Need Advice Germinating Old Seeds

[Hundred Gram Oz]

Very nice score Grunt, you want to get your hands on some Gibberellic Acid. Get, GA3, you shouldn't have any trouble finding it. Deffo get it bro, if they are going to germinate then this is the stuff that will make it happen. Keep them genetics alive, old skool skunk is hard to come by.

 

[John Deere]

I've got a big jar of bagseed that's between 10-12 years old. I soak the seeds in tap water for 24 hours and then stick them into soil or coco. (not too deep) I rarely have seeds fail.

I used to germ them on paper towels but I got tired of damaging those tiny roots and killing plants when transplanting so just started going straight to soil. No problems since.

 

[smoke1sun]

I would have to agree on going the "old fashion" soil route.

This thread has some great info in it.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133907

 

[Grunt]

Shakalaka, I read in a post somewhere that Australia had shut down access so I just took it to be true. Good to hear they're still accessible. keep those replies comin'. I'm learnin new stuff and thats excellent. Its why I joined IC.

 

[Shakalaka]

germinating 20yr old SSSC Sk#1 seeds

germinating 20yr old SSSC Sk#1 seeds

I think it has been added to the government's "black list". If the laws go through.... It will be censored.

 

[VirginHarvester]

Just curious, isn't the reason for germing to increase the likelihood of sprouting then you can place in dirt? I'm not saying to place in soil is wrong I just thought the percentage of success goes up if you germ. Also, putting in soil seems like a tough waiting game on 20 year old seeds so that one would wonder if anything's happening down there and become impatient. I can't say which would be best, don't know, I just thought germing increases overall success.

Awesome thing you're doing. If it works you can resurrect the strain. It's probably mythical.

 

[hard rain]

Germinating old seeds

Germinating old seeds

I know this has been answered before but I can't find where?

What are the best methods for germinating old seeds that have been badly stored?

 

[DocLeaf]

Throw 4-5 into a cup of soil,, and place on the side at 21c.

We find older seeds take longer to germinate,, and are best left to nature.

hope this helps

 

[hard rain]

Throw 4-5 into a cup of soil,, and place on the side at 21c.

We find older seeds take longer to germinate,, and are best left to nature.

hope this helps

Yeah thanks. So it's mainly temperature and time then?

Thanks also to whoever merged my question with this thread.

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Germinating Old Seed Stock

Germinating Old Seed Stock

I have a number of older seeds in my collection and wanted to start a thread for fellow members to contribute on tips and techniques to successfully germ these seeds. Some of my oldest are nearing 10 years old. Topics to include:

scratching/scuffing
Pre soaks (DMSO, Thrive alive, etc.)

Any other methods folks have found to be successful.

I will be starting some older seed stock in March and hope to employ best techniques for comparison.

Thanks in advance for your contributions!

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

I found this on Mandala's web site. They recommend soaking only for older seeds. I have kept my seeds with lots of desiccant, so I know they will be thirsty to start.

Due to our high standard of pollination, attentive grow methods, and the dedicated hand selection of seed stock for sales, our seeds are always perfectly matured and can be quite large. They also possess a particularly intact and hard seed hull. The robust genetics of our cannabis varieties, and our innovative Deluxe seed production methods, leads to the development of healthy and strong seeds with a good resistance against environmental factors. Due to the firm seed hull and large size some of our seeds may require a slightly longer germination time. Most seeds sprout in record time and others take a bit longer. Once the seedling grows through the substrate it will develop quickly and vigorously regardless of the germination time.

For an optimal germination result the seeds should be planted DIRECTLY into the substrate. We clearly advise against using pre-germination methods or soaking. Please do not place the seeds into a glass of water or in moist paper tissues.

This does not mean that pre-soaking should never be used with seeds from other sources, or that we criticize growers who prefer this method. We are aware that some breeders recommend it for their products. But to prevent complications and achieve the consistent level of high germination rates that you should be getting from your Mandala seeds please trust our advice and follow our guidelines.

Please take note that customers who soak their Mandala seeds in water or wet paper tissue do so at their own risk. We are not accountable for any failure in germination or complications caused by this method.

Fresh and healthy seeds prefer a nurturing and airy substrate to germinate in – just as mother nature has meant it to be. Cannabis is a plant species originating from semi-arid and temperate biotopes and the vast majority of modern cannabis hybrids contain a substantial percentage of these genetics. Cannabis seeds are not adapted to swampy wetlands, but they are suited for germinating in well drained soil/substrate. In nature they rot if they fall into a puddle of water...and there are no paper tissues lying around either. Taking into account these botanical facts, it is quite logical that by creating germination conditions that are similar to those of the natural habitat you can expect the best results.
What happens if one uses pre-germination methods?

Soaking seeds in water/wet paper towels is a method which can be used for old seeds (3+ years) that are drying up and losing germination power; and for pure land race equatorial strains such as from Africa. Both factors do not apply to our seeds. Fresh seeds have a healthy embryo whose cells are filled with water. But excess water causes the cells to bloat, depletes oxygen and leads to the tissue rotting away before the seed embryo can germinate. Old seeds have lost water in the cell tissue, the embryo starts to shrivel, which is why germination rates drop the older the seeds are. Therefore, old seeds (ie. 3+ years) can soak up more water before adverse conditions cause them to rot. This is one of the main reasons why various seed stock reacts differently to pre-germination methods. Some growers make the mistake of soaking our seeds in water for up to 1-2 days because it may have worked in the past with other seeds. This does not mean, however, that this method can be used for all seeds. In fact, old stock or equatorial cannabis seeds should only be soaked in water for a few hours at the most. Always consult the web site of a seed bank for specific advice and instructions on how to germinate their seeds.

It is in a growers best interest to choose a germination method with the lowest risk of complications. Because we want customers to have the highest success rate possible we recommend the most convenient and safest method. This does not mean it is the only option. We simply believe it carries the lowest risk for germinating fresh seeds. Planting seeds directly in the substrate is also the most plant friendly method for any type of seed stock. The reasons are explained below in paragraph 2 & 3.

Placing healthy & fresh seeds in water/wet tissue can lead to the development of fungi or bacteria on the seed hull. Lack of oxygen and contaminating substances in the water/wet tissue promote fungal growth which can be transported to the substrate later on. Often the seed simply rots away if left for too long in a glass of water, or wrapped up in wet tissue.

Once the seed sprouts in a glass of water or paper tissue it already has the taproot growing out of the cracked seed hull. While transplanting the germinated seed it is very difficult, indeed impossible, to prevent damage to the delicate taproot. Many sprouted seedlings handled in this way show retarded development, or even simply fail to appear out of the substrate after transplantation. Handling seedlings this way can impair the health & vigour of the plant for the duration of it’s life cycle - especially if other disturbing factors occur during the early stages of growth.

Professional horticulturists rarely use pre-germination methods to actually grow out the seedlings because of the shock suffered from transplanting them. For example, we use the paper tissue method only as a quick test for germination rates of aged seed stock from our genetic repository. This allows us to see beforehand how many seeds we have to put in soil to get the amount of plants we require for breeding projects.

Germinating cannabis seeds is not difficult. All you need is some basic information on what is important and everything should work out fine.

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Info on using gibberillic acid.

Gibberellic Acid-3 (GA-3) is a naturally occurring plant growth regulator which may cause a variety of effects including the stimulation of seed germination in some cases. GA-3 occurs naturally in the seeds of many species and is produced commercially by growing Gibberella fujikuroi fungus cultures in vats, then extracting and purifying the GA-3.
Presoaking seeds in GA-3 solution will in many cases cause the rapid germination of many types of highly dormant seeds which would otherwise need cold treatment, after-ripening or aging, Or other prolonged pretreatments. Many different types of dormancy are overcome with GA-3, and excellent results are obtained with many ordinarily difficult seeds.
Not all seeds respond well. A great deal of research needs to be done to determine which species benefit, and the proper concentration of GA-3 for each type. We are pleased to offer the GA-3 kits at the bottom of this page which contain everything you need to presoak seeds and study GA-3 effects.

GA-3 is safe to use. It is naturally present in many foods, is routinely sprayed on food crops, and is approved by most organic certification programs.

We sell this product for the study of seed germination only.

Gibberellins were discovered by Japanese plant pathologists studying "bakanae" disease ("foolish seedling") of rice, in which seedlings grow elongated and die. In 1898 Shotaro Hori demonstrated that it was caused by a fungus, now known as Gibberella fujikuroi. In 1926 Eiichi Kurosawa reported that a chemical produced by the fungus caused the symptoms, and that the substance was heat-resistant, not losing its activity after 4 hours at 100°C (212°F). In 1935 Teijiro Yabuta first isolated a non-crystalline solid and named it Gibberellin. In 1938, Yabuta and Yusuke Sumiki first isolated a crystalline compound from the cultured fungus.

Since this time, 79 different gibberellins have been isolated, many of these from the seeds of a wide variety of species. Gibberellic acid-3 (GA-3) is the most widely used, and is produced commercially by growing the fungus in huge vats and then extracting and purifying the GA-3.

Many different gibberellins are present in common plants. Rice contains fourteen GAs, and rice anthers contain up to 3.4 micrograms of GA-4 per gram fresh weight. Maize (corn) seed contains twelve GAs, maize pollen 9 GAs, wheat and barley contain 5, and 4 day old wheat seedlings contain 11. GAs are produced in the roots of onions and act as bulb suppressants, preventing the swelling of the bulb until the proper time. GAs control sex differentiation in cucurbits, spinach, hemp and maize. GAs control shoot elongation in many plants, and dwarf forms of some plants are due to GA deficiencies. Developing peach seeds are rich in GA-32 and extracts have been used to induce flowering in Xanthium and Perilla. Ferns produce GA-related compounds called antheridiogens which trigger antheridia formation.

Gibberellins are used in agriculture for various purposes. GA-3 is sprayed on seedless grapes to increase grape size and yield, and it is used on navel oranges, lemons, blueberries, sweet and tart cherries, artichokes and other crops to decrease or increase fruit set, delay rind aging, etc. These effects are highly dependent on concentration and stage of plant growth. For example, 0.02 micrograms GA-3 promotes flowering of dwarf Ipomoea nil, but 2 - 20 micrograms inhibits flowering. Ten micrograms of GA-3 applied to pea seedlings nearly doubled shoot length if applied at 3 days old, but barely affected 9 day old seedlings. GA-3 and GA-13 trigger female cone formation in almost all Taxodiaceae and Cupressaceae-- an 8 month old seedling of Sequoiadendron produced a female cone after weekly GA applications. Extremely small amounts of GAs may cause effects- as little as 2 nanograms (billionths of a gram) can trigger cone formation in a Cupressus arizonica shoot-tip. The Pinaceae do not form cones with GA-3, but need GA-4, 7 and 9. This property is used to speed up tree-breeding programs. GA is used to trigger flowering of sweet potatoes in breeding programs, to help tomatoes set fruit at high temperatures in the tropics, and to stimulate flowering in the Araceae, such as in breeding taro. GA-3 applied to seed of Chinese cabbage overcomes the need for chilling or long days to trigger flowering, so is used in the tropics for breeding.

Developing seeds are active sites of GA biosynthesis, and studies have found increases in GA levels in seeds during cold treatment and germination. The germination of old seeds has been improved with use of GA. Applied GA-3 may trigger dormant seed germination, in many cases overcoming the need for special or prolonged dormancy-breaking conditions such as cold. treatment, light, after-ripening, etc. We have designed these kits for the study of this effect.
Experimenting with GA-3
While many ordinarily difficult seeds will readily germinate using GA-3, it may kill other seeds or produce badly etiolated (elongated) seedlings that will not survive. Some species will be killed by 1000ppm (parts per million), not affected by 500ppm, but 750ppm will produce healthy seedlings. More research is needed by gardeners like you to determine which species benefit, and what treatment will produce healthy, normal seedlings and plants.

Each type of seed should have a control, a test of untreated seed to compare against the GA-3 treated test. Otherwise, you will have no way of knowing whether GA-3 made a difference. We suggest you keep a record, with the name of the plant, seed source and date or year of harvest, the number of seeds tested, the treatment given, and the date test begun. As the seeds germinate, the number of seedlings, their condition and the date should be recorded. Once GA-3 is found to help a particular species, the next step is to test different concentrations to find the best solution to use.

Follow-up observations should include whether the plants develop, mature and bloom normally, since occasionally GA-3 will cause lifetime effects in the plant, as we have seen with the Chinese cabbage mentioned. Also note that if GA-3 is used for many generations of a plant, this may cause natural selection and result in a strain that will not germinate without added GA-3.


The folks at JL Hudson list the following methods of using Gibberellic Acid-3 (GA-3) for tests:

1. The Norman Deno Method
Developed by Dr. Norman Deno, this method dispenses with making stock solutions, so you may store the powdered GA-3 for long periods, and avoid discarding unused solution. For full details you should consult Deno's book. Briefly, a high wet-strength paper towel is folded in half 3 times to give a pad about 2 1/2 x 4 1/2" and is moistened with water. The last fold is opened, and a 3 x 3" piece of polyethylene cut from a plastic bag is placed in the center. A 2 1/2 x 2 1/2" piece of toweling is folded into a pad 1/2 x 1" and moistened with about 6 drops of water, and this is placed on the polyethylene. The seeds are placed on this inner pad and 1 cubic millimeter of the GA-3 powder is sprinkled on the pad.

2. The Bertrand Method
Developed by Stephen Bertrand, proprietor of The Perennial Flower Farm in northern Iowa, this is an efficient method for treating large numbers of seeds. Unbleached or oxygen-process whitened (chlorine-free) coffee filters are cut into 3" squares (larger for larger amounts of seed), and folded diagonally. The seed is placed in the center, the ends folded towards the center, and the top folded over and tucked in (jewelers fold). The name of the seed or a number can be written on the fold with indelible pen. GA-3 solution is placed in the wells of a small plastic cocktail-type ice cube tray (the type for tiny cubes), or in a regular ice cube tray for large amounts of seed. Each seed fold is placed in a well to wick. up the solution. If different concentrations of GA-3 are being tested at the same time, only every other well is used, to prevent cross-mixing. After 24 hours the folds are removed, blotted dry on a pad of toweling, and either sown or placed in new folds for pre-chilling (cold treatment) as described in Deno's book. The advantage of this method is that the GA-3 concentration can be accurately controlled, a necessity for certain seeds. The disadvantage is that the solution will eventually break down, resulting in decreasing concentrations or waste of solution.

We have simplified these methods by acquiring petri dishes with disposable pads, and offering premixed packs of Gibberellic Acid-3 (GA-3), ready to mix with water, more about that later.
Safety in Experimenting with GA-3
GA-3 is a natural organic compound, and its use is approved by most organic certification agencies.

GA-3 is considered 'relatively non-toxic'. According to the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), the LD50 (lethal dose 50) or the dose which kills 50% of the test animals, is 1000 to 25,000 milligrams per kilogram of body weight in mice, dogs and rats. Applied to humans, this would mean a 75 kilogram (165 pound) person could be killed by consuming between 75 and 1875 grams (2.6 ounces to about 4 pounds) of the 90% GA-3 powder. "In reproductive studies in rats, no maternal or fetal toxicity, or other adverse effects to the fetus were noted following large doses (1000mg/kg/day) of Gibberellic acid." --MSDS. The powder may cause eye irritation; in case of contact, flush with plenty of water.

The relative non-toxicity of GA-3 and its use on food crops should not encourage careless handling - always keep out of reach of children, avoid contact with skin, eyes and clothing, wash hands after using, or use rubber gloves. Do not use on food crops or for any other purpose than seed germination research. Properly dispose of toweling or filter papers after use, thoroughly wash implements, then rinse with vinegar, then rinse again.

Do not contaminate soil - GA-3 is highly persistent and bioactive and may remain in soil for some months and affect plant growth. A healthy organic soil with strong microbial growth will probably break it down fastest. Plants vary widely in their sensitivity to GA-3. Remember that while GA-3 is sprayed on table grapes at a rate of 1 milligram per 1.7 square feet (26 grams per acre), that same milligram could cause cone formation on 500,000 Cupressus shoots. Remember that while GA-3 is naturally present in common foods like corn, it is only in billionth of a gram quantities.
Making GA-3 Solutions
The basic stock solution of 1000ppm (parts per million) is prepared by dissolving GA-3 in water at a rate of 1mg (milligram, one thousandth of a gram) in 1 ml (milliliter, one thousandth of a liter). Therefore, a 100mg packet is dissolved in 100ml of water or a little less than 1/2 cup (0.42 cup), a 500mg packet in 500ml (2.1 cups), or a 1000mg (=1 gram) packet in 1000ml (=1 liter, or about 1 quart plus 1 cup) water.
Distilled water is best. GA-3 is slow to dissolve and may need prolonged stirring. You can just stir it in, then leave it overnight and it should be dissolved by morning. Other concentrations are prepared by diluting this stock solution.
To make 500ppm, mix equal amounts of 1000ppm and water. To make 750ppm, mix equal amounts of 1000ppm and 500ppm. To make 375ppm, mix equal parts 750ppm and water, and so on. Tiny amounts of these dilution for individual tests may be made up drop-wise - five drops 1000ppm plus five drops water to make 500ppm, etc.

Many workers use 1000ppm for everything, but this may be too strong for many seeds. Stephen Bertrand, after many years experience using GA-3, reports that he uses 500ppm for most species, due to less trouble with excessive elongation of seedlings, followed by 1000ppm, and lesser amounts of the 750ppm and 375ppm solutions. With many seeds, he says that a few in each lot will etiolate (elongate excessively), and the trick is to find the solution giving the most healthy seedlings.

Solutions of GA-3 are said to break down with time or exposure to sunlight, so store in a dark place. Kept in the dark it stores for years.

 

[Chronic Don]

I wonder what the price of there kits are? I have some already I bought 3 grams of it to use in experimenting with forcing male flowers to a female, I have read that to use a chemical/hormone to change a female causes less hermie seeds then using stress to get male flowers on a female does.

I got mine from rare exotic seeds, free shipping on over 10dollar order.

Gibberellic Acid Powder (GA3 90%)

Starting at: $3.80

Boost the germination ! Learn More
Add to Wishlist | Add to Compare

from http://www.rarexoticseeds.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=ga3

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Don, I've read it is tricky to find the right percentage of GA3 to use. Will continue to explore. Thanks for posting!

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

A seedling heating mat, humidity dome, and the temperature keep between 75-80 works for me everytime !

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Thanks LittleAmsterdam, how old are your seeds typically? I've got some I want to sprout from around middle 2007.

 

[libby]

Once the seed sprouts in a glass of water or paper tissue it already has the taproot growing out of the cracked seed hull. While transplanting the germinated seed it is very difficult, indeed impossible, to prevent damage to the delicate taproot. Many sprouted seedlings handled in this way show retarded development, or even simply fail to appear out of the substrate after transplantation. Handling seedlings this way can impair the health & vigour of the plant for the duration of it’s life cycle - especially if other disturbing factors occur during the early stages of growth.

Never noticed a difference, i think, totally with respect, your miles away. Some people may have trouble with it, not i, also need to add, any medium, at the right temp,and conditions can fire all seeds up, unless theyr'e dead.

 

[Time Bomb]

Who knows the best way to start old seeds?

Who knows the best way to start old seeds?

I'm thinkin paper towel method on a heating pad but is there a best way I don't know about. I really want some of these to germinate for me but they are OLD. I forget how old but I'm pretty sure they are from maybe the 70's, some old school Columbian Gold.

I don't know if I'm just unlucky but once my seeds get like 10 years old or more my germ rate drops to like 25% if I'm lucky. So teach me your ways fellow growers of old ass seeds. : These seeds are older than me but I have high...high hopes of getting high... yea, who can say colombian gold X Romulan or my maui wowie pheno cherry bomb would actually make one hell of a mean sativa...dammit now I'm getting ahead of myself, I just wanna start chucking columbian gold pollen on everything, if they are good anyway but I was told the herb they came out of was excellent. I have really good luck with making killer poly hybrids that most breeders would call pollen chucking lol.

 

[geopolitical]

Scratch up the seed coat thoroughly by using a matchbox or similar sized container with a bit of very fine (200+) grit sandpaper, toss them around for a few seconds. This helps thin the coat out a bit.

Then soak the seeds for 24 hours prior to planting in chlorine/etc free water. After this procedure they will be VERY delicate as the seed coat which should be paper thin is now pretty much jelly. This means the seeds are going to use up pretty much zero energy popping that coat.

Transfer directly into your sprouting medium and provide mild bottom heat. Have patience as very old seeds may take 4+ weeks to sprout in some cases, you may have some that sprout immediately, and the rest that are viable will have a very staggered germination. Too soon a toss and you may lose viable seeds that are just taking longer to wake up.

You may also find some will put out a few leaves and just sputter out. I don't know what causes this but I do notice it in older/badly stored batches of seed.

Good luck!

 

[paladin420]

Scratch up the seed coat thoroughly by using a matchbox or similar sized container with a bit of very fine (200+) grit sandpaper, toss them around for a few seconds. This helps thin the coat out a bit.

Then soak the seeds for 24 hours prior to planting in chlorine/etc free water. After this procedure they will be VERY delicate as the seed coat which should be paper thin is now pretty much jelly. This means the seeds are going to use up pretty much zero energy popping that coat.

Transfer directly into your sprouting medium and provide mild bottom heat. Have patience as very old seeds may take 4+ weeks to sprout in some cases, you may have some that sprout immediately, and the rest that are viable will have a very staggered germination. Too soon a toss and you may lose viable seeds that are just taking longer to wake up.

You may also find some will put out a few leaves and just sputter out. I don't know what causes this but I do notice it in older/badly stored batches of seed.

Good luck!

yes to all the above. Had some crackin issues this year old school lady had me put in frig prior to the water. After the matchbox. only 2 out of 10 that r growin. so far. fingers crossed -