields of over 1 gram per watt and can get over 1.5 gpw and above from a commercial hybrid. Yields are as much about plant/canopy management as they are about grow medium, and its pretty easy to get an organic soil mix to not be the limiting factor in a grow's yield.

as for what you say about well-grown organics being better quality - i couldnt agree more

VG

 

[bajangreen]

Chems are more fulffy but natural has more weight. Natural takes longer to master as well.

 

[unthing]

i can't see how would organics be any kind of inferior to other methods, only if you know what you're doing, which i can't claim in any style..