Open pollination--How to balance between stabilization and diversity

[pipeline]

Being an outdoor only home breeder (more like fumbler ) I really need to focus on male selection..... The females I always keep, may not always keep the seed from them if their traits are undesirable or not the more desired ones, but the males seem to be the determining factor in my game. I can only hope for the day I'm able to do progeny testing for male trait contributions.....

As of today, the technique involves looking at a male, smelling, tasting, smoking the immature flowers, and making my selections based on the observed traits...... I hope for some stabilization but at the same time I mostly hope for preservation of the best variations in the line..... Discarding these variations accidentally will make it more difficult to find the desired individuals of the population in the future.

What can I do to better stabilize a hybrid, in my situation, without discarding individuals with desired traits or that contribute desired traits to their progeny?

Seems I dont have much to work with I know...... In an attempt to stabilize and preserve a couple non true F1 hybrids in 05, male selections were made leaving what was observed to be the best 2 males from each hybrid for use in open pollination.

Did I do the right thing? Should i have used more males? Obviously I didn't have that many to choose from as the numbers were around 10-20.......

How do we make new seedlines stable without loosing diversity? How diverse can a genetic population be and still be a stable strain? Where would the point of balance be between maximum stability and maximum diversity, and how close to the balancing point should we seek to be as a project goal?

 

[fjällhöga]

A good technique for insuring more diversity in the offspring which is paired with more genes , so more phenotypes will pop , is to increase the # of females used when only 2 " good " males are available .....

 

[pipeline]

Sounds like I was on the right track..... It was suggested that I choose about 2 of the most desirable males back when the pollination was done.... It was probably Bub, can't really remember..... too many days ago....

Glad yer in good spirits! Its FRIEDday!

 

[fjällhöga]

a good begin would be ....

2007 crop ... sepparate the males used in different batches on different females
label everything and write down which of the phenotypes you found liked best

2008
plant all those batches coming from the winners from last year [ be sure that you labeled every batch with the # from the male used ! ]
Now you should be able to track down some things the male added to the phenotypes of the last year ... , write them down and compare them ... , talk&smoke with some friends and let them give you their opinion ...

2007 - 2009 now its time to think about the things you want ... , preservation is on its way ..
what traits you want to see ... , which ones not ??? .... **

**[its possible to back cross to males which showed favor from former gen´s which were dryed/labeled/packed/frozen not nessesary to say , but dont hope to stab. more than 1 trait with this one ]


Fj

 

[pipeline]

Thanks, FJ! I am unable to keep males separate. Open pollination will be done outdoors with minimal visits. We gotta guerilla around these parts..... Trips will also be at night, making observation and selection much more difficult.....

 

[phil_stone]

I agree. You should select only the two best males to breed. Follow your intuition to select. Early? Bushy? Etcetera… But keep the more resinous because the resign production depends a lot on the male’s ability to produce some.
With time and some efforts you’ll have a landrace/IBL!
If I can give another advice, keep only some stems of males in water indoor and use pollen on the young buds with a pencil. With this method you will have only a few good seeds and some descent smoke. With wild pollen, you’ll have only buds full of seeds (often immatures) and only weak buds to make hash.
Good luck…

Peace, Phil

 

[pipeline]

Hey Phil stone, thanks for stopping by!

I plan on doing something similar to what you suggested, only I will simply leave the males outside, allowing them to release pollen until I decide the female flowers are big enough to yield an adequate amount of seed...... I'm not able to have anything indoor at the moment.... I try to keep my methods simple, old school, and self guiding so that if something happens to me, things still go according to plan....

 

[zamalito]

IMO you should do the opposite and use more males and fewer females using wax paper pollen bags to pollinate each branch with a different male and save some pollen from each male to freeze. Males are more difficult to select so if you choose only two males and they turn out to be less desirable you may end up harming your next generation especially since you plan on selecting more females and the most desirable ones will be more diluted. Then since you kept track of which males pollinated which branch when you grow out the next generation you will know which males and which bags of pollen in your freezer produced the best offspring so you can then mix the pollen from those males in the next generation and only use offspring from those males which produced more desirable progeny for breeding the next generation.

 

[pipeline]

In the second generation how many males should be selected? More than 2?

If the the second generation has more variation than the first, shouldn't more males be used?

Numbers will be low so what if a male has great smell, taste, and effect, but has some very undesirable trait. Would it be worth it to use this male for breeding to save the good variation and try to breed out the bad trait later, or simply wait until next year, grow out more of the population looking for that perfect male to mate w/ a desired female to continue the line?

 

[exactlywatt]

Awesome pic pipeline!!! Great thread. Man, the breeder's lab has been some good reading over the past week. Thanks for all the infomative posts yall!

 

[pipeline]

Thanks zamalito! I will try the bagging method in the future but today I'm unable to do that.... Open pollination is what we're using.....

What would be an appropriate number of females to use in the first cross? second cross? Third cross? They often will show varying traits that are all desired....

How do you choose which to keep if numbers must be kept low..... Should a stronger selection pressure be placed on the females than males?

I would like to keep that variation, but at the same time not get too out of hand.....

When should I move on to the 4th generation? Should the seed from a couple years of breeding this way with the second generation be grown all together in batches, or should I push for the 4th if I'm happy with the way things are going?

 

[pipeline]

Hey, thanks for stoppin by exactlywatt! The lab has been busy lately! Glad you're interested!

 

[phil_stone]

Just select the 2 best males and uses only on the two best females plants with seeds...

You'll have an IBL with years...

It's a less complexe way than the Zamalito Bros one's. Even he's right.

Keep the seeds from the better phenos and just give the other seeds to good friends...

Peace Phil

Ps: ricine seeds are poison... Don't play with this!

 

[pipeline]

Thanks for the input, phil! Don't worry, I know about ricin.... Wasn't playing a whole lot but probably more than I needed to....

Going to have to just wait to see how the girls grow out and play it by ear..... I'll keep all these thoughts in mind while making selection decisions.

 

[Johnny Chimpo]

Nice thread Pipeline I'll be following it. I'm doing some open pollination later this year.

JC