MotherLode Gardens 2017

[MedResearcher]

Ahh, nice. I should have read a little more carefully.

I ran a bit low on K last year as well. Those huge sativa hybrids really consume it. Going to try to use a lot more soluble seaweed this year. Soluble seaweed, guano, and compost tea^^

Three acres should be fun with some heavy equipment to help. Nice to have enough space to be able to do some testing.

I think I got a little to caught up in the soil analysis last year. Where I thought I had enough of this and that like K, so I didn't regularly add more. Started with enough, but ended low.

Anyways, gl to everyone on a great season.

Mr^^

 

[HazyBulldog]

The problem is that you're not qualified to give anyone advice.

So slown agrees. How about his qualifications? Keep giving that bad advice though, you qualified piece of shit.

This is fun though, keep telling me how stupid I am, then have a 30 year agronomist tell you your approach is wrong, and mine might be right. I could do this all day, you arrogant punks. So many years of this nonsense, people are starting to see through your bullshit. The pm's I get are too funny about you clowns.

What are we selling? K sulfate and micro sulfates? We aren't making a dime off shcrews for the record.

I hate to tell you your biz, but you actually have to bring others yields up to profit from it........... Consulting 101

 

[orechron]

So slown agrees. How about his qualifications? Keep giving that bad advice though, you qualified piece of shit.

This is fun though, keep telling me how stupid I am, then have a 30 year agronomist tell you your approach is wrong, and mine might be right. I could do this all day, you arrogant punks. So many years of this nonsense, people are starting to see through your bullshit. The pm's I get are too funny about you clowns.

I hate to tell you your biz, but you actually have to bring others yields up to profit from it........... Consulting 101

I thought that you were done posting here?

Your use of the word "might" in that sentence indicates that you're not very confident in what you're what you're writing. If you're going to blast me like this, don't try and leave the back door open.

I'm not trying to discredit Slow. He has way more general experience that pretty much all of us. The reason I disagree with him is because I know the numbers I recommend will grow healthy plants. I know because I've done it myself or others I share data with have. I would not challenge Mike to a lime or avocado growing contest, but I am experienced with both large cannabis plants in the field and indoor operation.

To elaborate on the cation numbers debate, if anyone is interested they can read this thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=335672

In it you will find that both Logan and Spectrum have faults. The big one being that they have only recently started weighing samples. Spectrum, however uses a fudge factor for calcium. I've sent replicate samples more than five times to logan and spectrum and Spectrum's Mg and K numbers are always significantly higher than Logan's as a result. I used to think Logan was under reporting Ca, but I'm not sure thats the case anymore.

Yes I'm sure you get tons of pm's rolling in about how much of an asshole I am. I have a feeling that the only pm's that result from our discourse are the incoherent, threatening messages that you've been sending me.

 

[jidoka]

Plus people are not factoring in the weight of their mix either. Peat itself weighs about 10% of what field soil weighs. These peat mixes are maybe 20% the weight of field soil.

So if you have a report that says 800 lbs per acre Mg you actually have only 1/5 of that...160 lbs per acre. The rule of thumb for SLAN is you need 250 lbs Mg to grow a crop

So what may look high when reported at 800 may not even be enough to grow the crop.

The advantage we have is we have been growing in this lightweight shit for a minute and have been able to observe this problem with our own eyes.

Not disrespecting SN at all. Just saying this may not come up in his grows.

 

[slownickel]

Plus people are not factoring in the weight of their mix either. Peat itself weighs about 10% of what field soil weighs. These peat mixes are maybe 20% the weight of field soil.

So if you have a report that says 800 lbs per acre Mg you actually have only 1/5 of that...160 lbs per acre. The rule of thumb for SLAN is you need 250 lbs Mg to grow a crop

So what may look high when reported at 800 may not even be enough to grow the crop.

The advantage we have is we have been growing in this lightweight shit for a minute and have been able to observe this problem with our own eyes.

Not disrespecting SN at all. Just saying this may not come up in his grows.

If there is indeed a problem with weights, the problem is proportional.

That is where the eye of the growers comes into play.

This means high Mg is still high Mg against all the other elements.

In this case, what are the factors to weigh in for him?

Drainage. If he has a problem with not getting enough air down deep, that is one issue. Meaning too much Mg, are we in agreement on that?

I like to get growers used to smelling the soil at different depths. When you get deep enough to loose that earthy smell, that is where your ran out of air. Realize that roots need more air that the leaves.

Orch is right, high Mg is not necessarily impossible to deal with. But that is only if there is enough air space. Having two times more Mg in ppms that K, is a huge K blocker. "Ideal" haha in ppms K=Mg=S=P

Recipes or even calculations are much more involved that just cranking numbers. One needs to understand what the grower is seeing, this means question and answers.

As for the "correct" amount of nutrients in the soil or medium. That is where your conductivity meter comes in. I like my spike type probe. She don't lie.

 

[jidoka]

I agree with you on the proportions. I totally agree with you on the EC probe...that combined with sap meter readings is what I use to tell when it is time and what to fertilize.

Take a look at that first year. Started out with really high looking K. Next yr it was low. The plant obviously did remove what appears to be a whole lot of K, except for the weight factor. The same will happen with Mg this yr.

The mound part is 33% drainage material. I could be wrong but I don't see how that could tighten up. I have never seen it.

The soil underneath that could definitely be tight. It should have had the fuck gypsumed out of it before the mounds were built. But it didn't...so here we are.

If you gypsum the mound and manage to push Mg out where is it going...straight into that already tight subsoil. Which will then get tighter cause the Ca will replace the Mg on the cec sites...edit, replace the Mg in the mound cec sites

imo...and its just my opinion...you probably now guarantee you will have to fert K and Mg. The one saving grace is the size of those mounds that will at least reduce thee problem.

At the same time you probably make the subsoil tighter so you get more water saturation at that transition.

What should happen is during the off season is the mounds get moved, the sub soil gets a shitload of gypsum, the mounds get rebuilt. Which would depend on how long Screws plans to stay.

Anyways that is my argument. Up to Screws what he wants to do. If he goes the SN method that would be a reasonable decision. I would get out of the way and wish him the best. Watch and learn is all I would do.

edit...and sorry I did not answer the question you asked. If the mound is too tight and not enough air then yup I agree with you, too much Mg

 

[packerfan79]

Damn you guys take your soil seriously.

 

[Dankwolf]

Damn you guys take your soil seriously.

Or obsessively. Good thing there no other factors to consider lol.

 

[Shcrews]

Or obsessively. Good thing there no other factors to consider lol.

soil is the easiest factor to deal with at this point in the season.

 

[Shcrews]

Drainage. If he has a problem with not getting enough air down deep, that is one issue. Meaning too much Mg, are we in agreement on that?

...

Orch is right, high Mg is not necessarily impossible to deal with. But that is only if there is enough air space. Having two times more Mg in ppms that K, is a huge K blocker. "Ideal" haha in ppms K=Mg=S=P

The mound part is 33% drainage material. I could be wrong but I don't see how that could tighten up. I have never seen it.

I dont think the mounds have drainage problems, like you said with 33% lava rock...

The soil underneath that could definitely be tight. It should have had the fuck gypsumed out of it before the mounds were built. But it didn't...so here we are.

I definitely fucked up by not tilling the ground before i made mounds like caterpillar said to do back in the day

If you gypsum the mound and manage to push Mg out where is it going...straight into that already tight subsoil. Which will then get tighter cause the Ca will replace the Mg on the cec sites...edit, replace the Mg in the mound cec sites

How bad would it be if the Mg is pushed into the subsoil? sounds like that would help balance the mounds, although i'm not sure how deep the roots penetrate..

imo...and its just my opinion...you probably now guarantee you will have to fert K and Mg. The one saving grace is the size of those mounds that will at least reduce thee problem.

Do you mean i would have to do that if i went SN's route?

At the same time you probably make the subsoil tighter so you get more water saturation at that transition.

how important is the subsoil?

What should happen is during the off season is the mounds get moved, the sub soil gets a shitload of gypsum, the mounds get rebuilt. Which would depend on how long Screws plans to stay.

That sounds brutal. can't get heavy equipment on the steep part of the hill so it would all be shovel work.

Anyways that is my argument. Up to Screws what he wants to do. If he goes the SN method that would be a reasonable decision. I would get out of the way and wish him the best. Watch and learn is all I would do

SN is suggesting to amend the mounds with gypsum to balance the Mg, correct? what about K? sounds like that is goin to be an issue

 

[Shcrews]

Shcrews, if this is getting counterproductive please let me know.

not at all.

I will say it would be worth the time to get more calcium and potassium worked into the native below the mounds

It would be hard to work the native below the mounds in time for this season. Might be able to do it in the off season next year like MJ said... will require a few guys with shovels and several days. Anything i can do besides physically moving the mounds, ammending the native , and then moving them back?

and maybe widen the diameter of amended top soil. The bigger the volume the bigger the plant and also more room for error.

When you say widen the diameter, do I flatten/widen the mounds? or should i amend the native soil around the perimeter of the mounds?

 

[Shcrews]

I never said don't apply K, he will need it early on until that Mg is lowered and to finish up, he should be applying K til the finish.

What's the best way to do that?

I think dude would be best served to spray on acetates and glycinate and just work on his soil structure maybe add some VanSil and some of his topsoil in.

i'm still tryin to wrap my head around this.

 

[Dankwolf]

soil is the easiest factor to deal with at this point in the season.

For sure i was just being a smart ass . ment no offense honestly i am in simaler situation but worse . my soil mix will not only be untested i wont have have time for labs .its got me tripping balls . wish i would saved some cash i planed shit out better . but live and learn .

 

[plantingplants]

How tall areyour mounds these days?

You mightas well make them aswide as possible with as much dirt as possible..connected even. Well now im just picturing a massive raised bed....

 

[orechron]

It would be hard to work the native below the mounds in time for this season. Might be able to do it in the off season next year like MJ said... will require a few guys with shovels and several days. Anything i can do besides physically moving the mounds, ammending the native , and then moving them back?

When you say widen the diameter, do I flatten/widen the mounds? or should i amend the native soil around the perimeter of the mounds?

What I meant about the diameter was, assuming you're willing to move the coots and work the native, is that if the mound is moved and it would normally cover a 8 foot diameter circle, then amend the native soil out to a 10-12ft diameter circle before you move the coots back to the center.

I know it would be hard work but you'd be doubling your soil volume. It would a good idea if your goal is to get back to double digits per plant.

If you don't move the mounds you can still till up a 2-4 foot strip around the circumference of the mound that the roots would eventually reach. Expand your drip line a little bit if you do.

 

[caterpillar710]

i'm still tryin to wrap my head around this.

I spell it out for you what's the problem

 

[MedResearcher]

Feeder roots are at the top of the soil. Once the roots get to deep they cull themselves, hence why people tend the top 12" of the soil traditionally.Why smart pots are only about 18" deep and not 48". Especially with drip irrigation, why grow in the subsoil where there is less oxygen?

Screws has like 5-6 yard mounds, to me that is already an insane amount of soil for a single plant.

Think if your trying to use the native soil, or create soil from the native clay that is great. If you truck in 5 yards per plant, not sure you need any extra native soil.

1 yard is a decent amount of soil for a single plant. See guys crushing it in smart pots. Mendo, Tom Hill, shit Cat just said he is only using 20 gallon pots now. Have seen some gardens last year using 45s and 60s and hitting good numbers. 5-6 yards is already way beyond diminishing returns. Could build 5x 30 plant gardens with 1 yard plants. Hit 3-5 # per plant and yield around 450-750#s with less larf and less maintenance.

Think Screw's garden and thread are really cool he has a good attitude and work ethic, does well with what he has. I always watch him and read it, every year. Permaculture and working native soil is very cool as well. Don't think Screws needs more soil per plant though.

If anything, make sure the mounds are not to deep. Pull them out wide and thin. So you can better control the irrigation in the optimum oxygen root zone. Imagine a kiddy pool or smart pot, but just wider and wider. Coach the roots out wide, and the canopy will follow. Want square feet of canopy not foot height of stalks. Farming flowers or hash, not hemp.

Couple years before Screws made the plunge from smarties to mounds, I did as well. First couple seasons my mounds were way to thick, looked a bit like his from last year. Like the top half of a ball, thick and round in the middle. Once I finally pulled mine out the difference was like night and day.Want them more like a saucer. Wide and thin, flat on top with a taper only near the edge.

Bare with my math... yard is 27 ft^3, 6 yards is 162 ft^3. At 18" deep you are talking about 108 ft^2. So apx 10.4'x10.4' square mound, or if your into circles.. apx 12' circle.

Hard to tell in the pictures, maybe they are around that size Screws. Bust out a tape measure, then if you have to, hate to say it.. bust out a rake and put those muscles to work. Its rough on a hillside, if you don't terrace into the ground, you end up using Coots mix as fill dirt to level the mound off. You may have 5-6 yards, but if 4 of them are fill dirt and subsoil.... a lot of waste.

Think the transition from organic farmer to big AG is horrible and led by greed. Its a slippery slope getting to into chemistry, I imagine that is why most big AG is based on chemicals. Friends with a retired organic farmer, she would get her soil tested once every couple years. Her product was AAA+, consistent, organic, and clean. So good that she was able to retire with a good conscience and lots of friends and positive energy. She feels very strongly about her worms and does a lot of hard work amending a full spectrum of good organic inputs on a regular basis, along with compost. Mulched and amended in the fall, to keep the worms fed over the winter. Then amended again in the spring and all summer long. Can't remember the quote exactly but.. "The best fertilizer is foot steps in your garden."


Mr^^

 

[HazyBulldog]

I'm not trying to discredit Slow.

Right. However your dumb ass will tell me I am wrong, yet Slow is right, about the same dam thing. You sir, are a biased, certified piece of shit. Your true colors are showing..... Shit brown.

I spell it out for you what's the problem

 

[orechron]

Feeder roots are at the top of the soil. Once the roots get to deep they cull themselves, hence why people tend the top 12" of the soil traditionally.Why smart pots are only about 18" deep and not 48". Especially with drip irrigation, why grow in the subsoil where there is less oxygen?

Coot's is light enough where there will be root activity below. You see people with roots going through the smart pots often. If you improve calcium in the subsoil it will open it up for business.

Screws has like 5-6 yard mounds, to me that is already an insane amount of soil for a single plant.

Think if your trying to use the native soil, or create soil from the native clay that is great. If you truck in 5 yards per plant, not sure you need any extra native soil.

1 yard is a decent amount of soil for a single plant. See guys crushing it in smart pots. Mendo, Tom Hill, shit Cat just said he is only using 20 gallon pots now. Have seen some gardens last year using 45s and 60s and hitting good numbers. 5-6 yards is already way beyond diminishing returns. Could build 5x 30 plant gardens with 1 yard plants. Hit 3-5 # per plant and yield around 450-750#s with less larf and less maintenance.

I don't know if Hill fertigates anything but I'd guess Mendo does and I know Cat does. Shcrews is going with the water only route. I would be running 5 yards if that were the case.

Think Screw's garden and thread are really cool he has a good attitude and work ethic, does well with what he has. I always watch him and read it, every year. Permaculture and working native soil is very cool as well. Don't think Screws needs more soil per plant though.

If anything, make sure the mounds are not to deep. Pull them out wide and thin. So you can better control the irrigation in the optimum oxygen root zone. Imagine a kiddy pool or smart pot, but just wider and wider. Coach the roots out wide, and the canopy will follow. Want square feet of canopy not foot height of stalks. Farming flowers or hash, not hemp.

I like your approach. I think that if he were to go that route, it would be worth the time to amend the native.

Couple years before Screws made the plunge from smarties to mounds, I did as well. First couple seasons my mounds were way to thick, looked a bit like his from last year. Like the top half of a ball, thick and round in the middle. Once I finally pulled mine out the difference was like night and day.Want them more like a saucer. Wide and thin, flat on top with a taper only near the edge.

Bare with my math... yard is 27 ft^3, 6 yards is 162 ft^3. At 18" deep you are talking about 108 ft^2. So apx 10.4'x10.4' square mound, or if your into circles.. apx 12' circle.

Hard to tell in the pictures, maybe they are around that size Screws. Bust out a tape measure, then if you have to, hate to say it.. bust out a rake and put those muscles to work. Its rough on a hillside, if you don't terrace into the ground, you end up using Coots mix as fill dirt to level the mound off. You may have 5-6 yards, but if 4 of them are fill dirt and subsoil.... a lot of waste.

Think the transition from organic farmer to big AG is horrible and led by greed. Its a slippery slope getting to into chemistry, I imagine that is why most big AG is based on chemicals. Friends with a retired organic farmer, she would get her soil tested once every couple years. Her product was AAA+, consistent, organic, and clean. So good that she was able to retire with a good conscience and lots of friends and positive energy. She feels very strongly about her worms and does a lot of hard work amending a full spectrum of good organic inputs on a regular basis, along with compost. Mulched and amended in the fall, to keep the worms fed over the winter. Then amended again in the spring and all summer long. Can't remember the quote exactly but.. "The best fertilizer is foot steps in your garden."

Mr^^

^^^ This is definitely less work than moving the coots or combining the coots with the native. Consider expanding the mounds.

Right. However your dumb ass will tell me I am wrong, yet Slow is right, about the same dam thing. You sir, are a biased, certified piece of shit. Your true colors are showing..... Shit brown.

Calm yourself. All I did was disagree with Slow. Coot's doesn't behave like clay or topsoil. Shcrews doesn't have a drainage issue...

I might be the only person here who has seen his farm in Peru. I have more reasons to respect his ability because of that. Quit trying to stir shit or twist what I am saying to fit your opinion of me.

 

[HazyBulldog]

So screws, I know this is a big change, and a ton of work and possibly money.

However, get an operator out there, mix everything up, test, ammend, rock and roll. That is what I do most years. However I have over 200 yards these days....... Lots of work turning everything, mixing. However, the cost of brand new soil is also expensive.

Otherwise, Medresearcher had some great advice.