L
lysol
In Jorge Cervantes DVD he says keep organic PH above 6 and below 6.5, is this true I shouldnt try to maintain PH of 5.8 ( with swings into the 6s )?
DrunkenMessiah
Member
pH can be tricky business when it comes to organics. I would generally agree with Mr. Cervantes. I run a hybrid hydro system what is fertilized almost exclusively with organics (check the link in my sig) and run a pH of exactly 6.5 This is because my medium is totally overrun with beneficial microbes, the OBBT technique breeds the little buggers faster than any other I know of. A pH of 6.5 is optimum for micro-life.
More traditional mineral-based hydro grows tend to run a pH closer to 5.8 This is because the more acidic solution speeds the rate of osmosis. This is desirable because non-microbially-assisted grows are at the mercy of osmosis to deliver nutrients to the plants.
If you are going organic you need to make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. The only advantage that organic nutes have is that they can be used without harming beneficial micro-life. Other than that they are inferior to salt nutes in every way. (much shorter shelf life, lower nutrient potency, high percentage of water-insoluble nutrients) The closer you are to a pH of 6.5 the happier your microbes will be. Extremely active microbe colonies (such as those found in my OBBTs) are able to affect the soil chemistry so strongly that they will actually set the pH for you. I have found that once the little guys have fully taken over the medium there is actually very little that the gardener can do to change the pH without cocking up the plants.
Keep our microscopic friends in mind when gardening with organics, they are the only reason we get any benefit over the mineral-nute-faithful at all! Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
More traditional mineral-based hydro grows tend to run a pH closer to 5.8 This is because the more acidic solution speeds the rate of osmosis. This is desirable because non-microbially-assisted grows are at the mercy of osmosis to deliver nutrients to the plants.
If you are going organic you need to make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. The only advantage that organic nutes have is that they can be used without harming beneficial micro-life. Other than that they are inferior to salt nutes in every way. (much shorter shelf life, lower nutrient potency, high percentage of water-insoluble nutrients) The closer you are to a pH of 6.5 the happier your microbes will be. Extremely active microbe colonies (such as those found in my OBBTs) are able to affect the soil chemistry so strongly that they will actually set the pH for you. I have found that once the little guys have fully taken over the medium there is actually very little that the gardener can do to change the pH without cocking up the plants.
Keep our microscopic friends in mind when gardening with organics, they are the only reason we get any benefit over the mineral-nute-faithful at all! Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
L
lysol
Thanks Jorge also said you can run at a higher EC and that nute burn is almost impossible. I tested this by hammering my seedling with 800pm water for 4 days and so far growth has sped up, no signs of burns or anything.. so I am assuming yes EC can run higher in an organic garden? ( but may be just a waste of nutes? )
DrunkenMessiah
Member
Ehh, not sure what Mr. Cervantes is on about when it comes to running a higher EC with organics. EC is Electrical Conductivity and is an indication of the salinity of your medium/hydro solution. Basically it tells you what the salt content of your grow is. Real organic nutes contain very little salt/mineral content which means that organic grows should run a much lower EC, not higher.
As I stated, the only advantage of organics is the support of strong microbes. Dousing the grow in salt/mineral nutes totally negates this benefit. Jorge must be teaching some sort of mad organic/mineral technique that I have yet to learn about. I've been growing organic for ages now and the EC of my runoff has yet to crack 0.5 even when I'm running doses of Bloom Burst during flower. Beats the hell out of me man, what you and Jorge are cooking up is beyond the bounds of my experience.
Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
As I stated, the only advantage of organics is the support of strong microbes. Dousing the grow in salt/mineral nutes totally negates this benefit. Jorge must be teaching some sort of mad organic/mineral technique that I have yet to learn about. I've been growing organic for ages now and the EC of my runoff has yet to crack 0.5 even when I'm running doses of Bloom Burst during flower. Beats the hell out of me man, what you and Jorge are cooking up is beyond the bounds of my experience.
Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
L
lysol
Heh his DVD barely goes into any details, he even re-uses clips from the 1st dvd in his 2nd. not that great of a dvd. its ok.
Turns out Fox farm is not true organics so i guess I am essentially running chemical and therefore should use 5.8?
Thanks
Turns out Fox farm is not true organics so i guess I am essentially running chemical and therefore should use 5.8?
Thanks
L
lysol
I am using DWC. Is there any chance of microbes in this environment? I'm thinking just salts right?
DrunkenMessiah
Member
wat?
Uhh, no, not really. Not any that will make a difference anyway.
Allright, I exaggerate, anywhere that there is edible organic material there will be bacteria around to eat it. Running DWC you will have boatloads of oxygen so any bacteria that do show up will be harmless/slightly helpful aerobic bacteria. DWC is great but involves having most of the root mass in oxygenated water. Mycorhizae fungus is incapable of forming a mycelim network in water, no matter how high the total dissolved oxygen. Fungus needs a substrate, something to colonize. Without the fungus to team up with the lonely aerobacteria can do little more than prevent the presence of harmful pathogens. That's really great, but you could do that by just running pure salt nutes or using a little hydrogen peroxide. Without the fungal/bacterial superteam I see no reason to dabble in organics at all.
5.8 is the preferred pH for oxygenated hydro in which a strong tag-team microbial population will not be present. 'Sterile' mineral-fed hydro is a tried and true method, it can net stunning results in an identical manner over and over again. Unless specifically looking to experiment, cannabis hydro gardeners who don't embrace dual-action micro-life should stick to one of the many wonderful mineral-based techniques already in existance. A DWC rig run at a pH of 5.8 is one such technique, it should serve you well!
Enjoy your super-nugs. We organic gardeners will still be around if you care to take a stab at harboring strong micro-life in the future. Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
L
lysol
Thanks sounds interesting maybe I'll give it a go someday, your method sounds good. Just to clarify I previously stated I was slamming a seedling with nutes please everyone disregard this advice, not sure whats wrong with the thing think I burned it.. Anyways peace
DrunkenMessiah
Member
Heh, that's what happens. Seedlings can't ordinarily stand a high degree of free-floating nutrient content. 
The only way to expose new plants to very high levels of nutrients is through active organics. By using beneficial micro-life to capture all of the nutritional content up front it is possible to make extremely high concentrations of nutes available to the plants from day one. This is an advantage exclusive to active organics and is one of my favorite things about it.
Look deep inside yourself Lysol, you know it to be true. Come to The Brown Side and together we will rule the galaxy!
Err, I mean thanks for the interest, we'll see if we can't get you on a real organic regime next time around. Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
The only way to expose new plants to very high levels of nutrients is through active organics. By using beneficial micro-life to capture all of the nutritional content up front it is possible to make extremely high concentrations of nutes available to the plants from day one. This is an advantage exclusive to active organics and is one of my favorite things about it.
Look deep inside yourself Lysol, you know it to be true. Come to The Brown Side and together we will rule the galaxy!
Err, I mean thanks for the interest, we'll see if we can't get you on a real organic regime next time around. Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
L
lysol
Yeah for sure, I appreciate more then most people how ignorant the human race can be, we think we're all sittin pretty with our chemistries & technologies but any smart person will tell you the more we know the more we realize how little we actually do know. These processes had to create US before WE created the technology.
P
purpledomgoddes
there are apparently many types of myco that have evolved and adapted in many different root zone environments, possess different physical structures and capabilities, and are present in the vast majority of the world's plants.
there are both endo and ecto types, w/ various families in those types.
they may be able to survive in water, or in a solution.
interested in research relevant to myco being unable to survive in water, or a solution.
enjoy your garden!
DrunkenMessiah
Member
Many apologies PDG, I suppose that statement was far too blunt. To say that Myco is unable to survive in water is a gross exaggeration. Mycorrhizae fungus has been around for much longer than terrestrial plants and is found in nearly every environment on earth. In the soil, in water and even in the air!
What I meant was that without a solid substrate the benefits of Mycorrhizae fungus are extreemly limited. While they can certinly live in oxygenated water there is very little they can do down there. The biggest boon of running beneficial fungus is that it is able to make a root network throughout the medium much, much faster than the plant can. This allows small plants to have access to all the nutes in the medium. In the case of DWC a plant which has any amount of root mass hanging in the water already has acess to all of the nutes due to osmosis. The benefits of the DWC technique make the benefits of water-going fungi mostly redundant. Yes they increace diversification and yes they can help liberate stubborn organic nutrients, but these things are moot when running mineral nutes.
I'm constantly on the lookout for misinformation just as much as you apparantly are. I'm just tired of gardeners going organic for the wrong reasons. In my experience beneficial fungus is able to deliver the maximum amount of benefits when growing in a medium. That isn't to say that they still can't otherwise be of some help. I should not have said that beneficial fungus cannot live in water, I aught to have said that they cannot form a strong mycelium network in water. Nor would there be any significant benefit if they where able to do so. I was just trying to make clear the scenario in which beneficial microbes are able to maximise their ability to help the gardener. To say that this is the only scenario in which they can live is vastly incorrect. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.
Good luck and happy gardening!
-DM
P
purpledomgoddes
myco seem to be quite effective in maintaining general plant health.
enjoy your garden!
enjoy your garden!
DrunkenMessiah
Member
Meh,
Low-level fungal colonies without strong mycelium nets, as I said, can be considered benefits. However, if you want to talk 'maintaining plant health' you gotta go with aerobic bacteria. Frankly an aggressive colony of these are WAY simpler to start and maintain than strong-rooted Mycorrhizae and will do a superior job of what you describe in underwater situations.
You have to be functionally comatose to be incapable of whipping up a quick batch of
Lacto Bacilli. A successful LB culture will be teeming with badass local aerobic bacteria which given food and a high-oxygen environment will act as a secondary immune system in the root zone of any plant. They are vicious, one of the most aggressive metabolizers found in nature. They are found deep down in the bases of biological awesome ranging as far from active compost piles to the rapid-action digestive tracts that allow mammals like you and me to be so neat-o.
Anything less than whoopass fungal colonies need not apply for the job of maintaining plant health. The benefits of them, in terms of yielding meaninful weight of cannabis flowers in a simple and earth-friendly way (which is what I assumed we where in this part of the forum for), are limited to certain roles in DWC. These roles are tasks that they can complete for the gardener better and more simply than any other option. For maintaining plant health when not in the presence of a strong mycelium network you want aerobic bacteria.
On the other hand, if you want to MASSIVELY improve soil structure, nutrient availability, moisture holding/draining/retention, AND fight off pathogens you need a mycelium network. All of the principals that its immunity-providing benefits are based on require this root net. Strong mycelium networks secrete tons of cool substances that break down complex matirials in the soil and incidentally act as anti-pathenogenic chemicals. It also greatly helps in forming a physical barrier that is set up only to absorb water and certain nutrients and repel everything else; including un-helpful organisms. For this you need a substrate.
Fungi are certainly very flexible organisms and there are all kinds of them that survive in a myriad of natural situations. However this is the International Cannagraphic Organic Hyroponics forum and the precedence of our conversation is met with the end goal of acquiring the ganjas. As interesting an addition of these fringe fungi are to the grow situation, they will make no real impact on the reason we are growing at all!
Lysol didn't go out and aquire a Jorge Cervantes DVD because he was interested in cannabis growth as a horticultural oddity. I would put serious money on him being interested in all of this because he would like to conviniently produce as much THC as possible. In that respect there are certain conditions we need to meet as gardeners to get fungus that will help us out. Certainly the end goal can be met as many different ways as there are gardeners, but that end goal is to have a strong mycelium net bound to the root zone of the plants. Other beneficial fungi are very interesting and certainly exist, but they need not apply for the title:
'Simpler Way of Getting lysol More Better Ganjas'
-DM
J
JackKerouac
The ph drift is what makes nutrients available at different pH's. As long as you keep it between 5.5 and 6.8 as much as it lingers, you should be ok.
Organic adds another vector to the complexity, but that is why you introduce products like Subculture B or M to make the nutrients more available at any pH.
Organic adds another vector to the complexity, but that is why you introduce products like Subculture B or M to make the nutrients more available at any pH.
