ok, it's time to build a soil

[jaykush]

if you can find some and its good quality, some sifted forest duff ( the compost looking stuff under the leaf litter) is always a good addition. usually high in decomposing fungi to get that nutrient cycling ability of your soil up even higher. i sift it through 1/4 inch mesh, and add about a handful to a gallon of soil along with everything else.

 

[mad librettist]

I can go get some today when I collect the rock dust.

 

[CannaExists]

Protocol11, that's a very interesting feeding regimen, how are your plants diggin that?

 

[xmobotx]

you know i like to go out and find stuff like that too.

last time we walked around and collected deer crap, elk crap, fungus and moss.

time before was seaweed from the local river side along w/ a bunch of bird crap from the beach (goose)

so, anyway this last big walk i went on we found a bunch of lichen or fungi growing on the rocks and it was breaking the rocks down. i didnt have shit to pack anything in but i plan to go back and collect some of that stuff - see if it will naturalize on some of the bigger rocks on my place

another (more relevant) plan i have is to find someone who'll give me permission to dig around in their bog

i have always grown w/ peat from the store and i want to find a source local where i can just dig it up. still confounded about a perlite sub i can source local for containers

but i want to do the same thing, set up a good sized container and never cycle or re-mix the soil - all w/ local natural resources

 

[foescan]

what do you think about sand/silt/clay content?

Does sand really do anything though? How about substituting greensand and coarse rock dusts, which should serve the same drainage and root support functions in the mix while enhancing mineral content.

I don't use sand in potting mixes. I prefer perlite in several grades.

 

[C21H30O2]

what do you guys use for hard compacted clay soils. I have tried rice hulls and gypsum, any other suggestions?

 

[jaykush]

what do you guys use for hard compacted clay soils. I have tried rice hulls and gypsum, any other suggestions?

compost and organic matter. lots of it.

 

[Dignan]

What is 2ndtry's soil mix?

 

[mad librettist]

unfortunately it is gone.

maybe google it and view the cached file.

the main thing was the use of pine bark fines instead of peat or coco. Pretty cool stuff.

but I'm going for longevity, and pine bark breaks down.

 

[Dignan]

All good things break down, eh? If you let any good soil (think veg garden soil here that's, for example, 40% native soil and 60% added compost) with tons of OM sit long enough without amending, the OM eventually disappears and you end up with essentially native soil again.

So if you aren't replenishing not only nutrients but OM in general, you will end up with weak soil.

 

[C21H30O2]

compost and organic matter. lots of it.

how does that help drainage?

 

[DARC MIND]

soil organisms are the major contributers to what many consider healthy or normal soil. compost brings good soil biology who physicaly and chemicaly form good soil structure. the OM will feed and possibly attarct more beneficials and with time will turn hard compacted clay soil to very productive living soil. Humification
worms are a great example of a soil organisms who break up soil & are attracted to both OM and compost.

 

[mad librettist]

All good things break down, eh? If you let any good soil (think veg garden soil here that's, for example, 40% native soil and 60% added compost) with tons of OM sit long enough without amending, the OM eventually disappears and you end up with essentially native soil again.

So if you aren't replenishing not only nutrients but OM in general, you will end up with weak soil.

not really... you are assuming I am taking a whole lot away, which isn't the case. Most goes right back. And while it will be no-till (minimal dig), I will be top dressing.

Anyway, I am not talking about biomass or nutrient holding, I am talking about pine bark, peat, or (slower) coco breaking down and collapsing, whereas the goal with mineral soil is for microbes to form aggregates as time passes, meaning the structure improves with time.

 

[jaykush]

how does that help drainage?

the microbes in the compost create whats called clay aggregates. this creates a structure that aids in drainage.

also dig, organic matter may dissapear, but humus will stay there for a very long time unless exposed to the air and it oxidizes. ( i.e tilling )

 

[C21H30O2]

somehow i dont think enough aggregates are going to be made in time. my soil is basically hard pan. Its like cement. Im sure with enough time the soil would change with the application of organic matter but since I would like to grow something this year wouldn't an initial till before going non till be beneficial for the short term while i build the soil long term?

 

[mad librettist]

nope.

pull some plugs if you want to speed things up.

tilling will not help in the long run.

(EDIT: I mean in the long run, obviously in the short run it works)

 

[DARC MIND]

somehow i dont think enough aggregates are going to be made in time. my soil is basically hard pan. Its like cement. Im sure with enough time the soil would change with the application of organic matter but since I would like to grow something this year wouldn't an initial till before going non till be beneficial for the short term while i build the soil long term?

i think it would but when you dig be sure to add plenty of compost, casting and or OM when filling the hole back up. kind of like a hugelkultur bed. planting other crops like beans, pea's, alfalfa, radish or weeds will also help break the hard pan. the soil organisms around ther roots will then get to work on the surrounding soil texture/structure. i also believe weekly applications of ACT could decrease the time to break the soil down. i also hear good things about EM or AEM when it comes to breaking up hard soil
id be diverse with your approach to breaking up the soil, till or no till...

 

[jaykush]

somehow i dont think enough aggregates are going to be made in time. my soil is basically hard pan. Its like cement. Im sure with enough time the soil would change with the application of organic matter but since I would like to grow something this year wouldn't an initial till before going non till be beneficial for the short term while i build the soil long term?

oh yea, i am all for an initial till in bad soil. even if its a few years of tilling and incorporating organic matter. i have done that here when i got here, the soil was basically clay hardpan like yours, and filled to the brim with rocks. now its nice and fluffy and holds moisture well into the dry season. i was not suggesting you top dress compost and let nature do its thing. far from it. you need to get that compost in the soil, and lots of it. then once the soil has a good consistency you can move towards a no till regimen.

 

[mad librettist]

well there you have it. perhaps my overconfidence is from lack of clay experience. Sounds like nastier stuff than the books let on.

anyone tried the plug pulling? Clover and other weeds?

 

[C21H30O2]

im sure just adding organic matter would work over time but I want to grow this season lol. I will take your advice, till and work in an ass-load of organic matter. ACT once a week and I will look into those other methods, I am not familiar with them yet. for those that do till initially, do you add any rice hulls, sand, gypsum or whatever to help with drainage?