Moldy Horror Show in the Attic. Help! HVAC experts, anybody

[schwilly]

So, I went back to finish my degree after all these years, finally had the money and time. I'm renting what you could call a sort of shotgun house. Tiny place, single story, no basement, and a small attic.

Due to these circumstances I'm just running a thousand watts in an insulated 4x4 box I built in a small bedroom while I'm here. Yesterday for the first time in about two months I pulled down the ladder door to get some supplies out of the attic. It was horrific. White and greenish turquoise mold everywhere. Growing on plywood and studs alike.

Now, I do not exhaust into the attic, which is probably what you immediately thought. This is baffling so I'll explain it but you might have to read a bit.

When I moved in december 2010 I immediately got the box up and running. I have a 392 cfm fan pulling air through a can 50 carbon filter inside the box, pushing it through a cooled hood, and then out of the box and through ducting to dump the hot air in the living area. This is plenty of flow to keep things cool when the weather is 65f or below.

I just did a single cycle last winter and only needed to run AC in the bedroom for the last few weeks. Had no issues with mold or anything.

This winter, it finally cools down and I get things going. I live in a humid part of the US, and winter never really arrived. Long story short humidity was higher than I liked but I have no dehuey here. So I decide to pull cold air through ducting from the small attic into the box with another fan which is hooked up to a temp controller set to come on when it gets above 79 in the box. Things work well and humidity in the box comes down.

The other advantage of this is I can keep it nice and toasty in my tiny place with just the light while the box stays cool, with no ac. But even so, it's only about 10 degrees warmer than last year in my living area.

The attic has both soffit and peak ridge vents so there is no way I'm causing hot air to somehow be pulled into the attic from the living area via vacuum from my cold air intake.

The attic is just damp as hell. Every roofing nail sticking down has condensation on it. Like I said this winter is mild and it's more humid than last year but I'm still at a loss to explain why it would be that damp. It is reasonably well insulated between the attic and living space but no insulation on the roof.

I have a 10 week strain at 7 weeks in the box. All incoming air to the box goes through a furnace filter. Enough to stop dust and bugs but I imagine mold spores pass right through. So, I am basically spraying mass amounts of spores from the attic onto my plants. I imagine I should know very soon if this mold likes buds. :sadworryface:

The other more pressing issue. For the past month or two I have not felt right. Tired as hell, feeling depressed, sleeping way too much, headaches, etc. I even took a break from herb just to change things up in an attempt to straighten myself out. It's been almost two weeks. If anything life is worse, as you might imagine. :wink: So I'm scared that I've essentially been pumping poisoned air into my place.

Of course I'm no longer dumping attic air into my place, hope I start to feel better soon. I am just so confused as to what could be causing the dampness up there. It's only about 75 during the day in my place with the light on, maybe 60 at night. I just don't see how pulling cold dry outside air into the attic via vacuum would cause dampness like that.

Any responses greatly appreciated, thanks for reading all that.

 

[HighPlainsToker]

The attic has both soffit and peak ridge vents so there is no way I'm causing hot air to somehow be pulled into the attic from the living area via vacuum from my cold air intake.

First think I'd do is set aside any assumptions you have about what you think you know, because you're obviously missing something in a big way.

HVAC guys make a decent living dealing with airflow because it can get kinda complicated, ya know?

 

[schwilly]

Yea, you're right man.

I guess I should have said it seems unlikely that I would be pulling any kind of real vacuum up there with what is likely around 10 square feet of open vent to the outside.

edit: I guess I should also add that the fan pulling the cold air only runs 200 cfm when it's on.

 

[schwilly]

There are times when the temp in my living area hits around 80. I'm wondering if maybe the temperature differential is just too much for the attic ventilation to handle when it's cold out. I do enjoy having the option to wear nothing but underwear in my place but I guess I'll try to cool it down in here and see if it helps.

The pull down door to the attic has a good seal but I guess I'll try to make it completely airtight today.

I'm going to feel terrible if the inspector condemns this place when he checks it after I move out in spring.

 

[HighPlainsToker]

I don't know what kind of temps that blue/green mold requires to thrive, but it occurs to me that it must be warmer than a normal vented, unheated attic would be.

If you get one of those low-cost "Accu-Rite" digital clocks with the remote temperature sensor (Wal-Mart), you could put a remote in the attic and see how your temps track over time. They'll store minimum and maximum temps over a 24 hour period, with a reset at midnight, so you can see what kind of swing you're getting. That's how I keep track of temps in my cab, and dial in the heat and ventilation.

 

[Synthettek]

A Quick, immediate cheap aid is to buy a dehumidifier with a hose to drain so you don't have to empty it all the time.

And the mold you describe may very well be a Trichoderma mold with others as well. The mean green is the trich.

 

[schwilly]

A Quick, immediate cheap aid is to buy a dehumidifier with a hose to drain so you don't have to empty it all the time.

And the mold you describe may very well be a Trichoderma mold with others as well. The mean green is the trich.

Yea. I have a dehumidifier but it's in storage with a lot of my other stuff while I'm back at school. Too long of a drive and hassle to get it before I move. I never imagined I'd need it running only in the winter here as low humidity is usually the problem. This winter is fucked. I looked up trichoderma and luckily it doesn't sound too unhealthy for me or plants. Though there looks to be more than one variety up there.

thanks

I don't know what kind of temps that blue/green mold requires to thrive, but it occurs to me that it must be warmer than a normal vented, unheated attic would be.

If you get one of those low-cost "Accu-Rite" digital clocks with the remote temperature sensor (Wal-Mart), you could put a remote in the attic and see how your temps track over time. They'll store minimum and maximum temps over a 24 hour period, with a reset at midnight, so you can see what kind of swing you're getting. That's how I keep track of temps in my cab, and dial in the heat and ventilation.

You're right. I was surprised to see mold up there as I figured it would be pretty much outside temps.

I do have a bunch of temp/hygro sensors here, I just finally found the box and dug one out 20 minutes ago and threw it up there. I'll check it in an hour or so once everything up there equalizes from me opening the door and see what it tells me. The ones I get are all manual reset.

thanks

 

[trichrider]

stale air bro. some air circulation up there would do wonders.

i'm certain that mold can handle cooler temps than you would imagine.
i find mold growing in cool stagnent air, like the inside of parked covered cars, boats...

an ozone generator up there would destroy the mold...good luck!

 

[schwilly]

well, it's 40 degrees up there, compared to 34 outside. so i don't think the issue us warm air from my living space making it up there.

but, 75% humidity. 45% humidity in my place.

stale air bro. some air circulation up there would do wonders.

i'm certain that mold can handle cooler temps than you would imagine.
i find mold growing in cool stagnent air, like the inside of parked covered cars, boats...

an ozone generator up there would destroy the mold...good luck!

makes sense.

it's a really small space, at the peak of the roof it's only 5 feet tall and then slanting down. last year it was mostly empty up there. this year it is stacked with shit. there is well over a thousand pounds of coco, soil, ewc, and dry amendments up there. i don't know if all that moist organic material is contributing or not.

i guess i just have to attribute it to lack air flow and the ridiculously humid winter we're having.

and me feeling like crap recently could also come down to stress from family bs and hitting the bottle too often

grosses me out thinking of the giant petri dish above me though.

thanks

 

[Midnight]

This would be a good place to start. http://inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/Attic_Mold_Causes.htm

 

[Hydro-Soil]

The other more pressing issue. For the past month or two I have not felt right. Tired as hell, feeling depressed, sleeping way too much, headaches, etc. I even took a break from herb just to change things up in an attempt to straighten myself out. It's been almost two weeks. If anything life is worse, as you might imagine. :wink: So I'm scared that I've essentially been pumping poisoned air into my place.

Got a wierd situation for sure... wish I had an idea right off the bat.

The health issues are DEFINITELY mold related... you've been inhaling spores for a while now and many varieties are BAD. I'm glad you didn't say "black" mold is up there... that one is a killer. Had me bedridden with "pneumonia-like" symptoms for 17 weeks straight. Ouch.

Been having any memory problems lately? Forgetting to close cabinets, flush toilets, pay bills? That's a good sign you've got bad mold types up there somewhere. Most others cause repiratory issues, dizziness and eventually deeper issues from continued exposure.

Up your cannabis intake in an edible way.... not smoking. Your immune system can use the additional help.

Get a LOT of fresh air, steam clean any carpets and padded chairs/sofas you have, get as many of those spores out of the house as possible.... cleaning out the attic is impossible without the right gear and plan of attack.


Stay Safe!

 

[schwilly]

thanks midnight

good stuff there.

i got up on the roof and i'm beginning to think that maybe the last time the roof was reshingled it was done in a way that somewhat blocks the peak vent. maybe just not enough cross ventilation between there and the soffit vents.

who fucking knows. obviously having a professional look at it is the answer but that's not an option until spring.

well, i've got a respirator for when i need to go up there.

 

[schwilly]

Got a wierd situation for sure... wish I had an idea right off the bat.

The health issues are DEFINITELY mold related... you've been inhaling spores for a while now and many varieties are BAD. I'm glad you didn't say "black" mold is up there... that one is a killer. Had me bedridden with "pneumonia-like" symptoms for 17 weeks straight. Ouch.

Been having any memory problems lately? Forgetting to close cabinets, flush toilets, pay bills? That's a good sign you've got bad mold types up there somewhere. Most others cause repiratory issues, dizziness and eventually deeper issues from continued exposure.

Up your cannabis intake in an edible way.... not smoking. Your immune system can use the additional help.

Get a LOT of fresh air, steam clean any carpets and padded chairs/sofas you have, get as many of those spores out of the house as possible.... cleaning out the attic is impossible without the right gear and plan of attack.


Stay Safe!

Damn hydro, thanks but your post certainly won't help me sleep tonight. hah.

where was the mold that got you sick? in the attic?

as far as mental problems, it's hard to tell. like i said been stressed and drinking lately. that and my mental condition has been in constant flux for years now, can't really tell what's normal for me anymore. haven't been getting much sleep the past couple months, mostly just laying in bed exhausted. so some days i do feel "slow".

as far as respiratory i'm fine. i hit the weights and jog every other day. that is my biggest fix and the only thing that keeps me going. if i was sick in a way that i couldn't exercise i would be moving the fuck out of here.

every year or so conditions come together in a way that i quit the ganj for a while. it's just something i do. i wish i could slam some edibles right now but i am already two weeks into the fast and might as well stick it out for another month or so.

things should start to come together again once i'm back and burning.

that and i'm moving to a med state in the spring. life will be good i know it.

anyways thanks man

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

So I decide to pull cold air through ducting from the small attic into the box with another fan which is hooked up to a temp controller set to come on when it gets above 79 in the box. Things work well and humidity in the box comes down.
...................................................................................

well, it's 40 degrees up there, compared to 34 outside. so i don't think the issue us warm air from my living space making it up there.

but, 75% humidity. 45% humidity in my place.

When the temperature in your box is under 79 degrees F, the fan which pulls cold air down from the attic is turned off. With no fan running, warm moist air from your box is rising up the ducting into the attic. If the ducting enters the top of your box this buoyancy/back-flow effect will be worse. When this warm moist air enters the attic it is cooled down to 40 degrees F. Cold air can contain less water vapor than warm air. Cooling air actually increases its relative humidity. The moist air from your box is being cooled in the attic to below its dew point, thus the condensation.

Running the fan 24 hr/day should solve your problem. If you're afraid it will cool your box too much then you need to get an electric damper that closes the ducting when the fan is off.

The 34 degree outside air is cold enough that it has little capacity to hold water vapor. When you pull it inside and warm it up the ability to hold water vapor increases, so in actuality the relative humidity has dropped. This air now wants to absorb more water vapor, not dump it through condensation. The outside air is not your problem. It's the warm moist air from your grow box.

Consider spraying the moldy surfaces with Lysol. Unfortunately I don't know how you could do this in such a confined space without inhaling the stuff.

Good luck with this.

 

[skullznroses]

Hey Bud- Heres my two cents.

Condesnsation occurs when warm air with a certain amount of moisture in in cools to a point where the RH of the air reaches the point of saturation. Essentially the warm air is holding a certain amount of water or humidity, and when it cools to a certain temperature the capacity of the air to hold water is diminished(at lower temps, like an attic that has no roof insulation), as the air can hold less water that water forms condensation, clouds in in some cases rain. To me I see the following going on at your house. -> hot humid air froma grow room environment goes into the attic where it cools due to exposure to outdoor temps, and the resulting condensation is causing mold to go wild, because your attic is still warm enough for fungus to grow.

You need a dehumidifier or else the problem will continue until it gets warmer, but it will never go away until you get rid of the moisture source... your warm grow room air that is in your house.


Lots of people who grow in cold places have condensation on the windows. Most houses get very dry in the winter, and so even though the windows are very cold the air has little moisture to condensate. When a grow house has high humidity, then air that gets near the cold glass windows condensates in a very big way. I know the guy who lives a few houses down has a grow going on at his house... partially due to the Dobermans and partially due to the piles of pro-mix in the backyard, and partially due to his wet winter windows. Oh well, Im not telling.

 

[schwilly]

When the temperature in your box is under 79 degrees F, the fan which pulls cold air down from the attic is turned off. With no fan running, warm moist air from your box is rising up the ducting into the attic. If the ducting enters the top of your box this buoyancy/back-flow effect will be worse. When this warm moist air enters the attic it is cooled down to 40 degrees F. Cold air can contain less water vapor than warm air. Cooling air actually increases its relative humidity. The moist air from your box is being cooled in the attic to below its dew point, thus the condensation.

Running the fan 24 hr/day should solve your problem. If you're afraid it will cool your box too much then you need to get an electric damper that closes the ducting when the fan is off.

The 34 degree outside air is cold enough that it has little capacity to hold water vapor. When you pull it inside and warm it up the ability to hold water vapor increases, so in actuality the relative humidity has dropped. This air now wants to absorb more water vapor, not dump it through condensation. The outside air is not your problem. It's the warm moist air from your grow box.

Consider spraying the moldy surfaces with Lysol. Unfortunately I don't know how you could do this in such a confined space without inhaling the stuff.

Good luck with this.

thanks for the input, i can see why you would think that.

i guess i should have included that there is a spring loaded butterfly valve on the duct to prevent that. when the fan goes off it snaps shut.

it's not a cheap one either, it's pretty damn airtight.

Hey Bud- Heres my two cents.

Condesnsation occurs when warm air with a certain amount of moisture in in cools to a point where the RH of the air reaches the point of saturation. Essentially the warm air is holding a certain amount of water or humidity, and when it cools to a certain temperature the capacity of the air to hold water is diminished(at lower temps, like an attic that has no roof insulation), as the air can hold less water that water forms condensation, clouds in in some cases rain. To me I see the following going on at your house. -> hot humid air froma grow room environment goes into the attic where it cools due to exposure to outdoor temps, and the resulting condensation is causing mold to go wild, because your attic is still warm enough for fungus to grow.

You need a dehumidifier or else the problem will continue until it gets warmer, but it will never go away until you get rid of the moisture source... your warm grow room air that is in your house.


Lots of people who grow in cold places have condensation on the windows. Most houses get very dry in the winter, and so even though the windows are very cold the air has little moisture to condensate. When a grow house has high humidity, then air that gets near the cold glass windows condensates in a very big way. I know the guy who lives a few houses down has a grow going on at his house... partially due to the Dobermans and partially due to the piles of pro-mix in the backyard, and partially due to his wet winter windows. Oh well, Im not telling.

yea man. all the windows in my place are sealed with shrink plastic and then blinds and then taut fleece and then insulating curtains. i would be a nervous wreck if i had drippy windows advertising for me like some people do.

you're right, i need to bring the humidity down, even though 45% isn't that bad, and bring the temp in here down too. what i would really like to figure out is how so much of my living space air is making it into the attic.

thanks for the reply

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Well if you already have a damper to prevent backflow up the ducting into the attic, that does change the story. You say that it is an old house. My old house doesn't have taped drywall interiors. I once was using Bondo to repair a shower floor and had a fan running sucking the fumes up into the attic. Evidently the ceiling leaks like a sieve because the whole house filled with the fumes. If your ceiling is plywood. planks, or other older materials with no plaster coating, the moist warm air you're dumping into your house is rising up through the cracks to eventually condense its vapor load onto the cold surfaces within. That's my best guess at least.

I don't know if you could put down a functional vapor barrier by laying out visqueen. It would have to be underneath the insulation to work. It would probably need to be sealed somehow around the edges. You could pull air from the house and vent outside. That wouldn't lower your heating bill but it would stop the humidity problem and you wouldn't be pulling spores down from the attic anymore.

Good luck again.

 

[schwilly]

thanks rabbit

i think you're right, my ceiling just leaks like a sieve. there is no way to really vent outside in this place. electric heat, electric water heater, no washer/dryer, the only vent is the bathroom vent, and i'm not running ducting all the way through there. shotgun house like i said.

i rigged up a can fan to the bathroom vent running all day to suck hot air out. my place is low 60s now instead of near 80 but it needs to be to keep the box cool without the cold air dumping in it like before. sucks.

can't hook up the windowbanger ac in that room's window this time of year, might as well put up a sign. i think i might say fuck it, just cut a hole in the box and hang the ac out the side of it. cool the box and heat my place with it at the same time. my power bill would jump though.

i'm moving out in the spring. no way i'm doing major work to the attic with a barrier or anything. i'll bleach the hell out of all the mold in the attic before i go, should look ok.

on another note, might just be placebo effect but this is the first day in a while i woke up feeling not shitty, no headache.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

I finally googled "shotgun house". Yeah, that's gonna be one drafty dwelling alright. Maybe you could use your old set up if you put a vent fan in an attic vent. That would clear out the humid air. Unfortunately it would also cool it down a lot. But it might be better than what you have going now sucking the warm air out of your living space. Then again we're now back to the spore issue. A hepa filter on the box air intake duct?

 

[schwilly]

Yea I know shotgun house isn't a common term in all parts of the country but it's the only way to really describe it. I figured people would google it if they were curious.

I don't think I would be comfortable sucking any of that attic air ever again. Just too much mold, and I don't think I'll go through the trouble of doing any kind of hepa filtration.

I think I'll just deal with it as it is right now. The attic should stay dry-ish and the box cool, I just don't have the tropical climate to lounge in like before. Like I said moving out in the spring, this was just a temporary thing and i really only have the little grow going here because I wanted to experiment with a few things while I could afford to. Definitely accomplished that. There are 8 different soil/layer mixes going in there right now. Some winners, some losers. Can't wait for the flavor and scale tests.

When I get the time I might strap the little window ac unit i have here to the box. That little box already looks like it should have polio survivor inside it.