My OBBT Bucket Build

[ColoMediCann]

Hey rrog,

Based on what I´ve read in this thread and some other sites I think you are correct that this is a zinc deficiency. It could be caused by a lockup from excess phosporus in the ferts, excess potassium in the coco, or pH of the coco.

If I was in your exact situation I would:

1) Foliar feed with a very diluted mix of Fat Flower and kelp plus a drop or two of the wetting agent at pH 6.2 to 7. Make sure to mix it diluted. After a couple of hours foliar feed again with just fresh water.

2) Mix up a half-strength or so solution with the Fat Flower and the kelp and pH correct to 5.8 or so. Make sure you saturate the root zone with this.

Since this is to be an 'organic' grow I would only do this in case of a situation like this that is likely to take some time to straighten out with organics. The Fat Flower would give me some time to figure out the solution to the imbalance with organics, and it is such a small quantity and only once I would expect no harm to the microherd and no effect on the quality of the herb.

Hope this is useful.
Good luck!

 

[ColoMediCann]

Zinc (Zn) Micro Nutrient and an Immobile element.

Zinc plays a lot of roles in the plants, first off zinc aids in the plants size and maturity as well as production of leaves, stalks, stems and branches. Zinc is an essential component in many enzymes as well as growth hormone auxin .Low auxin levels can be the cause of stunting of the plants leaves and the shoots. Zinc is also important in the formation and activity of chlorophyll. Plants that have a good level of Zinc, can handle long droughts. So that’s why Zinc plants an important role how it absorbs moisture.

Zinc deficiencies on some plants will have the Spotting and bleached spots (chlorosis) between the veins first appears on the older leaves first, and then goes on to the immature leaves. It will then start to slowly affect tips of growing points of the plants. When the zinc deficiency happens so suddenly, the spotting can appear to be the same symptoms to that of an iron and manganese, without the seeing the little leaf symptom.

Zinc is not mobile in plants so the symptoms will occur mainly in the newer growths. Having a plant that is deficiency in Zinc can cause small crops, short shoots and have a cluster of small distorted leaves near the tips. Between the veins (Interveinal) yellowing is often combined with overall paleness. Pale or grayish, yellowing between the veins; rosetted weak is the signs of a Zinc deficiency.

With a low level of zinc in your plants, your yields will be dramatically reduced. Interveinal chlorosis is present in the small, narrow distorted leaves at the ends of really shortened shoots and the shortening between internodes. Leaf margins are often distorted or wrinkled. These nutrients will get locked out due to high pH: Zinc, Iron, and Manganese. These deficiencies will often occur together. Parts affected by a zinc deficiency are young leaves and petioles.

Having an excess of Zinc is very rare, but when it does happen it can cause wilting and in worse cases death.

Problems with Zinc being locked out by PH troubles
High ph, Low organic matter, High Phosphorus levels in the soil, and or lack of nitrogen.

Soil

Zinc gets locked out of soil growing at ph levels of 4.5-4.7, 7.5-9.5

Zinc absorbed best in soil at a ph level of 5.0-7.0 (Wouldn’t recommend having a soil ph of over 7.0 in soil)
Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Zinc Deficiency.

Hydro and Soil less Mediums

Zinc gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.7-8.5
Zinc is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 4.0-5.5 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0.
Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Zinc Deficiency.

Solution to fixing a Zinc deficiency
Any Chemical/Organic nutrients that have potassium in them will fix a Zinc deficiency. (Only mixing at ½ strength when using chemical nutrients or it will cause nutrient burn!)

And any of the following nutrients will fix a zinc deficiency: Zinc sulfate, zinc chelated, or zinc oxides are adequate fertilizer sources for zinc. Or you can bury galvanized nails in the soil. (Make sure you take off the sharp point at the end to prevent roots from being damaged) Garden Manure, which is slow acting. Greensands, Cottonseed Meal are both medium/slow absorption as well.

Now if you added to much chemical nutrients and or organics,( which is hard to burn your plants when using organics) You need to Flush the soil with plain water. You need to use 2 times as much water as the size of the pot, for example: If you have a 5 gallon pot and need to flush it, you need to use 10 gallons of water to rinse out the soil good enough to get rid of excessive nutrients.


http://www.michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/node/2281

 

[rrog]

oops... double post. I'll take this opportunity to tell ColoMC how cool he (she) is again!

 

[rrog]

ColoMC, you are really being so kind to help me. I hate to see my otherwise perfect little ladies yellow.

I'm wondering if I have too much K or not enough. If the coco fibers have soaked up K, I may have a deficiency. And I presume the flowers need K especially.

On the other hand my suspected Zinc lockout is triggered by high K, among other things. And I've been adding high K amendments.

Given that I flushed the main coco source with boiling water initially, I figured most salts were gone.

I'm running out the door but will be back to digest your excellent postings!

 

[ColoMediCann]

Hi rrog,

I´m glad to try to help. My thinking on the plan of action:

1: Since zinc is immobile foliar feeding is the common way to solve a deficiency. From a NZ walnut grower´s blog: "Zinc applied to the leaves is usually very effective as it gets around any problems of it being locked up in the soil in an unavailable form."

I couldn´t find a lot of info on Fat Flowers but I bet it has some sort of chelated zinc that is usable by the plant and a light foliar feed would make it instantly available. A fresh water rinse afterward would clean up unused fertilizer solution. The foliar feed won´t be an option much longer with bud set so I´d do this right away.

2: I mentioned in one of my first posts I also suspect the pH is off, and with your water being hard I´m thinking the pH is high in the bucket. By correcting the pH to 5.8 and drenching the roots with a light solution you would be making the nutrients available for uptake through the roots.

I am not certain about how the amendments already in the coco would effect the nutrient availability. My guess is that since the nutrients in the Fat Flower should be balanced you would have a window of availability as the nutrient was applied. Since zinc is a micro nutrient you shouldn´t need a lot and one or two drenches should work.


If this works it could be that pH in OBBT is a bigger deal than we think. Maybe it leans more towards a 'soilless' hydro medium than a traditional organic soil grow. I´ve always done my hydro at 5.8 with a slight drift up to about 6.2 and never had nutrient deficiencies (well, nothing that a little epsom salt didn´t fix.)

Keep up the good work, you´ll get this sorted out in no time

Mr. CMC

 

[rrog]

Calibrated my pH meter and have a pH of 7.6.

Used a mickey mouse soil test kit and found Medium to high levels of P, and low K. These soil test kits may not be so totally useless, I guess.

So my pal ColoMC, same prescription as you outlined before?

 

[ColoMediCann]

same prescription as you outlined before?

Hi rrog,

If it was me I´d do the foliar feeding and root drench for sure. I´ve read so much stuff about coco, some conflicting, that I really don´t know what to do. That´s why I´m reverting to a deficiency-in-hydro panic scenario: flush, mix fresh nutes, foliar feed.

I´d also maybe lower the pH in the coco, too. On a nutrient availability chart the zinc is still available at 7.6 but I just intuit that the sweet spot is <7.

Please don´t think I´m talking like I know what`s up. I´m just putting in my ideas hoping to help, and if not, somebody straightening out my line of thinking. I'm definitely anxious to see the OBBT pushing out premium nugs.

Thanks for letting me write my short books in your thread

 

[rrog]

Hey ColoMC,

This may be working. Tried the prescription 2 days ago. Seems like some green returning to those leaves.

The water in the "reservoir" was over 8 (!) today, so I drained and added CalMag+ and RO water, with a touch of Bloom Burst and Seaweed. Also a bit of LactoB. pH to 5.3.

Used as a foliar spray with coco-wet, and the rest to re-soak the medium.

Will report back. This should be safe, as the solutions are dilute, 1/2 strength.

Thanks again!

RipVW, are you following the DrunkenM LadyL medium formulations? I lose track of all the OBBT users.

 

[xmobotx]

These soil test kits may not be so totally useless, I guess

knowing some rough info is better than guessing?

I´ve read so much stuff about coco, some conflicting, that I really don´t know what to do

I'm new to coco and running into this same issue

The water in the "reservoir" was over 8 (!) today, so I drained and added CalMag+ and RO water, with a touch of Bloom Burst and Seaweed. Also a bit of LactoB. pH to 5.3

this was the 1st thing to derail my 1st imaginary grow - watering w/ well water and the plants started to yellow - had no idea till i checked the PH (both medium and then water) that the well water had jacked the PH way up - how do you figure that stuff (in organics!) w/o a meter?

IOW - PH matters (duh) /rant

Anyway, I'm following this cause I have my OBBT going w/ corn in coco

I had the K/cal/mag issue but was able to balance it out watching symptoms in the corn - till i started seeing signs of over fert

(1st I added cal as eggshell and gypsum till I saw mag def then a little shot of epsom)

the beauty of this system is the awesome control you have over your soil and water

I emptied the bottom, water twice (just running through) and next feeding will be the balance I arrived at comping for the K/cal/mag issue - I'm thinking this may be the final feeding since the corns are a test crop

1 issue was that the "flush" moistened the medium excessively and it's takin a while to dry enough to feed - would have probably been death w/o the bubbler in the bottom?

 

[RipVanWeed]

Rrog,

I haven't seen anything of ladyL for awhile.

I chopped 2 of the large OBBT's (Swiss Bliss) and 5 smallun's (2x OG and 3x Purple Kush). They had flowered for 45 days, I had to take early due to a little mold. I bought the Kush's at an LA dispensery and failed to quarintine. I controlled the PM with sprays of neem and SM90, but their too far along for anymore sprays. The Swiss Bliss is the only of my strains that's sensitive to PM I guess because the others look PMfree.

During the construction



and start up of the new room, I messed up



with the lights off ventilation. Fixed that, then I increased temps and air movement in the flower area to try and protect the rest.

Just broke down the first of the 5gal OBBT. These buckets ran 2 crops back to back. I would not reccommend doubling up like that. I took some pic's



of the roots when I pulled the plant out. Battery went dead but I'll post them here shortly.

See ya, gotta go



Peace Out,

 

[rrog]

cool deal RipVW. Sory about the mold. I should have fans running all night then?

Are you running the LadyL formula for amendments? or using a pre-fab organic liquid?

 

[RipVanWeed]

I have my own worm bin, about every 3rd watering I make a Tea with fresh earthworm castings, Kelp extract/meal, alfalfa, and molasses. Bubble for a day or two, dilute it, then add to OBBT's or water it in on the little ones. After clones have roots and are in a cup, I'll wait a week and then give some tea.

What I'm working on now is finding a suitable Ph down that's organic. Seems my water always is high, I mix 50/50 ro with dechlorinated city water. Even the ro I buy has a high Ph? Last night I used Apple Cider Vinegar, took about 1/4 to 1/2 cup to 5 gal. I tried lemon juice from a fresh lemon, wasn't swinging Ph much after 1/2 of the lemon was squeezed.

I suffered from various def/lockout issues in the crop finishing now. I belive the microherd was compromised by the back to back situation, and the dead/dying roots of the previous plant. This was aggrevated by my trusting that the power of the OBBT would handle all Ph issues, I wasn't even checking at all. Bad on me. The 1st run with OBBT's ran so smooth and produced so well, that I relaxed too much.

From now on, I'll be Phing everything that's added. These are my babies, relying on me to supply everything. The train of thought is, don't make the OBBT use time or energy to buffer/adjust my input. I'll Ph everything to 6 up 6.5.

Reading runoff Ph will be done more as well.

I tried and failed to upload some interesting pic's yesterday, I'll try again now. Maybe I'm trying too many at once.

I started a fresh set of OBBT's, 8 x 5gal. buckets. They're in the veg cab for 3 days now with the new 400w mh. There's 4 Bubba Kush, 2 Jack Herer, and 2 Swiss Bliss. Vegging rapidly and will be ready for flower shortly.

The buckets from the 7 plants chopped 2 days ago, were washed and rinsed yesterday. Today I'm gonna refit the buckets that have 2 runs on them, as some of the uniseals seem sketchy. The sight tubes have some algae in them so those will be replaced. I have enough medium mixed and stored ina trashcan to get these incubating, then I'll hafta make up another 35 gal. of the "OBBT Blend".

No visable sign of PM, gotta try uploading.

see ya,

 

[RipVanWeed]

Hey Rrog,

The pic's were there this morn.

Root structure of an OBBT



3 Purple Kush Lollipops, superslow veggers



PK closeups



Swiss Bliss Buds, very dense, with a catpiss tang



2 OG's, I wish I had not lollipopped these



With the cool rainy weather here, these will dry slooowly, I'll post up yeilds when ready.

I think I'll be starting up my own thread shortly...watch my sig.

Much Respect,

 

[rrog]

Nice nugs! Thanks for taking the time to post those.

I neglected to measure pH as well. DrunkenM had described the pH as so stable you couldn't change it if you wanted. This may have to do with the water source. I was using a fair amount of well water. Could be a lime issue in the water. Have since starting measuring and using RO balanced with CalMag+

Seems to be working, but MAN! my pH was over 8 in the water layer...

 

[rrog]

Worried about mold. This is some super-dense growth here. Not sure if I should start snipping. The area under the scrog is relatively clear of anything.

 

[ColoMediCann]

Looks like a happy plant

Hey Rip, in the first photo of the root ball how long did you veg and flower that plant? Thanks.

 

[RipVanWeed]

Hey ColoMediCann,

Sorry, I can't say exactly on the veg time. I do know that it flowered for 45 days. I cut clones off an outdoor Swiss Bliss in June, they lingered under T-12's for awhile. I believe they revived and vegged for about 5 weeks in the OBBT with 1kw HPS.

As I gain experience I see that the timing of the plants on deck can be very difficult. Now that I have a veg cabinet with 400w MH I can have more robust plants all vegged out before moving into the flower area.

I was impressed with that root system, it was quite dense and full. Strong enough to hang together while lifted it out of the bucket.

I washed the dirt out of the roots, I'll take a picture of it when the rain stops.

I used 6" airstones in the bottom, so far both that I cleaned out had broken. Seein' as how I'm refitting these Buckets before firing back up, I picked up a bunch of smaller, round/spherical stones at the 99c store. 3 to a pack, only 33c each. I'll put 2 or 3 in the bottom of each.

Much Respect,

 

[h.h.]

I bought the small round/spherical stones at Walmart. I found they restrict the air. Perhaps "t"ing off with more than one per line.
Yeah, the roots look good. I do like the bud porn, but I'm a root man myself. I wonder if an "o" ring about half way up on the inside would guide the roots, as well as the air, back into the center of the bucket?

 

[rrog]

Today:

Last week:

Not much growth except for some on the right from the Purple Diesel.

The lockout has slowed growth substantially.

I shouldn't thin these at all? It is so freaking dense with leaves I'm concerned about mold. I have 2 fans running 24/7

 

[RipVanWeed]

Yeah hh,

I plan on teeing off and using 3 stones per 5gal. bucket. Gotta be better than blowing a single stream of big bubbles. In my small "Fence Post" OBBT's I just use one of the small spherical stones.

rrog, your flowers look like they're swelling up nicely. How many days of 12/12 so far, how long to go?

Grow On,