New Passports issued contain Information Chips
- Thread starter Ms.Grat3ful
- Start date
N
newbieb
anymore information about the information theyll have about you on the passport (all the information theyll have about you)?
G
Guest
You'd either need access to a scanner, or an honest government official willing to answer direct questions of that sort; I'm not sure which one is more rare these days.
But I don't think that it would hurt to ask, particularly considering some of the very real security risks that could exist.
moose eater
But I don't think that it would hurt to ask, particularly considering some of the very real security risks that could exist.
moose eater
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If they use polymer based semiconductor films you arent going to have any ic chips to feel around for to smash, its flatter than paper and flexible.
There also isnt any reason to keep more information on it than whats already on the passport itself. The goal is to make the passports harder to fake, not to open another whole can of worms in the realm of privacy. It also wouldnt take more than peeking over the shoulder of someone scanning passports to see whats on them. With the number of scanners and increasing amount of passports it wont be long before one of the scanner personel gets on the internet to talk about it.
The other reason to not have more info on it than whats in the passport is because you want the screeners screening passengers, not screening extraneous information on peoples passports.
There also isnt any reason to keep more information on it than whats already on the passport itself. The goal is to make the passports harder to fake, not to open another whole can of worms in the realm of privacy. It also wouldnt take more than peeking over the shoulder of someone scanning passports to see whats on them. With the number of scanners and increasing amount of passports it wont be long before one of the scanner personel gets on the internet to talk about it.
The other reason to not have more info on it than whats in the passport is because you want the screeners screening passengers, not screening extraneous information on peoples passports.
crunkinshoe
Member
Heh, I had no idea about this and I'm going to be getting a new passport soon to go on tour to Japan, Thailand, and Austrailia with the band I play for....
G
Guest
The thing is, there are already RFID readers EVERYWHERE. Once they slip them into your ID they can track your every move. Coming soon to a driver's license near you....2008 I think. Anyway, not only are they going to be able to track where you go, but what you do, what you buy, who you see, how long you stand in one spot looking at certain products, absolutely everything.
There is no just accepting stuff like this.....when is everyone going to just stand up and say NO?!?!
There is no just accepting stuff like this.....when is everyone going to just stand up and say NO?!?!
G
Guest
I suspect that using RFID for tracking would depend heavily on several things, to include advancements in low-frequency, low-output signal tracking in satellites/other equipment, etc.
The parts of the RFID thing that concern -me- most are those issues raised in EFF's writings, etc.; the prospects for I.D. theft, and the gov's ability to write code into an object about the holder of that object, that the holder can't necessrily readily read. Just 'cause it hasn't happened yet, or they say it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it isn't opening up the door for it to happen later.
Their interest in persons' credit histories and cash transactions are already made evident in the USA PATRIOT Act, and elsewhere.
Are they -really- just interested in whether or not Osama buys his gf a diamond necklace at Sac's 5th Ave, or is this about control of currency? Money equals power.
The various proposed 'national I.D.' plans have sometimes contained all kinds of info. about real property holdings, credit history, etc. Stuff that I wouldn't necessarily want any old flat-foot knowing about me, for a variety of reasons.
Remember Poindexter's proposed Total Information Awareness project that Congress shot down under significant pressure, after which Shrub then quietly handed off the idea to Fla., and a number of other states, with a wink and a nod?
I think that the prospect of government cataloguing information on citizens is very real, and very dangerous. Especially considering that much of the Feds' info to date has often come from such outrageous places as credit bureaus, and is frequently found to be completely inaccurate.
Now ask me how many of my automobiles have an 'OnStar' system in them.. ;^>)
moose eater
The parts of the RFID thing that concern -me- most are those issues raised in EFF's writings, etc.; the prospects for I.D. theft, and the gov's ability to write code into an object about the holder of that object, that the holder can't necessrily readily read. Just 'cause it hasn't happened yet, or they say it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it isn't opening up the door for it to happen later.
Their interest in persons' credit histories and cash transactions are already made evident in the USA PATRIOT Act, and elsewhere.
Are they -really- just interested in whether or not Osama buys his gf a diamond necklace at Sac's 5th Ave, or is this about control of currency? Money equals power.
The various proposed 'national I.D.' plans have sometimes contained all kinds of info. about real property holdings, credit history, etc. Stuff that I wouldn't necessarily want any old flat-foot knowing about me, for a variety of reasons.
Remember Poindexter's proposed Total Information Awareness project that Congress shot down under significant pressure, after which Shrub then quietly handed off the idea to Fla., and a number of other states, with a wink and a nod?
I think that the prospect of government cataloguing information on citizens is very real, and very dangerous. Especially considering that much of the Feds' info to date has often come from such outrageous places as credit bureaus, and is frequently found to be completely inaccurate.
Now ask me how many of my automobiles have an 'OnStar' system in them.. ;^>)
moose eater
bluebublelove
Active member
good to see you still posting hear moose eater....
all this talk is enough reason for me to expediate plans for a biodiesel harley and an ak.
9lives kinda nailed it with the 1984 comparison, terrorism has been around since the beggining of civil living and will always be....our governments are simply using it as an excuse to hold the to key our private lives and personal securitys and freedoms...
"-we- should be watching -them- a -whole lot- closer than they should be watching us.." true.
and we should be offended to the point of outrage.
all this talk is enough reason for me to expediate plans for a biodiesel harley and an ak.
9lives kinda nailed it with the 1984 comparison, terrorism has been around since the beggining of civil living and will always be....our governments are simply using it as an excuse to hold the to key our private lives and personal securitys and freedoms...
"-we- should be watching -them- a -whole lot- closer than they should be watching us.." true.
and we should be offended to the point of outrage.
G
Guest
Hey bluebublelove,
How ya' doin'??!!
I'd seen your name in the users online menu a time or two, and had considered sending a PM. Shamefully, I didn't.
Hope that all that was tossin' in your life this last Winter has found a mellow even keel to ride out.
The gov has already made significant strides in using cell phones to track people. That issue's been a back-n-forth thing in the courts. (Bless John Gilmore and those like him..)
I didn't know what time of day I was born until I went through some estate stuff this last year. And I'm closer to 50 now than not. None of my remaining distantly-extended family knew either. But I'd be willin' to bet that the government knew... It's always bugged me when I think of the possibility/probability that they know more about me than I do. ;^>)
Ya' know what I mean?
Of course, some day, if I ever hit that point of dimentia where I can't recall where I was or what I did, there's a chance that having someone like that around might be beneficial... ;^>) But even then, I prefer to be the one choosing who it is that's gonna' keep tabs on me, for me...
Take care, and say 'hi' to that "great big bong." ;^>)
moose eater
How ya' doin'??!!
I'd seen your name in the users online menu a time or two, and had considered sending a PM. Shamefully, I didn't.
Hope that all that was tossin' in your life this last Winter has found a mellow even keel to ride out.
The gov has already made significant strides in using cell phones to track people. That issue's been a back-n-forth thing in the courts. (Bless John Gilmore and those like him..)
I didn't know what time of day I was born until I went through some estate stuff this last year. And I'm closer to 50 now than not. None of my remaining distantly-extended family knew either. But I'd be willin' to bet that the government knew... It's always bugged me when I think of the possibility/probability that they know more about me than I do. ;^>)
Ya' know what I mean?
Of course, some day, if I ever hit that point of dimentia where I can't recall where I was or what I did, there's a chance that having someone like that around might be beneficial... ;^>) But even then, I prefer to be the one choosing who it is that's gonna' keep tabs on me, for me...
Take care, and say 'hi' to that "great big bong." ;^>)
moose eater
G
Guest
BTW, bbl,
My last Electraglide's now gone. I didn't whimper about her loss this Summer too badly, perhaps 'cause there'll hopefully come another. Get the priorities outa' the way over the next couple of years, and find another homeless Glide to make my own. Shucks, now I -do- miss her..
moose eater
My last Electraglide's now gone. I didn't whimper about her loss this Summer too badly, perhaps 'cause there'll hopefully come another. Get the priorities outa' the way over the next couple of years, and find another homeless Glide to make my own. Shucks, now I -do- miss her..
moose eater
bluebublelove
Active member
Thats too bad, cause a classic electraglide with a sidecar rigged for the dog would be ideal. thats an irritating thought indeed to know that "they" know more about "us" than we know about ourselves...let alone "them" whoever "they" are.
G
Guest
You know..... 'the others.' ;^>)
I never rigged any of mine with a side-car, though my wife and I had talked about putting the kids on home-bound schooling for a time, hooking up a trailer to a converted school bus, touring the continent(s) with some degree of 'self-containedness,' and having a couple of Glides with side-cars sufficient for three kids, the large m'loot, the Remington 870, and she and I.
We figured that it would've been a bit more 'real' than a stuffy sleep-inducing social studies or geography course. ;^>)
But there's always tomorrow.... Until there's not..
moose eater
I never rigged any of mine with a side-car, though my wife and I had talked about putting the kids on home-bound schooling for a time, hooking up a trailer to a converted school bus, touring the continent(s) with some degree of 'self-containedness,' and having a couple of Glides with side-cars sufficient for three kids, the large m'loot, the Remington 870, and she and I.
We figured that it would've been a bit more 'real' than a stuffy sleep-inducing social studies or geography course. ;^>)
But there's always tomorrow.... Until there's not..
moose eater
bluebublelove
Active member
That, my friend is americana at its best. although the way its been unfolding nowadays, it seems as though more and more the above said dream may one day be a neccasary way of life for us americans. a trip like that for your kids would be more like a social studies and geography course, punctuated by adventure and sleep. from tropical usa, sending the most positive of vibes.
-bluebuble
-bluebuble
G
Guest
Thanks, bluebuble, Same to you and yours.
I've wanted to film such a trip, repeatedly zig-zagging from coast to coast, through North, Central, and South Americas, and then take highlights and dub it to a wide array of music background. Perhaps numerous finished 'reels' when complete. Again, someday....
Take good care,
moose eater
I've wanted to film such a trip, repeatedly zig-zagging from coast to coast, through North, Central, and South Americas, and then take highlights and dub it to a wide array of music background. Perhaps numerous finished 'reels' when complete. Again, someday....
Take good care,
moose eater
G
Guest
In response to the idea of them tracking people everywhere. Think of it like this. There are readers in almost every store you go into already. There are, or will be, readers in banks, govt buildings, all the ports, airports, etc.
As far as my idea being crazy, did you know retailers do it already? Some chains give away customer reward cards with RFID chips in them. They can basically track you all the way around the store, track your purchases, etc and use that info to try and sell you more stuff. Some chains have hidden cameras in so many places you wouldn't believe it. They do this for the same reason, to watch your every move. There are many displays where you might be looking at a box of cereal, and a camera is looking right back at you from the shelves. So don't tell me I'm crazy....it's already going on!!!! DOH!
RFID doesn't add anything they haven't had for years with a magnetic strip on your license, EXCEPT the ability to store and retrieve data in a covert way. With magnetic strips they have to actually stop you and swipe your id to get to the info, which is what they want you to believe will happen with RFID......ha ha ha yeah right!
I'm far beyond outraged. I'm about busting at the seams because this isn't a joke anymore. I want a truely free life like I am supposed to be gauranteed by the constitution. I'm tired of these assinine interpretations of black and white, plain as day written law and the constant feeling of the walls closing in. I'm tired of completely senseless laws made by grown men and women without a clue. I'm tired of 99% of people who have no earthly idea what is really going on, and also have no idea of what life is REALLY supposed to be like. What makes me sickest of all is that it will probably turn into our armed forces mindlessly exerting power of citizens of our own country like they did with shoot to kill orders in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina.
As far as my idea being crazy, did you know retailers do it already? Some chains give away customer reward cards with RFID chips in them. They can basically track you all the way around the store, track your purchases, etc and use that info to try and sell you more stuff. Some chains have hidden cameras in so many places you wouldn't believe it. They do this for the same reason, to watch your every move. There are many displays where you might be looking at a box of cereal, and a camera is looking right back at you from the shelves. So don't tell me I'm crazy....it's already going on!!!! DOH!
RFID doesn't add anything they haven't had for years with a magnetic strip on your license, EXCEPT the ability to store and retrieve data in a covert way. With magnetic strips they have to actually stop you and swipe your id to get to the info, which is what they want you to believe will happen with RFID......ha ha ha yeah right!
I'm far beyond outraged. I'm about busting at the seams because this isn't a joke anymore. I want a truely free life like I am supposed to be gauranteed by the constitution. I'm tired of these assinine interpretations of black and white, plain as day written law and the constant feeling of the walls closing in. I'm tired of completely senseless laws made by grown men and women without a clue. I'm tired of 99% of people who have no earthly idea what is really going on, and also have no idea of what life is REALLY supposed to be like. What makes me sickest of all is that it will probably turn into our armed forces mindlessly exerting power of citizens of our own country like they did with shoot to kill orders in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina.
I think you have an overabundant imagination on the technical capabilitites of rfid chips and rfid readers and the reasons they would use it. The rfid chips needed to be read from a good distance are pretty big, big enough where its not going to be a small chip. The readers that read them from a distance are really expensive. When all it would take to foil a multimillion dollar tracking security system is to put the rfid device in a tin foil lined bag/wallet. What use is it on a wide scale? What purpose would it serve to have security track only the card holders?
When you start talking about tracking on a global scale like that of onstar and the likes you can forget that technology being rfid. Its all gps transmitters and recievers, a hella lot larger than your avg rfid chip.
The dutch came out with the passports originally and had problems with them being to be able to be scanned from a distance. The US fixed it with a foil based page and metal strip down the binding making it considerably more difficult to be read more than
comfort distance. [ ie the person would have to know what pocket you had it in and come bumping close in order to read it. ]
When you start talking about tracking on a global scale like that of onstar and the likes you can forget that technology being rfid. Its all gps transmitters and recievers, a hella lot larger than your avg rfid chip.
The dutch came out with the passports originally and had problems with them being to be able to be scanned from a distance. The US fixed it with a foil based page and metal strip down the binding making it considerably more difficult to be read more than
comfort distance. [ ie the person would have to know what pocket you had it in and come bumping close in order to read it. ]
G
Guest
Hi Verite,
Using Schipol as an example, and assuming that it hasn't been revamped since i was there last; first you go through the walkway going away from the unloading gates at the aircraft.
You then walk through the brief maze, where the Customs fellow, in what looks like a judge's throne, towering over everyone, has everyone raise their passports above their heads, (just to make sure that everyone at least appears to have one) as they flow en masse through to the Immigration desk area, where they go into smaller lines and several operating lanes of Immigration Officers.
Immediately across from those lanes are the exit doors that take you out into an unrestricted area with the standard chairs, phones, etc., around the walls.
If the working distance of a scanner is 60 feet, as was alleged in my various readings, then theoretically, anyone in a non-restricted area with a scanner married to a palm pilot could be scanning passports -as they're opened up- by Immigration, which is where Immigration typically takes a closer look at them.
I don't think that there's as much hazzard to them simply being closed in your pocket. I -do- think that when they're -open- that they might be remotely scannable. That's the I.D. theft concern for me in a nut-shell. The foil strips aren't likely to protect it when it's open, no?
Then, like I said before, Uncle Sam seems to have a serious interest in cataloguing as much extraneous (often bullshit) info. on citizens as possible these days. That's almost as serious a concern as I.D. theft in my list of priorities.
In my opnion, the second and third world countries are looking better and better all the time. Technology tends to be one of those double-edged swords.
moose eater
Using Schipol as an example, and assuming that it hasn't been revamped since i was there last; first you go through the walkway going away from the unloading gates at the aircraft.
You then walk through the brief maze, where the Customs fellow, in what looks like a judge's throne, towering over everyone, has everyone raise their passports above their heads, (just to make sure that everyone at least appears to have one) as they flow en masse through to the Immigration desk area, where they go into smaller lines and several operating lanes of Immigration Officers.
Immediately across from those lanes are the exit doors that take you out into an unrestricted area with the standard chairs, phones, etc., around the walls.
If the working distance of a scanner is 60 feet, as was alleged in my various readings, then theoretically, anyone in a non-restricted area with a scanner married to a palm pilot could be scanning passports -as they're opened up- by Immigration, which is where Immigration typically takes a closer look at them.
I don't think that there's as much hazzard to them simply being closed in your pocket. I -do- think that when they're -open- that they might be remotely scannable. That's the I.D. theft concern for me in a nut-shell. The foil strips aren't likely to protect it when it's open, no?
Then, like I said before, Uncle Sam seems to have a serious interest in cataloguing as much extraneous (often bullshit) info. on citizens as possible these days. That's almost as serious a concern as I.D. theft in my list of priorities.
In my opnion, the second and third world countries are looking better and better all the time. Technology tends to be one of those double-edged swords.
moose eater
G
Guest
None of what I said is based in imagination. If I can find the article I will post a link to more information showing how this is done. Look, RFID chips can be read on a stolen item hidden on your person anywhere. Don't believe me? Try this: pick up a pack of Gillette Mach3 razor blades....you know, the real expensive ones. Put it in your pocket, and try to walk out of wal-mart. Heck, put it in the foil and see if that works because I have heard rumor to the contrary on that point.
However, if I'm wrong, and since these things are so expensive....What other logical explanation is there for them needing a chip in your ID that can be read up to 60ft away? It's not just to store info, a magnetic strip already does that. If they simply wanted to store your basic info, why change from cheap magnetic strips that take very little technology to make or read over to something extremely expensive to produce and utilize? Scanners in squad cars could read your info as they drive by. Talk about being searched without a warrant! It's even worse being searched without having any idea about it.
Add in the fact that the US govt is illegaly mining all banking data, phone calls, e-mails, credit histories, and just about any other information they can grab under their new Draconian laws. Yet, people still want to play the "why would they do that?" bit. It's very simple to understand. Totalitarian control.
However, if I'm wrong, and since these things are so expensive....What other logical explanation is there for them needing a chip in your ID that can be read up to 60ft away? It's not just to store info, a magnetic strip already does that. If they simply wanted to store your basic info, why change from cheap magnetic strips that take very little technology to make or read over to something extremely expensive to produce and utilize? Scanners in squad cars could read your info as they drive by. Talk about being searched without a warrant! It's even worse being searched without having any idea about it.
Add in the fact that the US govt is illegaly mining all banking data, phone calls, e-mails, credit histories, and just about any other information they can grab under their new Draconian laws. Yet, people still want to play the "why would they do that?" bit. It's very simple to understand. Totalitarian control.
Cannabis Motiva
Member
This thread is 10 years old, but at this point in time, I don't believe that anyone still has a valid passport that is NOT chipped.
The type of chip used isn't like a computer chip, it's a grid of ultra thin metal of some kind. Basically, if you've ever seen the inside/backside of the aquare white stickers that stores attach to items to prevent theft - well, that's what's inside the back cover of your passport.
I got a new one recently and the first thing I did was break it. First, I put the passport in the freezer for 2 hours to get that thin metal nice & cold and crispy. Then I took it out, set it on my concrete garage floor on top of a brown paper bag. Opened it, set a block of wood on the pages to hold it open while leaving the inside rear cover of the passport exposed (that's where the chip is). Then I put a washcloth over the inside of the back cover to prevent tearing or smashing the cover and gave it an extremely hard smash with a 9 pound sledge. The washcloth prevented damage and the paper bag prevented scuffing from the concrete floor.
I was at the airport and when customs tried to wave my passport over a scanner it didn't work. They then simply swiped the page with the bar code on it or typed in my passport # (I forget) and then sent me on my way.
No problems at all, and I'm sure it's no longer working.
The type of chip used isn't like a computer chip, it's a grid of ultra thin metal of some kind. Basically, if you've ever seen the inside/backside of the aquare white stickers that stores attach to items to prevent theft - well, that's what's inside the back cover of your passport.
I got a new one recently and the first thing I did was break it. First, I put the passport in the freezer for 2 hours to get that thin metal nice & cold and crispy. Then I took it out, set it on my concrete garage floor on top of a brown paper bag. Opened it, set a block of wood on the pages to hold it open while leaving the inside rear cover of the passport exposed (that's where the chip is). Then I put a washcloth over the inside of the back cover to prevent tearing or smashing the cover and gave it an extremely hard smash with a 9 pound sledge. The washcloth prevented damage and the paper bag prevented scuffing from the concrete floor.
I was at the airport and when customs tried to wave my passport over a scanner it didn't work. They then simply swiped the page with the bar code on it or typed in my passport # (I forget) and then sent me on my way.
No problems at all, and I'm sure it's no longer working.
