number of tops vs total yield

[Del_9_THC]

So, you guys are saying pruning or training has ZERO effect on yield, given the same conditions?

I think what they are saying is that there are many factors to consider and that there no single unique answer to the question, given all the variables involved.

Depending on your setup, space, lighting, ventilation, strain(s), expertise, legal restrictions, etc, your results might vary.

Some strains might do much better in single cola formation (in which case, you might want to consider sog, rather than scrog. However, legal plant number limits might force your decision to be scrog.)

I would experiment with the strain in your setup to see what works for you.

 

[Dropped Cat]

All things being equal, if you top or train the same clone and give them the same conditions, some WILL benefit and give a better flower to larf etc. ratio.

Maybe you will get the same weight (maybe not) but i am pretty confident that with certain clones you will get a better PERCENTAGE of your yield being choice tops (and vice versa).

Some may agree that topping will allow a greater yield than a single cola.

No need to argue the point, no one cares.

Here is a micro grow yield i had:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8305818&postcount=605

The topped plant yield was marginally greater than the untopped.

As a final note, the topped plants of this cultivar flower
more smaller buds than a single cola of the same cut,
just slightly more of them.

i prefer the smoke from the topped plants.

 

[Frylock]

Some may agree that topping will allow a greater yield than a single cola.

No need to argue the point, no one cares.

Here is a micro grow yield i had:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8305818&postcount=605

The topped plant yield was marginally greater than the untopped.

As a final note, the topped plants of this cultivar flower
more smaller buds than a single cola of the same cut,
just slightly more of them.

i prefer the smoke from the topped plants.

I didn't mean to 'argue' per se, but the thread is 'number of tops vs total yield' so i think having the discussion here is warranted.
Normally i wouldn't bother but i'm confident if you did the test you would get different results, even if only marginal.

 

[dank.frank]

ROFLMAO. I love it when instanoobs find their way to IC and try to tell those of us who've been at this game for ages what we don't know.

Nothing better than someone coming onto a forum and telling other people to run experiments for them that they have not, can not, or are unwilling to run themselves.

Even funnier when what they think is some revolutionary "experiment" is really just basic growing techniques utilized by anyone who has ever grown any type of plant pretty much ever in the history of modern society.

I'm confident, that no matter what is said to you, you'll remain completely deaf to anything except the echos inside your head.



dank.Frank

 

[Frylock]

ROFLMAO. I love it when instanoobs find their way to IC and try to tell those of us who've been at this game for ages what we don't know.

Nothing better than someone coming onto a forum and telling other people to run experiments for them that they have not, can not, or are unwilling to run themselves.

Even funnier when what they think is some revolutionary "experiment" is really just basic growing techniques utilized by anyone who has ever grown any type of plant pretty much ever in the history of modern society.

I'm confident, that no matter what is said to you, you'll remain completely deaf to anything except the echos inside your head.



dank.Frank

I've been a member for 10 years.... i have seen a lot of your content....

I wasn't trying to supersede your imagined 'mastery' d.f, i was just sticking with my original comment regardless of your position.

You are the only 'know it all' in here.... i'm quite happy to be wrong.

 

[dank.frank]

So, how in the world in your 10 years here, have you some how managed to completely miss one of the most basic aspect of growing???

If you had ever grown a plant, you'd not be sitting there scratching your chin like you are or making the statements you have.

There is a HUGE fault in your logic, that makes your premise incorrect. Let's see if you can identify what that is, by reviewing your comments in this thread. I can!

It's relatively simply, but it fundamentally changes what the correct answer is. I answered you correctly. As did everyone else.

Welcome back. Maybe you'll pick up a thing or two this time around!



dank.Frank

 

[Frylock]

IDK what you're talking about d.f, you seem to imply topping or training has no effect on the yield but then say that training techniques have been around with vegetables etc. forever.... yes, they have.... and it is usually to do with the type of preferred total yield, not overall plant mass.

If you grow 2 identical apple trees next to each other and leave one to itself and thin the other the un-thinned will out yield it's thinned neighbor in apple weight but those apples are junk, so your yield is basically nothing.

Do you include everything in your final yield or just the quality parts?
If i train a plant and have it next to it's untrained clone i may get a very similar yield but end up with very different percentage of high quality flowers.

I'm not challenging your theoretical point about providing a plant perfect conditions to achieve it's maximum genetic potential, i'm saying some plants react differently to training/topping, and you won't know which is which unless you try the specific plant trained/topped vs untrained/untopped.

When i re-read the op's question, i can see that he kind of asks both questions though, rolled into one question.

 

[dank.frank]

If you would, please quote where I stated "topping or training has no effect on yield". I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion I was implying anything - other than exactly what I said. It's not like my responses have been cryptic.

Since you ignored my prior challenge to you - to find the error in your line of questioning - I doubt you'll take me up on the new one I just presented.

More or less tops, as a stand alone comparative, does not equate to any sort of determination of final yield.

To which you replied with a rebuttal that already drew conclusions based on your conjecture, not based on what was actually said.

If you have 2 identical clones grown in the exact same conditions and prune them differently and end up with different yields, how can that not be a useful test?

I don't see where I addressed the usefulness/uselessness of anything being performed as a "test".

Yields are the result of many combined factors coming together in harmony. Not just creating more tops.

So I basically repeated my original statement. To which you replied:

No sh*t....

All things being equal, if you top or train the same clone and give them the same conditions, some WILL benefit and give a better flower to larf etc. ratio.

Take a careful look at what you typed. I highlighted it in red. These are qualifying statements that set parameter limitations or restraints.

If I take two identical clones - the best two out of 10 that are going at the same rate with the same health and root vigor - and place them in a 1 gallon container of soil. I veg them out for 4 weeks. Now, it's time to transplant and flip them for flower.

If I top one...and leave the other un-topped - what do you think will happen? Well, you just fucked one plant up and the other will grow fine.

When you top a plant, it's a training technique. It's done to encourage the plant to produce more tops, right, duh, naturally. If you don't take the plant you topped, give it more veg time to allow it to grow more roots to support the shift of energy from meristem to secondary growth, you've not topped or trained the plant correctly at all. You've just hindered it's production.

During flower, that forked top, rather than being two well developed branches that can support 20" colas, all you are going to get is the length of two stems the plant is able to create during the stretch in early flower. Genetics depending, that could be two stubby little 4" nugs where there should have been two full colas, had the plant been vegged out properly after topping or training.

SO -NO- If two plants are grown in the exact same conditions, with all things being equal, cropping the meristem to encourage secondary growth WILL NOT by default, encourage or help a plant produce a higher yield. If you top a plant, you have to take into consideration that you have done so and you alter your entire scenario to accommodate that technique.

Unlike you, I didn't infer or come up with any sort of assumed meaning to what you wrote. I took it word for word and answered accordingly.

But you're right. Me and my imaginary mastery. (which, I don't know where I ever made that claim either)

I've obviously never topped a plant before. WTF would I know.



dank.Frank

 

[MedResearcher]

Unlimited light, and fully healthy plant assumed....

Square feet of canopy will be the major deciding factor in yield. Specific cultivars will yield more or less per square feet, and specific cultivars will reach their potential max yield with more or less tops per square feet.

As in, some cultivars no matter how they are trained and topped will not be a great yielder per square foot while others will.

Although more precisely aimed at the OP's question, specific cultivars will yield better per square foot with more or less tops. Need to test it, and take notes, or talk to someone who has already ran the same cultivar and figured out optimum tops per square foot.


Just focusing on tops per square foot, neglecting advanced techniques like defoliation, the size of the fan leaves will play a big role in either allowing or not allowing more tops per square foot. As well some cultivars can produce dense flowers in lower light, allowing for longer branch's of quality flower, allowing less longer tops to yield well. While the opposite, a cultivar gets very larfy very quickly, requiring tons of shorter branch's.

Tom Hill put it well, can't remember his exact quote but was along the lines of, "We want a sativa structure, with sativa leaves, and indica flowers." Other words, a lanky, stretchy plant, with thin leaves that allows the light to penetrate deep into the canopy, while also providing dense tight flowers. Blue Dream comes to mind as a good example, it also yielded very well.


Long story short, need to experiment with a specific cultivar, to figure out its optimum tops per square feet. GSC, or SFV OG, they pack the SoG really tight to get it to yield well, while something chunky and long like super skunk or bubblegum, not very many tops are needed.


Last little ponder, some fancy wine grape cultivars, the flower clusters are limited and removed per vine to ensure quality. As in, they will only allow 10 clusters on 1 vine, so if a vine has 20 clusters, 10 will be removed before fruiting. I have always wondered and assumed that cannabis is similar. If you had a plant that was prepared to yield 5 pounds, but you removed enough flower sites that it only yields 2 pounds, will those 2 pounds be higher quality.. !?

Mr^^

 

[Frylock]

Yes, yes i do understand.... i know you will have to allow a plant a small amount of time to recover from a topping, especially if you are growing smallish plants, bigger plants or just trained, not so much.

I took your line of,
More or less tops, as a stand alone comparative, does not equate to any sort of determination of final yield.
being theoretical....
Like, no- you can't use it as a rule of thumb (agreeing with you) but if you really want to know if a specific clone will benefit from some topping regardless of the small recovery time, testing will give you some clarity.
Some plants are extremely responsive and the slight recovery time will be outweighed by the consistency of the multiple tops (especially with larger plants).
The more topping, the more recovery time obviously and probably to the detriment of overall yield.

I apologize for my negative tone.... i just felt that your initial response was debatable, and that the question(s) being asked was open to interpretation.

(The 'mastery' quip was a direct response to your 'instanoob' rant )

 

[dank.frank]

No hard feelings at all. It's why I tried to carry it further and explain things a bit clearer.

I certainly agree, some plants will perform better than others in regards to various training techniques. This is usually, one of those dividing lines between indica and sativa, NLD and WLD...whatever term you choose.

Generally, sativa and sativa dominant hybrids respond better to topping and indicas tend to do better as single cola. However, that is the purpose of training, to get a plant to do what you want it to.

Good vibes, Fry.



dank.Frank

 

[theJointedOne]

gee pretty obvious who the new guy really is..

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I want my 3 minutes back. (yes, I'm a speed reader)

 

[Pwyll]

Topping is one thing but mainlining is High Stress Training. For really healthy plants and dialled in grow rooms

 

[Mate Dave]

I have a mate that swears by topping to get his top count on his plants. He's been growing for longer then me but not grown as many crops. He had a room one time that used to put out like 140 every cycle from 10 -15 plants. They was on a 12 week veg cycle where he shaped them & let them go & he fed them for the full cycle. Each bud was the same as the next because of the topping done they all weighed in about 7-10 grams with some of the popcorn..

Recently he has been doing the same in a smaller room with no supplemental feed & the plants won't finish & they don't have the weight in them. Much like Frank says.

There is only so much Auxins & ATP that can divide between all the stem mass in the vascular system & the lowers get the ferts before the tops & they get the sun before the lowers so it's all about a balance with adequate fertigation.

With organic cultivation you will struggle to get that type of growth without keeping the Auxins in the central cola.

Other methods chop out all the growth @ 4" & direct all the energy into 3 leaders pencil thickness with 3 nodes each with outfacing buds. These 3 leaders will compete for all resources & produce amazing plants from no framework & no care & it overcomes the problem with the 12 week veg cycle that is optimal for plants in 15ltr pots.


More tops = more humidity & more problems with that come when they connect & link up & fall into one another. When they droop over indoors they are out that optimal zone & then they suffer.. Growth support like a screen or ties help to keep tops in the Max Lumens or in the photon flux zone

 

[Noonin NorCal]

I like turtles!!!

 

[Noonin NorCal]

If you would, please quote where I stated "topping or training has no effect on yield". I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion I was implying anything - other than exactly what I said. It's not like my responses have been cryptic.

Since you ignored my prior challenge to you - to find the error in your line of questioning - I doubt you'll take me up on the new one I just presented.



To which you replied with a rebuttal that already drew conclusions based on your conjecture, not based on what was actually said.


I don't see where I addressed the usefulness/uselessness of anything being performed as a "test".



So I basically repeated my original statement. To which you replied:






Take a careful look at what you typed. I highlighted it in red. These are qualifying statements that set parameter limitations or restraints.

If I take two identical clones - the best two out of 10 that are going at the same rate with the same health and root vigor - and place them in a 1 gallon container of soil. I veg them out for 4 weeks. Now, it's time to transplant and flip them for flower.

If I top one...and leave the other un-topped - what do you think will happen? Well, you just fucked one plant up and the other will grow fine.

When you top a plant, it's a training technique. It's done to encourage the plant to produce more tops, right, duh, naturally. If you don't take the plant you topped, give it more veg time to allow it to grow more roots to support the shift of energy from meristem to secondary growth, you've not topped or trained the plant correctly at all. You've just hindered it's production.

During flower, that forked top, rather than being two well developed branches that can support 20" colas, all you are going to get is the length of two stems the plant is able to create during the stretch in early flower. Genetics depending, that could be two stubby little 4" nugs where there should have been two full colas, had the plant been vegged out properly after topping or training.

SO -NO- If two plants are grown in the exact same conditions, with all things being equal, cropping the meristem to encourage secondary growth WILL NOT by default, encourage or help a plant produce a higher yield. If you top a plant, you have to take into consideration that you have done so and you alter your entire scenario to accommodate that technique.

Unlike you, I didn't infer or come up with any sort of assumed meaning to what you wrote. I took it word for word and answered accordingly.

But you're right. Me and my imaginary mastery. (which, I don't know where I ever made that claim either)

View Image

View Image

View Image


I've obviously never topped a plant before. WTF would I know.



dank.Frank

Nice looking plants...
That first picture looks like my plants in 1 gallon containers.
i just pinched/topped the very top, had about 4-6 nodes.
Now its a waiting game for me, since i started from seeds

 

[doams]

wow guys some many answers


think my first post was a bit general maybe too much general

lets say we have 4 clones from one sativa that produce big ass colas like durban poison..
we repot 4 clones into same size containers same nutes lights everything..


clone 1 will not be topped
clone 2 will be topped once
c3 will be topped two times
c4 will be topped 3 times



would love to see final dry yields between those 4 clones maybe some day gonna run this experiment..


dont want anyone to do this experiment for me or anything..


in my experience with durban the biggest yield was from a plant that had shitloads of small colas but it was flowering for 16 weeks so not a good examle at all

anyway thx for all the answers you guys are the best as always!


putting this experiment to my to do list for the future

 

[FunkBomb]

If you have limited square feet for each plant try cutting off the fan leaves around week 3 in veg. Give a day for recovery and the side branches quickly strengthen and stretch up to match the main growth shoot. You can top the plant if you'd like but once you flip the lights into flowering they all stretch together and you have a mostly even canopy. Clean up the lower sucker branches and blocked fan leaves as they appear to help drive growth at the canopy level. Once strech is over its just basic trimming/defoliation and ramp up your bloom boosters. I've found this method works very well in coco. Regular feedings with kelp or kelp extracts does wonders too. Hope this helps

-Funk