Myco Myco Mycos!!!

[spunion]

RTI Mykos is the shit, it is pure endo-mycorrhizae spores, minus any of the other "filler" that other myco brands cut their shit w/ such as kelp, humics, and ecto-mycorrhizae.. It is way bomber than BS like plant success, great white, pirrana, myco madness, etc. and is a fraction of the cost per pound!

Someone was telling me this stuff was cheaper and did the same thing. I started using Great White a few months ago and love it. Especially good for real young plants that don't have much root mass yet.

 

[Biatchzxz]

I honestly didn't like labdabz comment saying that they are all BS compared to his product. that's not a fair comparison I thunk Great white and the others listed are quite great. Maybe you could of just said that it was cheaper and not that they are all BS. Just mythoughts.

 

[LoneWolf424]

Quote by Spurr:

"I just wanted to drop in real fast and post up some facts about AM fungi ("Arbuscular Mycorrhizal" fungi, a type of endomycorrhizal fungi), formally called VAM ("Vesicular-Arbuscular Mycorrhiza"). I noticed quite of few misconceptions in this thread and I hope to help provide a few corrections and insight. AM fungi are greatly misunderstood and misrepresented by most companies selling AM fungi. I think some of the points below may affect this thread in a positive manner:


1. P at the level of > 30 ppm P (not P2O5) greatly hinders AM fungi. Once P exceeds ~30-35 ppm sporulation is greatly hindered (pretty much stops), as well as infection of host roots and growth of "mycosphere" (re "extraradical mycelium"). Thus, if a conventional grower is using the Lucas formula, or anything with > ~30 ppm P, or if the soilless solution accrues > 30-35 ppm, AM fungi are not going to help the plant.


2. Once P levels are high enough (i.e., sufficient, at least ~20-30 ppm), the plant will reduce the 'food' (sugars) it gives to the AM fungi. This is because the plant doesn't need the AM fungi any longer because the plant has sufficient P. When the plant stops feeding the AM fungi, the AM fungi are greatly hindered ...


3. AM fungi are "fungi imperfecti", not "fungi perfecti". That means AM fungi (and any endomycorrhizal fungi) do not form fruit bodies, that is, they do not form mushrooms. So, if a grower sees fungi fruiting (producing mushrooms) it isn't from any type of AM fungi or other endomycorrhizal fungi.


4. Many spores in a commercial freeze-dried spore product will not germinate, and in fact, Dr. David Douds Ph.D. (a renown AM fungi researcher) told me on the phone that many of the commercial AM fungi products he tested had little to no germination! (all AM fungi products one can by online or at a store are freeze dried spores)


5. Many AM fungi products also include Trichomera spp., another type of fungi. However, Trichoderma spp. is a parasitic fungi, and there is strong evidence it will 'consume' AM fungi as spores and young hyphae, as well as mycelium. This isn't so much of a problem if Trichodram spp. is added after AM fungi has started infecting the host roots. The moral is, do not buy AM fungi product that has Trichoderma spp., if it can be avoided.


6. It takes at least a couple of weeks for AM fungi spores to germinate and start infecting host roots. Thus, if a grower adds Plant Success, even *if* the spores germinate (which is far from guaranteed) it will be at least 3-4 weeks until the host has been infected to a sufficient degree (ex., > 15-20% of root biomass-length). I have grown AM fungi many times using Bahia grass as host and a vermiculte/compost or vermiclute/vermicompost medium; I have used my microscope to that end.


7. Increased Co2 in media will increase growth rates of many AM fungi ...


8. I dislike Dr. Mike Amaranthus Ph.D business practices, from http://www.mycorrhizae.com/. Dr. Amaranthus's company is the source of AM fungi for Great White (i.e., Plant Success), and other brands selling AM fungi products in hydro stores. I dislike Dr. Amaranthus's business because I believe he is being disingenuous with some products he is selling, e.g., inclusion of Trichoderma spp. while refusing to show me data proving their tests found Trichoderma spp. did not hinder AM fungi and instead help AM fungi. Not only that, but by inferring his company produces their own products, which is false according to a good friend of mine* he is further being disingenuous.

* My good friend told me a contact he has at Premier (the peat moss company), told him Premier sells Dr. Amaranthus all Dr. Amaranthus's AM fungi products wholesale, and Dr. Amaranthus simply re-packages.

9. Addition of humic acid, yucca, glycine, carbs, etc., to AM fungi products does not help AM fungi; it's not 'food' for AM fungi. It's just fluff to make a person think they are getting a 'better' product.


10. It's not possible to know if, and to what degree, AM fungi may have infected host roots without (slightly) complicated root staining and "arbuscule" identification inside said root(s). See the following pages for assay guides, the most common assay for root infection (aka "association") is MIP ("Mean Infection Percentage"). One method a grower could use to see if the host is infected is to look at the root(s) under a microscope to see if hyphae are extruding from the root; however, that isn't the best method because it doesn't identify arbuscles inside the roots:

(assay explanations) http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/assays/assayindex.htm
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/myc...ycorrindex.htm
http://mycorrhizas.info/method.html


11. Here are a few good sources of sound science on AM fungi, further reading if anyone is interested:

International Culture Collection of (Vesicular) Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi: link (this is where I tend to get live cultures)
Mycorrhizal Associations: The Web Resource: link
Mycorrhiza Literature Exchange: link



12. Here are two worthwhile reads from INVAM:

"Culture methods and inoculum production: A reality check"
INVAM, Newsletter Vol. 4, No. 2; September, 1994
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/a.../culturing.htm

"The relationship between colonization and sporulation as affected by environment and competition"
INVAM Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 2
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/a...ompetition.htm

So, what does that all mean you may ask:

It means in most cases for indoor growers, especially for conventional growers, AM fungi is not going to infect host roots (or will not infect to a worthwhile degree). That means I highly doubt this side by side thread is going to give useful data or evidence, even though I commend SKAGITMAGIC on the thread idea. I think this side by side could/should be conducted differently to get useable data/results."

End quote




I love the use of mycorhyze. Pricy but worth it. Plant success has great products. I use plant success granular 3 1 2, Great White, Pirahana, azomite, and a pinch of Peice Of Mind Fruit n Flower in final transplant. They LOVE it. You just have to watch EXACTLY what your putting in there, or you'll kill em.

 

[Biatchzxz]

Thanks for the excellent information. Always nice to soak up some more info. Hooked you up! This is stuff I love to learn about. Really takes it to the next level of understanding what really goes on!

 

[LoneWolf424]

I found this too. Its what my buddies runnin with for the most part. he said he ammends his soil with kelp, ewc, azomite, dolamite, plus some extras. He said he uses enzymes, both light and dark, humic and fulvic acid. and day 36 then he starts addin carbs, budswell the first week of flush. PRIMO!!!! Just to note, the Roots product is Trinity,

I have always used beneficial fungi's/bacterias in my sould and continue to feen them with complex carbs/humic/fulvic acids and organic liquid compost. I expect huge yields from my organic set up and most of the time i get huge yields. My last plants of Durban Poison yielded 14oz's from 2 plants in 3 gallon pots each. That's 7oz's per plant in a 3gal pot!!! Fuckin incredible, not possible withough beneficials in the soil. I now almost always expect to get at least 5oz's a plant in a 3gal pot and over a halp pound in a 7gal air pot. Just remember to feed your microherd everywatering with complex carbs and humic acids! This is the dirt I use already loaded with all the goodies. Peace and love all, Stagger And this is what i use to feed the microherd... If you dont believe me check out my results in my photo albums, the results speak for themselves! Much love all, Stagger

 

[petemoss]

...
Mycos take almost 5 weeks to become effective. They need to come out of the spores, infect the root, make a symbiosis with it, grow their hairs outside roots (2-3 weeks are needed for this) and then spread in the medium outside in search of nutrients to be delivered to roots in exchange of sugars from leaves' photosyntesis.
,,...

So basically you need them at the time of mixing soil before planting.
After 4 wks you can refresh with some new, but once a root is infected, mycos grow along with the roots.
They're TRULY helpful...
...

I was surprised to hear that mycos take weeks to become effective. What attracted me to mycorrhizal products such as Great White were pictures of lush white roots exploding out of a starter cube. If what you say is true, then impressive initial root growth can't be attributed to mycorrhizal fungi, which take weeks to work. If I'm after fast and vigorous roots, should I be looking at root enhancer products such as Rhizotonic or Root Excelurator?

 

[Biatchzxz]

I've gotten Explosive root growth using myco and roots excel. Like within a day or 2 after transplant I get white fuzzys coming out the bottom. So I don't know weeks for them to work but maybe weeks for them to grow the herd. From what I have experienced The mycos start working as soon as they come in contact with roots.

 

[petemoss]

I've gotten Explosive root growth using myco and roots excel. Like within a day or 2 after transplant I get white fuzzys coming out the bottom. So I don't know weeks for them to work but maybe weeks for them to grow the herd. From what I have experienced The mycos start working as soon as they come in contact with roots.

Yup, explosive root growth, that's what I'm after! Biatchzxz, could it be that it was the roots excel that caused the fast start and not the mycos? Just to make sure, I'm going to use both, Great White for the mycos and rhizotonic for the root growth enhancement. Damn, these additives are getting expensive!

 

[Biatchzxz]

I mean yeah absolutely could very well be the rOots excel. Def won't put it past that. But I've used many different mycos also before using it and had great results. Maybe not as fast but within a few days or so. But I def think you got a point though

 

[dr.penthotal]

I was surprised to hear that mycos take weeks to become effective. What attracted me to mycorrhizal products such as Great White were pictures of lush white roots exploding out of a starter cube. If what you say is true, then impressive initial root growth can't be attributed to mycorrhizal fungi, which take weeks to work. If I'm after fast and vigorous roots, should I be looking at root enhancer products such as Rhizotonic or Root Excelurator?

This is a good point. I love root explosion, but we need to focus on the biology that goes under to understand this completely... I refer to the wonderful book "Teaming with microbes" a necessary tool for the bio gardener. For people who want to know why and didn't already... take a look at it!!

I know this thing you mean. I give a few drops of root excell or rhizotonic or root something and my roots go wild and large and fill my container. I love this. I used a few drops of this on my clones and liked it. This is the direct action of a rooting hormone on plants that makes it produce roots. Shelf products are all right, but in doubt if organics.

Lonewolf pointed out some real facts on mycos to take in account.
One of them is that any salt above very, very low concentrations is going to disrupt the enviroment and kill them all together with most of bacterias. Any chemical fertilizer is going to do this. This is good for fertilizer company. Because after destroying soil biology you'll become dependant from those salts to keep your plants going...

About root enhancers you can go organics anyway with fermented plant extracts like willow tree (yes, even aspirin is a root enhancer...) or nettles or horsetail. they're powerful as rhizo xyz tonic whatever.
Think that you can brew a plant specific hormon stimulator even using an handful of cannabis seeds, germinate them till yo see the white root, chop them with water, ferment a bit and you'll get all the precious elements that cannabis itself produces in the very early stages to root...It is this simple. And organic. None of these is disrupting the bio world in soil.

To understand mycos we need to get when they're important.

Cannabis loves and thrives in a bacterial dominant soil at the beginning and than likes a fungi dominant soil later in flowering.
Best thing for roots is to make the best enviroment for them: Perfect drainage, lots of air, humidity and organic matter are best for life to take place. In a right enviroment all the biological cycles take place in harmony and plants' roots exchange their carbs (from the photosynteis in leaves) to anyone who can eat them.
First bacterias, (which reproduce faster, in matter of hours) develop and attract protozoa and nematodes which breed on them. These guys' excrections are the reward for our beloved plants: ammonium is easily absorbed and some is metabolyzied in nitrates which are food that plant requires most in the first place in veg stage.
Mycos (when first watered they need to be in contact with roots, if not they die, as they cannot move; MOST of them don't germinate- so their freshness and source are important- and soil cannot be toxified by chemicals) sprout slowly and infects and their action becomes ready in a few weeks. Most of fungi do this. They eat carbs and starches that bacterias cannot eat. They make connections with them and exchange foods. They're as well eaten up by nematodes and protozoa, as well as larger worms and arthopods.
They are slow to grow, but they're best ability is to absorb the difficult phosphorous and digest other molecules, that bacterias cannot eat... So their usfulness is later on in flowering, when plants' needs of P are more pronounced.
Then bacterias so are less fed, mycos take advance as they can give back in exchange direclty to the roots the precious P. They grow out and look for all the P and water they can get, increasing microscopically the size of the roots.

The advantages of mycos going in an healthy soil and enviroment are apparent later. In an healthier, robust, pest free plant and developing all natural flavours end effect a seasoned smoker look for when he uses his medicine.
And less money in grwoshop stuff and less pollution at the end.

Don't wont to be a teacher or something, sorry if my tones seem a bit professional. But I already asked myself all this for a long time, and I really like to know how things work in details....
If you like this direction take a look at Teaming with microbes by jeff lowenfels. A must.
Sorry not to know your products, so cannot advice anything.
If you get the concepts under that, apply them to your situation, don't get stuck on names or fooled by sellers and labels. Most of things are matter of pennies bought in the right place.
My 2 or 3 eurocents
Dr.P

 

[Biatchzxz]

Super great information. Ive read both this articles you mentioned and like you said. It really does get to the bottom of what goes on and I've learned and put them to use. I would recommend for any one who wants to know more about it. To give it a read +rep for you dude.

 

[petemoss]

"Lonewolf pointed out some real facts on mycos to take in account.
One of them is that any salt above very, very low concentrations is going to disrupt the enviroment and kill them all together with most of bacterias. Any chemical fertilizer is going to do this. This is good for fertilizer company. Because after destroying soil biology you'll become dependant from those salts to keep your plants going..."

This is what I was afraid of. What I gather from Dr. P and Lonewolf's explanations is that mycos are best used with an organic soil grow. In a hydro grow, the chemical salts will basically kill off the mycos and beneficial bacteria that I paid for. Boo hoo, once again I've been scammed by those additive sellers!