not sure I would have used the word "ideological", but good points VG
Nutrient Industry-Bottled Organics What you guys think
- Thread starter cannadiancream
- Start date
Please excuse my stupidity and ignorance, I am a coco/hydro grower who is interested in what you knowlegable organic/soil growers are up to.
I thought that organic nutes could not be taken up directly anyway, the microherd needed to eat and shit them into a form that the plant roots could take up ?
Would it not be best to concentrate on getting a top quality mature mixed soil that has enough digested nutrients in it to complete the veg and bloom cycle ?
HB's rant was a good read and along these lines.
I thought that organic nutes could not be taken up directly anyway, the microherd needed to eat and shit them into a form that the plant roots could take up ?
Would it not be best to concentrate on getting a top quality mature mixed soil that has enough digested nutrients in it to complete the veg and bloom cycle ?
HB's rant was a good read and along these lines.
You can buy good soil or you can build better soil.
Store bought soil is generally designed to carry one through x amount of weeks in veg and x amount of weeks in flower. This will vary with strain and style, in which case bottled nutes may be desirable. Most often there will be a specific deficiency such as nitrogen or magnesium, in which case you just add specifically what you need instead of somebody's idea of what you need.
It's like the doctor giving you a handful of pills when all you need is an aspirin.
Store bought soil is generally designed to carry one through x amount of weeks in veg and x amount of weeks in flower. This will vary with strain and style, in which case bottled nutes may be desirable. Most often there will be a specific deficiency such as nitrogen or magnesium, in which case you just add specifically what you need instead of somebody's idea of what you need.
It's like the doctor giving you a handful of pills when all you need is an aspirin.
StrapAssassin42
Member
some bottles have their place but what gets me is bottled guanos and the like....what did you do??.... put a couple tbs of guano into a bottle and add water...5x the price and their you go.....thanks guys!! what a joke!
haha good points everyone. VG called it. i've got no experience w/ bottled nutes. i just know you don't need to be paying some asshole all your hard earned cash to grow organic.
i'm sure some of the organic lines are great, because we've got growers like habeeb and Vstagger lee growing really beautiful, healthy plants that i would LOVE to smoke.
i just try to present the other side of things. since building a good soil doesn't have a ginormous advertising and marketing campaign, i don't think as many people have considered it as an option.
i'm sure some of the organic lines are great, because we've got growers like habeeb and Vstagger lee growing really beautiful, healthy plants that i would LOVE to smoke.
i just try to present the other side of things. since building a good soil doesn't have a ginormous advertising and marketing campaign, i don't think as many people have considered it as an option.
D
DGSIX
Check out my side by side experiment!
Bottled Organics vs Chem
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=227813
My buddy at the local store broke it down for me like this the other day. TLO is truly organic. Roots Organics we're not sure about because their lack of omri rating, but they are really good ppl at the company and have been focused on organic growing for a loooooong time.
Ultimately I think that the bottled organics are intended for hydro users and would be great in an ebb and flow system or something.
The reason that the GO line is merely organicly based, is because they couldn't figure out how to make some of the minerals and such in the nute systems soluable to the plant. Whether it was because they wanted to make "organic" for dummies so they still chelate things so you don't have to worry about your microherd, i'm not sure, and they wont talk about it. So i agree with the TLO heads and those who looks towards the OMRI listing.
That's my 2 cents. But rather than just yack at ya about how one thing is way better than the other thing and all that, I'm actually testing the two next to eachother with the same strains so I will have a base for comparison.
DG6
Bottled Organics vs Chem
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=227813
My buddy at the local store broke it down for me like this the other day. TLO is truly organic. Roots Organics we're not sure about because their lack of omri rating, but they are really good ppl at the company and have been focused on organic growing for a loooooong time.
Ultimately I think that the bottled organics are intended for hydro users and would be great in an ebb and flow system or something.
The reason that the GO line is merely organicly based, is because they couldn't figure out how to make some of the minerals and such in the nute systems soluable to the plant. Whether it was because they wanted to make "organic" for dummies so they still chelate things so you don't have to worry about your microherd, i'm not sure, and they wont talk about it. So i agree with the TLO heads and those who looks towards the OMRI listing.
That's my 2 cents. But rather than just yack at ya about how one thing is way better than the other thing and all that, I'm actually testing the two next to eachother with the same strains so I will have a base for comparison.
DG6
StrapAssassin42
Member
ok....i've spent some time on the phone with both Roots Organic and Botanicare wondering about why they dont have OMRI ratings.
Roots claims that they have higher standards than OMRI so having a rating from them isn't necessary.
After being transferred several times while on the phone with Botanicare i findly found someone knowledgable enough to get a decent answer. I asked if PBP was organic. The Pure Blend Pro bottle states that it is derived from natural and organic substances.
The short answer to my question was "no" it is not organic!
The rep went on to state that because of the minerals in there formula they cannot claim organic because minerals do not have a carbon atom.
I pressed him even further, (I had know idea until my recent research that there are shades of grey when it comes to organics), I asked if there is anything synthentic in the formula, to which he responded, "No, there are no synthetics, there is nothing made in a lab that is in PBP".
According OMRI in order to be considered organic all ingredients must have a carbon atom.
In my opinion OMRI is not the be all, end all of organics...There are fertilizer companies that hold there products to a higher standard. (Like Roots Organics)
In my opinion that makes PBP organic....or at least i can call my headstash organic.
I am interested in the opinion of others and am open to debate!
Roots claims that they have higher standards than OMRI so having a rating from them isn't necessary.
After being transferred several times while on the phone with Botanicare i findly found someone knowledgable enough to get a decent answer. I asked if PBP was organic. The Pure Blend Pro bottle states that it is derived from natural and organic substances.
The short answer to my question was "no" it is not organic!
The rep went on to state that because of the minerals in there formula they cannot claim organic because minerals do not have a carbon atom.
I pressed him even further, (I had know idea until my recent research that there are shades of grey when it comes to organics), I asked if there is anything synthentic in the formula, to which he responded, "No, there are no synthetics, there is nothing made in a lab that is in PBP".
According OMRI in order to be considered organic all ingredients must have a carbon atom.
In my opinion OMRI is not the be all, end all of organics...There are fertilizer companies that hold there products to a higher standard. (Like Roots Organics)
In my opinion that makes PBP organic....or at least i can call my headstash organic.
I am interested in the opinion of others and am open to debate!
Thought i'd chime in here
I use OMRI certified soil that's innoculated with beneficial fungi/bacteria. I purchase this soil due to the convenience and size of my grow, I do not want to be making soils for hours on my days off THough I do agree homemade soil is probably the way to go. My thing is I enjoy using bottled "Organic" nutes because of the ease, I know how much i'm feeding them when i'm feeding them and I can read the PPM every feeding and increase if need be for maximum growth.Anyone that has looked @ my photo albums or threads cannot dispute the results with the bottled "organic" nutes I use. They work wonders and the end result is amazingly clean and burns even to a white ash. I recently started using "GO"'s vegan line, because with everywatering it feeds my mycro herd as well. My plants with this line grow very rapidly and hardy, all plants have hollow stems you could blow a dart through. I have yet to harvest a plant grown by this line but everything growing currently is thrilled to be alive.
The thing I dont like about just add water soil and mixing my own soils is that the plants just grow too damn slow for my liking. Even with the bokashi, and seaweed extracts and liquid compost and things of that nature. I just dont have any idea how much love my plant is getting with that method. I did use the root's organics line for 2 years, and I have to say the product was always excellent, but the yields sucked giant donkey balls!!!!
Since I switched from there shit ass line to what I mix and match now, my yields have doubled. Sorry for the long rant! I'm a bit baked off of my "organic" durban poison Much love all, SLHey rusty420! I'm right here bro!!
no slow growth around here, even though I use LED in the veg room. growth is especially brisk the second time using a soil and beyond.
what I could dispute is not your results. you produced good ganja with the nutes.
but then again you admittedly fail at other aspects, strictly speaking:
1)spending more than is necessary, even if it does seem small considering the street price of weed
2)you wind up discarding soil
3)you wind up discarding plant matter
4)overestimating the work required to mix and maintain no-till containers
but all in all, if you think about it, how many of us don't fail at some other goals one might have for an "organic" grow:
1)we use fossil-fuel to produce light instead of harvesting the sun's rays directly
2)most of us waste mycorrhizae in our grows, since they don't like overly fertile soil
3)most of us don't follow IPM guidelines, much less -
4)we don't use biological controls instead of lethal sprays (even neem is poisonous to someone!)
another thing not mentioned often enough is that some of these bottled products might be great for saving the novice who screwed up and doesn't have enough in the soil, but has already spent resources vegging. Also might be handy to have a little booster shot while "breaking in" a no-till soil.
remember, it's not about "cooking", it's about how long roots have been influencing the soil.
what I could dispute is not your results. you produced good ganja with the nutes.
but then again you admittedly fail at other aspects, strictly speaking:
1)spending more than is necessary, even if it does seem small considering the street price of weed
2)you wind up discarding soil
3)you wind up discarding plant matter
4)overestimating the work required to mix and maintain no-till containers
but all in all, if you think about it, how many of us don't fail at some other goals one might have for an "organic" grow:
1)we use fossil-fuel to produce light instead of harvesting the sun's rays directly
2)most of us waste mycorrhizae in our grows, since they don't like overly fertile soil
3)most of us don't follow IPM guidelines, much less -
4)we don't use biological controls instead of lethal sprays (even neem is poisonous to someone!)
another thing not mentioned often enough is that some of these bottled products might be great for saving the novice who screwed up and doesn't have enough in the soil, but has already spent resources vegging. Also might be handy to have a little booster shot while "breaking in" a no-till soil.
remember, it's not about "cooking", it's about how long roots have been influencing the soil.
well fuck them, because having a carbon atom has nothing to do with organic gardening. it's not even correct in chemistry. plenty of nonorganic compounds, like CO2, have a carbon atom.
"organic" in chemistry is a quasi-arbitrary term that refers to an association with life processes. back in the day, there was a theory that certain compounds are "vital", or "inherently alive". This was disproven later on, but vitalism still affects the way we think of chemistry. the term organic refers to those "vital" compounds, which it turns out, are no more alive or dead than any other given compound. Also the version in a living being is identical to the raw chemical outside a living being in every way.
I
Iron_Lion
Now the real question is, why should I believe them?
The reason why I like to see an OMRI on bottle nutes is because it proves that have adhered to a set standard. Some may fall above the standard, some may just barely make it but at least they have proven that much.
When I see a liquid organic based what ever in a bottle without an OMRI I am skeptical. For one; because it is a real selling point, and 2 without there is no proof to back up their word.
I look at General Hydroponics and their multi colored liquid death, and I have a hard time believing their GO is truly organic, when they cant show me even the most basic proof.
If the're going to go as far as print "organic" on the bottle it should well be... organic.
I resuse my soil in my outdoor growbeads, and I compost my leaf material
+ how much time would it take for me to make enough soil for 25 plants in 7gal pots? I run a perpetual cycle,I am always transplanting, the thing is I dont want to spend the time on making soil when the soil I buy is clearly worth the $$$. I understand how your no till organic is epic in everyway shape and form. All i'm trying to say is watering in nutes every water seems to make the plants grow at a very fast pace.
My point being is I cannot count on just watering my plants and hoping like a mother fucker to get good yields. I provide for 4 medical patients and my yields depends on them getting meds for the month. This is the reason i like to know what is going into my plants at all times. I'm sure you will have all sorts of responses on why to till organic is the best thing that ever happened to the world, but I used it for years and when I switched to this i'm getting close to 2lbs / light. SL
well I would shuffle container size a bit, but I would give it a weekend, then after that you just top dress for ever.
your yields should be about the same regardless of what system you use, because your limitation is not the soil. if your no-till is underperforming it's your fault like in any other method. It's just a different set of challenges. I'd also like to distance myself from the idea that mixing your own is necessarily better. If a company put together a durable soil suitable for my purposes it would be worth the $$$ to buy it.
I'm glad you compost your scraps, and dispose of your mixes in the yard, but how can you stand perlite in your garden?
you used no-till methods to maintain living soil made of durable materials in containers for years? then you my friend are the pioneer and light years ahead of the rest of us. No-till has only been discussed on IC for a couple years really.
or did you re-use a peat mix? not the same!
from the plant's perspective, not much difference here, and the reason my plants veg as fast as any. I have a very active mulch/living mulch layer, and every time I water a bunch of nutes are washed down into the soil, along with tiny particles that result in nute releases deep in the soil.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=153542
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F
Fastcast
I've used water only type soil mixes,and PBP line with lightly amended soil.The water only is harsh on sativa dom strains.You have to top dress sometimes,witch is ok.Some of these strains have to have different mixes to make them work.As most people know you can't remove the nutes you already mixed in.I did like the fade I had in my last run,but the one I'm on now had a Potassium def(different type of soil)I will try my own Organic tea someday.I like the results of the PBP.but also like the idea of making my own organic recipe.I just now started using molasses.Safe groing
Safe groing
just had to also mention -
the following are not synonyms:
no-till, water-only, dry ferts only
no-till just means you don't disturb the soil if you can help it. I am frequently feeding the worms that live in my pot, for instance. They get garden-tone, coarse azomite, and a bit of bran
the following are not synonyms:
no-till, water-only, dry ferts only
no-till just means you don't disturb the soil if you can help it. I am frequently feeding the worms that live in my pot, for instance. They get garden-tone, coarse azomite, and a bit of bran
I didnt mean to say no till actually, what I meant was just add water grow methods. My bad! As for the perlite, it's never bothered me, and have always had amazing veggies! I always enjoy a constructive conversation with you mad 
Much love, SL
My bad! As for the perlite, it's never bothered me, and have always had amazing veggies! I always enjoy a constructive conversation with you mad Much love, SL
lol i know the perlite doesn't hurt anything, but sometimes it looks like you walked in on some ants moving in with little moving boxes packed with their stuff, complete with little packing peanuts they are spilling everywhere.
