"Mini PPK Grow" - Jacks 15-12-26 - Coco/Perlite

[C.O.B.]

D9, My first post was in your first ppk thread. Long, nicely typed full of praises. Then...... My ipad deleted it. I have questions Raven and D9. Can't pm b'cuz I'm a noob. Don't want to have you guys regurgitating info already on the forum somehwere. Just not good with navigating these sites, hence never joining. D9 I have a lot of your jack's info copy and pasted into notes. Raven, that tidbit about reducing the calcinit to zero by week 4 was a gem. Only, now I'll have more calcinit than jacks in my stock bottles.... Woe is me.

 

[C.O.B.]

Scratch the request in the my first post. It's all in here. I'll just copy your mini's for my 2 ppk experiment. My apologies.

 

[Ravenboy]

D9, My first post was in your first ppk thread. Long, nicely typed full of praises. Then...... My ipad deleted it. I have questions Raven and D9. Can't pm b'cuz I'm a noob. Don't want to have you guys regurgitating info already on the forum somehwere. Just not good with navigating these sites, hence never joining. D9 I have a lot of your jack's info copy and pasted into notes. Raven, that tidbit about reducing the calcinit to zero by week 4 was a gem. Only, now I'll have more calcinit than jacks in my stock bottles.... Woe is me.

pretty sure i got that from D9, in a note i copied and pasted into my notes some time ago.


feel free to ask any questions. i a, a PPK noob too, but somebody that comes thru here will be able to answer if i cant

 

[Ravenboy]

Scratch the request in the my first post. It's all in here. I'll just copy your mini's for my 2 ppk experiment. My apologies.

i think you'll be happy.

mine isn't a huge PPK rig, 10 liters of doc perlite and stand alone 5 gallon buckets for reservoirs. 1.5" kitchen sink tailpieces, some cheap aquarium pumps. you'll need some kind of cycle timer of course

i though managing the reservoirs independently would be a hassle, but jacks is SO stable it hasn't been a problem

if a reservoir is 5.6 or so and continually heading down, won't budge when you top off, with jacks (i add mine at PH 6.4, always) thats when i dumped. two weeks i have gone not needing to dump, i don't know yet what the limit is

even a newness at 6.4, with no ph down in two days its 5.8 or 5.8 and stable for a while. when the plants get bigger it gets more stable, and ph has been about 6.1 when it settle down in this case.

my mix always is at 6.,4 with no PH down. i tried mixing it to 5.8 and in my case was a bad idea. fell off to 5.2 from 5.8 in two days.

a lot might depend on your water. Buenos Aires water is top notch. 170 PPM (.5 scale) , ph 7.4 , apparently enough calcium and magnesium that plants like it

 

[Ravenboy]

Ravenboy, read your Coco/perlite hempy thread,(thanks i picked up a few pointers from it...total pond barley extract for one) as well as your mini ppk thread. Glad you made it this way. Also read thee whole ppk thread by D9. Joined the site after reading it thinking I'd get to see pics....Nope! .

I've been running hempies(100% perlite) for years and finally switched to coco/perlite hempies and have been in them as well as coco/perlite smart pots for a out 8 months now.

Reading your hempy thread led me into the ppk world. Thank you. I now feel confident enough to try a mini ppk for 1 maybe 2 plants. It'll take a few months to totaly make the switch, but I feel I need to construct and run at least 1. Did SOME researching after joining up and really couldn't find an updated build/tutorial on the system. I know there have been updates or modifications to the original pulse ppk, ie... I saw that tire valves were replaced with grommets and ....

I have coco and perlite. Also have access to flor dry and rice hulls. I really want to try that combo. IN your opinion should I just try the mediums I have on hand before diving in?
Lastly, can you point me in the right direction for a build list for a 3.5 on a 3.5 gal mini ppk? I'll have to admit, I haven't read this thread yet except the last page, but I am on my way back to the beginning.

C.O.B.

thanks for the kudos on that thread (its on another forum, before i came here)

me, i'd go coco perlite. knowing how it behaves in a hempy has helped me. just don't float that crap in a flood, finer grained coco will rush into the top of the tailpiece, but its covered by screen so it will instantly plug.

test in the bath tub, find out how much it takes in volume to JUST float the coco perlite, and start off giving a bit less. as roots get into the medium, it will tend not to want to float so much during a flood (roots do this in hempy buckets too after a while it WONT float.)



. i put chunky perlite (had to screen it myself, cant get that here) in the tailpiece, and also the bottom of the bucket up to about an inch... then screen over it (the gutter screen, 1/8" i think) then carefully lay down coco perlite until the screen is covered and not moving around, then fill.

so i am able to Flood, completely saturating the coco perlite, in one really fast surge. 1.6 gallons saturates my pots, and i deliver it in 12 seconds so the pump can overpower the drainage of the tailpiece in order to get the pot saturated. it works, and it is working very well, but only because the coco perlite has a "leach field of pure perlite" under it, and its large, its the diameter of the pot and an inch deep. like a sump.

i am using fine grained used coco, GH coctek, on its third grow, and chunky perlite, probably 60 percent perlite. i wanted great drainage

i fill it about 2 1/2" below the top of the pot. I do LST, and need room for the drip ring to fit between the LST wire (running to the top edge of the pot) above it, and the top of the coco perlite below it. otherwise you cant rotate the drip ring around the pot when you turn the plant. this way you can rotate the pot 180 degrees without also rotating the reservoir under i (because of the hose winding up around the bottom pot its an issue)

if you don't do the minis (individual pumps in each site res, no main res) , the feed line doesn't run into the site container but to the main res, so the issues come out a little different

if you do the minis, and are using aquarium water pumps, they usually come with suction cups to fasten to the glass. don't use those. fasten the pump securely to the hose, but let the pump just hand off the hose on the bottom, that way if you rotate the plant by rotating the top of the reservoir (assuming it has a round top) the pump will follow the hose as you rotate the res top (hose goes THRU it) instead of trying to disconnect from it because it is suction cupped to the bottom off the reservoir

you only need one cycle timer (needs to be a be to handle the load of all pumps if you go that route) , i have one per pot (DIY special) . I always run several strains in a grow and want to have flexibility as to feed cycles and flood durations.

 

[Ravenboy]

wow. Lights are on in tent 1 after 24 hours of darkness.

just checked all 5 mount cook plants. And all 5 plants still appear to have early feminine pre flowers. More of them since last week. i don't see any knobs forming and evolving into a cluster on a stalk

pointy pre flowers, on one i think I see a white hair, but don't know yet.... just a speck of white on the end of a pointy female pre flower looking thing

but i have been wrong before. a few days, certainly not much more than a week at the outside, and we will know

5 for 5 would be a first for me, in MANY years of growing . i don't think its ever happened, so i am thinking i must be not seeing correctly.

the three feminized plants, 2 NL x BB, 1 bubblegum, have ABUNDANT female white hair pre flowers and they will remain in veg for a week or so.... the ones i am anxious about (the 5 photos) , they are ten days OLDER than the feminized ones, and not a white hair yet, except that one dot.

this is getting exciting

 

[Ravenboy]

a few really nice looking roots about 6 inches long, and rather thick, coming out from end of the the tail pipe, 3" under the surface of the res, , on the first plant i checked. WOW are they WHITE and growing in 85 degree water that doesn't even have bubbles in it.

should i be worried about blockage? is it normal unless its too much. does this ALWAYS happen?

how will i know if its too much, could it just all of a sudden clog. will the plant show any signs before a clog (like being too wet?)

these weren't coming out the tailpipe before the plant went into 24 hours of dark before flipping today.

3" air gap

is there anything i should do at this point except be hoping it doesn't clog in the next 9 weeks?



its only a few roots so far, i will post a pict. soon as i can figure out how to support the pot for a shot

 

[C.O.B.]

Thanks for the response RB. Ya, it was D9's info about the reduction of calcinit.My bad.

I have enough coco left for 2 2.5 gal hempy pots mixed 50/50 w/chunky perlite.
Sometimes I reuse the coco. Laziness dependant. I have coco loco and cocotek gs-4 or gs-5 can't remember atm (I mix the two brands).

I could do 1 3.5 in a 5 gal coco/perlite ppk and a floor dry/rice hull or perlite ppk same bucket set up.
I do want to do the minis. Easier to do while not disrupting my perpetual op going. I can easily slide 2 mini ppks in the veg tent and have them wait their turn to jump in the rotation.

Finally caught up and sub'd.

 

[C.O.B.]

All I'd need as far as parts go are,
*manifold- either the halo rings or diy like you've done
*tailpiece. I've seen D9 mention the "snap-in" drain that'll fit inside the tailpiece. Are these used now in place of the screen material and zipties?
*I have a few submersible pumps from a few of my diy ez cloners, diff sizes will those suffice. Can and will purchase new aquarium pumps if need be.
* The pulse timer. Gonna need help with this one. I've built a repeat cycle timer out of the 24 hour pin type timer for my cloner. I can pulse in minute increments up to 54 minutes an hour. I'm sure I'll need a diff timer. I'm pretty diy savvy, just not electrically savvy as electrical components and connections and such. I am envious of the control panel you built and mounted to the top of the tent.

 

[C.O.B.]

RB, D9 stated he cuts the roots off that come out the tailpipe. If I'm not mistaken he checks before they flip. I'd rip them, won't hurt the girl and they won't grow back. Well, roots will grow thru stretch with not much concentration on root growth afterwards. This is a different beast altogether so I'll stop now with my psuedo ppk knowledge.

 

[Ravenboy]

All I'd need as far as parts go are,
*manifold- either the halo rings or diy like you've done
*tailpiece. I've seen D9 mention the "snap-in" drain that'll fit inside the tailpiece. Are these used now in place of the screen material and zipties?
*I have a few submersible pumps from a few of my diy ez cloners, diff sizes will those suffice. Can and will purchase new aquarium pumps if need be.
* The pulse timer. Gonna need help with this one. I've built a repeat cycle timer out of the 24 hour pin type timer for my cloner. I can pulse in minute increments up to 54 minutes an hour. I'm sure I'll need a diff timer. I'm pretty diy savvy, just not electrically savvy as electrical components and connections and such. I am envious of the control panel you built and mounted to the top of the tent.

i am using the AC220V Programmable Time Delay Relay DH48S-S. they also make a 110v version. here are links

110v version
DH48S-S
110v link

220 V version
DH40S-S (note that the model number is the same as the 110v version)
220 version

its pretty easy to wire these cycle timers. the 5 controllers, the AC HOT and Neutral leads daisy chain the "controller side" of the devices relays together. only the relay hot AC hot is switched, and each controls relay output runs to one of the stitched outlets in a row below the controller - all you need is a screwdriver. I found a dos in the electrical section of our home depot like store, i cut the openings using a dremel tool and a cutoff wheel and squared the openings using a file.

the neutral wire runs also from the neutral inside the box to the outlets. the hot leads from each controller runs to the switch on its outlet, and the stick is wired to the hot side of the outlet.


the power to the controller box powers all the timers, and ultimately all the pumps.



these come with nice plugs that make wiring them together a snap.

i will draw up a diagram showing the wiring of a plug.

and if you want to do a cycle timer like this and aren't comfortable with wiring AC equipment, this is so simple surely you can find someone to help. or you can post picts and I'll help. this is EASY if you know what lug on the connector is connected to what

(the think to know is its the HOT side of the AC that you "switch". if you 'switch' the neutral (with the timers, and the mechanical switches) - the outlet is always HOT even if the switch is turned off.

its against code, and someone could get shocked.
even killed, and you are doing this around where there is WATER.

so always switch THE HOT SIDE OF THE AC

next i will post the diagram. i had to open the box. I wired one timer as a test, got it working, and used it as a "Go By" as a wired the box, so i didn't have a diagram before I closed the boxes. I just opened one up and will draw the wiring of two controllers used to control two switched outlets.

 

[Ravenboy]

this first part is just the wiring diagram, explanation of the function of the pins on the timer, and how we will use them

the how to part will be after this post. if you are electrically inclined, you will know "how to" my reading just this post.

--------------
here is a link to the manual for the timer.
the sections about the DH48S-1Z are the pertinent sections

The timer uses AC power to power itself. The relay is SPST. When the relay latches, pins 6 and 8 on the socket are connected. . When its open, pins 5 and 8 are connected. you can route AC current up to 230VAC at 5 amps, and DC current up to 24 volts at 7 amps between pins 5 and 8 or 6 and 8 depending on how your requirements . we are using 6 and 8. that way the delay runs first and THEN the pump gets power.

we only care about turning a pump on and off, and we don't care if anything is being turned ON when the pump isn't running, so we will only use one pair pf pins to control the pump, pins 6 and 8, and we will route 230VAC (or 110VAC) through 6 and 8 and that will turn the pump on and off

more about that later.

i have mine wired when when the display is counting on the LEFT side of the front of the unit, the pump is running. IF the display socks off numbers on the right side, the delay part of the cycle is running. Additionally i have mine wired to do the DELAY first, then run the pump. You can have it run the pump first when its turned on, but you wire it a little differently.

the timer

here is the back of the timer showing the pins

and pin detail for our use of this timer, and for the discussion to follow

the point of view in the next photo is looks at the surface of the socket that contacts the plug. so its reversed with respect to the previous diagram

NOTE: there are numbers cast into the plastic of the socket. ignore them completely. they do NOT correspond to the pins on the timer (plug is used for a lot of chinese electronic stuff sold in the same case)

these timers sell for around 100 bucks retail.. buying them on eBay from china is MUCH cheaper. around 1- to twelve dollars per timer.


my pumps don't have a ground. just hot and neutral, so i didn't bother to run a ground. the timer doesn't have one either so you can ignore it. However, be aware that anything that you plug into this cycle timer, if it needs a ground to be safe, it isn't going to have one. If you need it, just connect the ground from the power cord to the ground lugs on all the outlets.

the power cord HOT goes to pin 7. and I picked up 230vAC to be controlled by the timer for the power to the pump by connecting a jumper between pin 7 and 8. when the relay latches, pin 8 can route power to pin 6, so pin 6 is the "TIMED" power to the pump

the neutral from the power cord goes to pin two.

You can optionally use some other pins and added switches to reset the timer, or pause it by connecting pin 1 to pins 4 or 3 though switches you could put on the front panel. I didn't care about pause, and i just cycle the power to reset. but all the timers in the enclosure get reset that way. thats ok with me. i don't reset it much. The timer needs a reset any time you change the display on the front . the new setting don't take hold until a reset or power cycle

so, to daisy chain two timers, wires are connected between pin 2 (neutral) on both timers, and between pin 7 (hot) on both timers

thats it. pin 6 of the timer is the one that powers the pump, the way i have wired the timer.

its the pin 6 that is connected to the power switch on the timers combination switch/outlet box. I like having the outlets have SPST on/off switches. that comes in VERY handy. I wish i had put an SPST with ON the face of there cycle timer box...
the panel it plugs into IS switched, and easier to access so i though i could skip it. nope.


So, thus far we have talked about the pin numbers, the numbers on the socket itself DO NOT CORRESPOND TO THESE NUMBERS. thats why i have provided the graphics.

next post ill show a pict of a wired soccer.

i wish i had taken pictures as i built the whole thing. i could do a complete cycle timer thread, not just explain how to use these timers.
still you have enough info NOW to use this. I had nothing! just the timer, and had it running in twenty minutes (had to download the manual and study it)

 

[C.O.B.]

RB, thank you for the response. I'm pretty handy diy, I've built a few cob light bars. The pictures and explanation really helped. I'll admit I was being lazy and didn't want to read/research further into it. I'll definitely be hitting you up once I have the parts ordered.

C.O.B.

 

[C.O.B.]

Oh and the cycle timer thread will be greatly appreciated by more than myself I'm sure.

C.O.B.

 

[Ravenboy]

All I'd need as far as parts go are,
*manifold- either the halo rings or diy like you've done
*tailpiece. I've seen D9 mention the "snap-in" drain that'll fit inside the tailpiece. Are these used now in place of the screen material and zipties?
*I have a few submersible pumps from a few of my diy ez cloners, diff sizes will those suffice. Can and will purchase new aquarium pumps if need be.
* The pulse timer. Gonna need help with this one. I've built a repeat cycle timer out of the 24 hour pin type timer for my cloner. I can pulse in minute increments up to 54 minutes an hour. I'm sure I'll need a diff timer. I'm pretty diy savvy, just not electrically savvy as electrical components and connections and such. I am envious of the control panel you built and mounted to the top of the tent.

hmmm. thats not a manifold. a manifold is for connecting several pipes or hoses to one pump, for example.

I did DIY spray rings because I can' t get anything else where i live. they don't drip in my case, my pumps are intentionally powerful so i can do flood instead of pulse feeding - i feed in 7 second heavy floods to fully saturate the coco and completely exchange the gases

you definitely DO need a different timer. you need "n time" resolution of seconds up to hours, in my opinion. when they are small you might be giving them a small amount every 90 minutes. i am feeding tent 2 .7 liters. less than a quart. the other one is getting 1.6 every 90.

in my case, its delivered in seconds.

its better not to adjust your pump capacity and volume fed just so you can be sure that a minute of on time doesn't deliver too much.
design it all up front, and design in flexibility. that time is too limited


my opinion. could you use that timer. maybe, if you design everything else so that timer will be a good player for you.

 

[Ravenboy]

RB, thank you for the response. I'm pretty handy diy, I've built a few cob light bars. The pictures and explanation really helped. I'll admit I was being lazy and didn't want to read/research further into it. I'll definitely be hitting you up once I have the parts ordered.

C.O.B.

don't know if i am doing a cycle timer thread. mine are up and running, and i won't be building any more for years.

its better if its a construction how-to. right now i cant even take it =down to take photos of anything you cant see when its pn the top of the tent

I'm glad to help you build one though. i recommend you mount it where you cant control it during lights out. if you hear water splashing in a zipped up tent during lights out, you can kill the pumps.

my solution for that was mount it on the front edge of the top of the tent. worked out super, so well, that i moved my inline exhaust fan from inside top of the tent to outside top of the tent. i designed the mount for the cycle timer to do double duty. i CAN send picts of that.

if you built COB lights, this is no more complicated. just more connections, thinking, wiring, fiddling - but its EASY.

 

[Ravenboy]

All I'd need as far as parts go are,
*manifold- either the halo rings or diy like you've done
*tailpiece. I've seen D9 mention the "snap-in" drain that'll fit inside the tailpiece. Are these used now in place of the screen material and zipties?
*I have a few submersible pumps from a few of my diy ez cloners, diff sizes will those suffice. Can and will purchase new aquarium pumps if need be.
* The pulse timer. Gonna need help with this one. I've built a repeat cycle timer out of the 24 hour pin type timer for my cloner. I can pulse in minute increments up to 54 minutes an hour. I'm sure I'll need a diff timer. I'm pretty diy savvy, just not electrically savvy as electrical components and connections and such. I am envious of the control panel you built and mounted to the top of the tent.

tailpiece.... i didn't do the new style, but i will next grow. there are a LOT of tailpiece solutions floating around, all of them seem fine.

on the one D9 was discussing, the lower end 'cap' thing is a good way instead of a screen/ , use chunky perlite, and there is no screen to later fall off at the bottom. larger diameter. i used 1.5" sink tailpieces thinking that since i wasn't using 7 gallon pans, only 2 gallons of coco, a smaller tailpiece would do. bad call.

 

[C.O.B.]

Manifold was indeed a misuse of wording. The diy flood/spray rings is what I was referring to. This explanation of the timer will suffice. I've read it over a few times also the pics finally appeared. Thank you.

 

[Ravenboy]

yes, since i use pretty big pump for a single plant, i needed a spray ring with 1/8" holes. so i made my own from 1/2 inch garden hose and some plastic elbows and t's. thirty 1/8 holes, even in the elbows and the T, all at a little different angle. does a great job.

30 hole, and the thing will still shoot water 5" when held horizontally. i have them spraying into leica rock to divert the spray, spread it around and suck it up without splashing or causing any erosion. its working really well.

and they were cheaper than store b ought, and i cant get store bought here anyway

 

[DaGrassMan]

Hello!

I became interested in this PPK thing, and your grow from another site. Glad I was able to find you here and read the rest of the thread. Very interesting. I will be watching along to see the growth rates.