MKP PK Mixing

[f-e]

I did think K for a long time. It's why I came out of coco, to get control over it. I'm certainly entertaining the idea, but have been fixated on it in the past. It was just this last run where I actually offered some, to levels many bases have at bottle dose. For many years I have not used PK boosters, except where I lowered the feed to account for the N gain from calmag, then put the PK back. So not a boost. I do feel PK does brown hairs overnight, always has. Close friends agree it's half dose at most. I have thought it the K part, even when running so little the plants were unhappy. It's why I'm now looking at P. That and the levels in my runoff showing it's more elevated than other things.

My old feed, which did work, had just 50ppm Ca at full dose. So little Mg they didn't list how much, only it's presence. I ignored the light tops just after 12/12, but in the later weeks got a rash on the upper shades. That 50ppm was low though. Running 40% more feed than full bottle dose, the runoff EC was still hinting the coco had been stripped bare each day. Coming out really low, despite going in very high.

That upper rashing late on has had me using more Ca ever since. All the way through my problems. More seemed the right thing. Even when it was good I had early browning, but that alone isn't impacting anything else. Though it was mild. Only this last run did I drop P and Ca and saw them pick up in the final weeks. I think I'm close with these two. I really can't do less K though. I was formulating feeds without it at one point. Seeing 90ppm in my runoff days later. Which I think was all from the coco, having kept tabs on it. Though after that 2.5 weeks, everything gets rejected as they stop feeding.

I keep thinking bigger pots, but have already increased them 50%. They seem to like smaller ones.

Is there any reason why K would be an issue at that time? I thought demand would be increasing. Are you thinking accumulation. Any EC, its still the same timing. 23 days. No later than 26. It kinda says not the feed.


Edit:
I must say, always good to talk bud


Oh, you got another post in while I typed..

 

[f-e]

k=ca 1 week before transition through till they begin to stretch. Then lower ca to get a good stretch. After stretch begin raising k while keeping equal ca. The feed is more about ratios than moving individual elements. Use base feed and ca/mg in correct ratios only. Bring more N if they need it.

This is very interesting. However, If I use just 0.5ml of my mono calcium, as I'm going to try, that is just 44ppm. Nothing like my K. My old feed had 180K and 50Ca.
When you say half my Ca (0.5ml) are you thinking about the Ca in my Terra helping me along? I know this Plagron used the soil alone as the Ca source. I don't really have a soil though. Canna Terra is very weak.



Edit: This last run, where a little improvement was seen, I dropped the Ca to 44 to help the K get ahead. I mimicked the ionic that worked to start with, but didn't get the rash.
It's possible I misread the rash. It could of been Mg I guess. I'm not great at visual identifications, and have no lab options. If memory serves me well, it was almost like insects were peppering them

 

[jackspratt61]

You're burning the plants. Too much k early not enough ca. Wait until after stretch to ramp up the k.
Good chatting.

 

[f-e]

Well here is a turn up for the books. Following that day of just Ca and Mg, Then day feeding a bit milder and low P, I have a bad leaf again. First in ages, like a fair few cycles. I found it in an expected spot. Where the first often shows. I have found other people with the same leafs after years of searching, but each didn't have a suitable explanation. P excess was one, excess light another, low water movement another.
Having thought excess K is bad since long before LEDs, I don't tend to add any. I have even made feeds without it. If it's excess K, I don't know where from. My last run was the first time I actually increased it (as i dropped Ca and Mg) and the first crop improvement. Seeing this leaf problem back, after pushing Ca and Mg way ahead, makes me wonder if calcium is blocking K, leading to burn. Someone did comment on that big thread, that something seemed to be taking Ks place. I thought Na likely, from my coco (Asia not south America)

I need to check my delivery, as runoff was barely existent today. I think the lower P might also be why they drank. They used to drink more, with that 40ppm P feed before things went wrong. I saw Ca as my problem, and have been putting in more consistently. This could actually be high Ca.

Do you think K deficiency shows up differently under LED? This is a question I have wanted to post for a while. We don't see much of the old K threads anymore. The pics we see in guides, are no longer posted by people. That sort of burning from low water movement, isn't common. We do see some dropped dry leaves posted a lot though. VPD has become more important. There is a change I'm sure.

 

[f-e]

Here's the leaf. Could this be burning from a lack of K, further pushed out by Ca. Them stripes have a certain white almost in places, that was more prominent on the old thread. White tissue and burnt tissue, both relate to low K. Okay my Ca was just 88, but the soil base feed doesn't even have any. They think some/enough would be in the soil. I don't just have the 88 I gave. Then I must consider the 'matter of fact' way someone looked at my old thread, as what's displaced my K. It all fits. However, I'm just learning from myself. What do I know. My plants are not good.

Look at the next blade. Odd..

I can't say with 100% certainly that this all come in the last couple of days, but a lot of it did. Still.. It could be a red herring

 

[dramamine]

Hi f-e, good thread. Is there a chance it's too much chlorides causing that tip necrosis? Or does the issue pre-date your using the ca cl?

 

[f-e]

Hey man. Thanks for passing by. Yes, the calcium chloride in quantity is pretty new. I had my run-off analysed quite often, and levels were okay.

I looked up level yesterday. Some say 30ppm chloride can be bad. Others say 1300ppm can show no damage to soil. That was the top researcher from an Australian brand we know. The spread of figures is insurmountable. Some of our feeds boast about no chloride like it matters. It's use is growing though.

Sorry I can't put a better number to it.

Really I am

 

[jackspratt61]

Here's the leaf. Could this be burning from a lack of K, further pushed out by Ca. Them stripes have a certain white almost in places, that was more prominent on the old thread. White tissue and burnt tissue, both relate to low K. Okay my Ca was just 88, but the soil base feed doesn't even have any. They think some/enough would be in the soil. I don't just have the 88 I gave. Then I must consider the 'matter of fact' way someone looked at my old thread, as what's displaced my K. It all fits. However, I'm just learning from myself. What do I know. My plants are not good.


Look at the next blade. Odd..

I can't say with 100% certainly that this all come in the last couple of days, but a lot of it did. Still.. It could be a red herring

It's a puzzler. Can you post whole plant?

 

[f-e]

It's a puzzler. Can you post whole plant?

I will try tomorrow, but they are going to look fine, apart from premature aging of the white hairs, and not as advanced as they could be. The bottoms are dropping leaves, but only because I have been finding the point where this happens, as I wanted a low N run to see if it's excess was the problem.

I note today, a couple of buds looking a bit thin. Hard but no width. Spear like. Only a bit, but it does come with the bad leaf symptoms.
There are only a few things in a feed, and each has been up and down. Only very low P and low Ca have not been done in isolation.

Today was just 14ppm P and 44ppm Ca and they drank well, according to runoff volume. Tank filling took longer, but I will check my delivery rate to be sure.
I will have to stick with this feed level now. Give them chance to adapt to it, and show me how they feel about it. I know in 2 weeks they will like it. I'm bringing it forward.

 

[jackspratt61]

YouTube has video critical points of influence by aea ag. About 23 minutes is a piece on calcium. Very solid.

 

[f-e]

YouTube has video critical points of influence by aea ag. About 23 minutes is a piece on calcium. Very solid.

That might be the best youtube I ever watched. I need to relate the stages he speaks about to our plants properly though. In the Q&A he speaks of grass plants never reaching the reproductive stage, unless making seeds. However we see blooming as the reproductive stage. It's late here.. 6:30am... I will relate things better when I watch it again tomorrow.

First online media I have bothered to watch. Just the sort of stuff I want. Much of which isn't in print yet. That's seriously on the pulse.

Thank you. I have lined up his blog and website for tomorrow.

 

[jackspratt61]

That might be the best youtube I ever watched. I need to relate the stages he speaks about to our plants properly though. In the Q&A he speaks of grass plants never reaching the reproductive stage, unless making seeds. However we see blooming as the reproductive stage. It's late here.. 6:30am... I will relate things better when I watch it again tomorrow.

First online media I have bothered to watch. Just the sort of stuff I want. Much of which isn't in print yet. That's seriously on the pulse.

Thank you. I have lined up his blog and website for tomorrow.

If you can,get a pic of one in veg too

 

[f-e]

Poor pics warning.

About 3 days ago, these were in 35 cell tray, looking like sticks. Moved in 15 cell an topped. Only the side growth is representative. It will be a couple more weeks before they are bushes worth truly seeing.

The green in the foreground is an outdoor that barely drinks. In a mixed tray getting dunked, it will always be too wet and get a leaf like this.
Okay.. no more excuses. It is what it is. No cherry picking. Caught in the act. You got me. Salted trays and all.
The green and white are both outdoor mums. The other 13 must provide 8 good plants to bloom.


Flow area:
Again, caught in the act. I'm not defoliating this run. Not as a comparison though. It's because I'm being slack and only interested in pinpointing my issue. The actual result... much less important.
I will point to thin leaf blades and red petioles, as fairly minor pointers. It's the singed hairs though. Still spreading. Day 23 I see the first sign. Day 25 a few dotted about. Day 28 we might be at 10%, Day 30 I could reach a third. By day 35, one particular strain can have few white hairs left. That a 10 day windowm from white to brown. If I give up and just give an all-round base feed about ec5 they will speed up their weight gain. They are finding something toxic, but I'm almost out of things I can remove. Having done most boosts long ago. I'm here, so best positioned to fix it. I'm not exactly daft. I have decades of consistent history. A methodical scientific mind. I'm at a loss (like a 50% loss)

Today they drank lots. It was very warm though, my heater lots the plot, so I had mid summer in mid winter. Still, they have not drank so much since things went bad at 7.45L per meter. Though it was hot and no defoliation. Which is unusual.

I must put up a thread about the onset of brown hairs. So I can see who else gets similar issues. If they respond to it, and how they get on. I think this must be 10 bad crops now, I don't want to count. It's not making me happy. I'm much closer to cliff jumping.

 

[jackspratt61]

The first couple of weeks or so after flip,depending on strain, should be focused on calcium,p if needed, and metals at higher ratios.

All plants have a root flush prior to flowering. It can be a short window. Calcium determines bud size. Wait until stretch slows to bring the k. Without proper calcium and metals to the roots the plant will have trouble with additional k.

Your base nutes are balanced with metals but once you add more it will not be balanced. I see low zinc in particular in flower pic.
I think you're close.
What #'s are you feeding in veg?

 

[Sampas92]

Amazing how some experienced guys see things when me being a newb i could only wish having a full tent of happy girls like those.
Please continue and pretend im not here, im just learning

Peace

 

[f-e]

Where are these happy girls you speak of Sampas92 I'm sure you are doing better. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. These are as good as dead now.

I seem OK till after stretch. Then they stop eating and burn the hairs. At this point, I'm starting to think I could stop feeding them, and they would still burn. They will frazzle, then once they move to the last two weeks they start flowering again. It's crazy. The middle part of bloom just stalls. The main progress weeks.

jackspratt61 I'm forever changing things. I'm going to load up more with Ca during this veg run, but I know I have been alright here with 50ppm in the past. That was coco though, and now I'm in soil, puzzled why my base has no Ca in it.
I have been slack, and not logged veg at all. I likely used 94-14-64-64-35

My flowering plants didn't respond well to the low P and Ca feed, and I also had the K lower to suit it a bit better. Far too many bottom leafs were going brown and shriveled. I had to change it. To be fair, That was too many things reduced, to call what happened. Browning hairs continued but slowed though, with that 42-14-90-44-25
I put in 50% more base, and used PK for more reasonable looking npk, and my Ca and Mg remain unaltered from separate sources. Actually, some of my Mg comes from the base, though it's not listed being under 1%. I used 50% more base today to increase the trace stuff that's apparently in there. I have 63-40-140-44-25 which looks low on the Ca. However, my base doesn't use any, which I have to take as an example. Plus the 88 I was thinking about, seems to be an EC problem, and very possibly what they stop taking after stretch. That leads to racing runoff figures and the burning hairs. Perhaps. In any case, I'm done with this feed and not knowing what's in it. Just the fact I'm looking to my last failed run for guidance says it all. I'm stuck for powders in the UK though. MegaCrop is my only option and comes with sludge that blocks drip emitters.
I will see if they change from the increased NPK which are now better balanced. Keeping Ca and Mg unaltered. I was tempted to drop them completely, to be sure they wanted them. Can't change everything though.

It's doing my head in to be honest. At 20 days the runoff rockets. Just as they finish stretch. Then they start getting brown hairs, and days later stall. Though they keep drinking and I keep the runoff in range having anticipated it fully, and fed less of everything.
There is the chance they want something, but I have tried the lot I think. They don't show any serious deficiencies I can see. They the chance they don't want something, as their needs to pivot at this time. I have lower everything at some point though.
My minds sat on roots right now. They do go downhill a bit. From lots of new thick white hairs breaking to surface, to a steady existance that's just a bit off white. Certainly there is some loss. I keep thinking about that late season recovery though. Bad roots don't seem to fit that bill.
I have increased pot sizes, though I did fine in the smaller ones at first. They are still small though.
No more of them odd leafs have come back. Just that one, after a day of just Ca and Mg.

I have not recognised a zinc problem. I will go and look that over now.. What are you looking at?

 

[jackspratt61]

Go back to video and listen to bud initiation(flip) followed by cell division(stretch). Pushing K early is not good.

Without a soil test we are left to making best guesses.

I too have had trouble making the switch to led from hps. So I set up experiment using only perlite as to have no external influences. Easier to manipulate and get feeds as close as possible. A balanced feed should grow a decent plant without an organic buffer.


What I've seen so far:
Under led using just base nutes balance k/ca working from around 1.3:1. Use approximately equal ppms p/mg. Move the Ca until you get the least red. Watch internode lengths closely.
The plants are most responsive immediately after rooting. Take a few extra cuts and try your feeds in perlite.

Zinc shows crooked tips,affects width to length leaf ratios and overall leaf size. Strongly related to P uptake as well. That's why a good purchased feed product should first be balanced with ca/mg to suit the particular grow parameters before moving on to any adjustments.

 

[Sampas92]

All plants have a root flush prior to flowering.

Sorry, but root flush like in release nutrients to the soil?

Peace

 

[Sampas92]

My minds sat on roots right now. They do go downhill a bit. From lots of new thick white hairs breaking to surface, to a steady existance that's just a bit off white. Certainly there is some loss. I keep thinking about that late season recovery though. Bad roots don't seem to fit that bill.

New growth of roots after the downhill providing the new late growth?

To my newb eyes your problem is not nutrients.
If somehow the run off is sky rocketing even if you lower the dosages and your getting some bad roots how can be the what you feed them the problem? I cant grasp the logic in it.

Feeding too much and they vomit and get sick on their own vomit? Wtf? Sorry, but i imagine the root flush like vomit, go figure.

Bro you asked me where they were, i see the brown pistils but i see a bunch of green jungle, resin in big flat leafs, how can my newb ass not seeing great plants? Jack talked about zinc in the flower pic, i started laughing of myself because i was looking at it clueless, really like a blank mind

Either way i hope you figure this out bro

Peace

 

[jackspratt61]

Sorry, but root flush like in release nutrients to the soil?

Peace

Flush of new root growth preparing plant to support new top growth in flower.