Mini Breeding Clarifications

[Rhizoma]

Hello everyone,
Hopefully you can help me to better understand if this project is feasible.

I would like to breed for genetic conservation and diversity.
Ideally do the following:
- From a pack of seeds ( X10 regular hypothetically) germinate 5 seeds and cross them ( open,selective,etcdepending on project) and keep the other 5 in the vault ( fridge
- Ideally from the 5 seeds, I would like to achieve 30 good seeds for germination test and eventually back cross testing and other 30 seeds to conserve as following:
X10 in the vault to conserve the genetic
X10 for me to use in future
X10 to share to whom may need or deserve

Here the issue:
I could set up another room for flowering breeding only under 50w cfl at the moment 3125lumn. Or 50w LED (50% 100WLED board) in the future.
I could assume that 50w are fine for 1sq/ft and here the question if I can at least flower 1-2 little plants just to achieve 60 good quality seeds min.? 20cm cut micro flowering plants,including cup style.
I can't go over this and ideally below if possible (20-30W sq/ft).

Anyone can address me on the right location and advise? Or share any experience?


Many thanks in advance
R

 

[Fuel]

Maybe i miss the informations in your text, but the effective surface (to determine slots) is the starting point.

 

[Desert Dan]

I think you are over complicating the process… pop them all, keep clones, and let them do their thing.

You can keep the seeds separated by phenotype and later backross to the clone if desired.

I’ve pollinated cuts in solo cups and gotten close to 100 seeds.

-DD

 

[GMT]

Ideally to grow bud, you're going to want a minimum of 40w per sq foot. But if all you want is seeds, you could get away with less.

You will run into less problems if you germinate the seeds, grow them a little under 24 hrs light, then clone them. This is because it takes a minimum amount of time for a plant to become sexually mature. By cloning them, you are giving these new clones time to become adults, and so be capable of breeding, but not running into the problem of them becoming too big or root bound in small containers. The originals can be thrown away once your clones have rooted.

Once you are happy with your clones, and they are around a month from seed, drop the light to your 12/12 flowering cycle, and you should be good.

 

[Rhizoma]

@Fuel Absolutely.
1 sq/ft could be 30x30 ( grow room 40x40)
I could set up a 60x60 or 40x60 but still using 50-55W to cover a 30x30 cm area

 

[Rhizoma]

@ Desert Dan

I’ve pollinated cuts in solo cups and gotten close to 100 seeds

This is what I hopped to hear.
Thanks

 

[Rhizoma]

Ideally to grow bud, you're going to want a minimum of 40w per sq foot. But if all you want is seeds, you could get away with less.

You will run into less problems if you germinate the seeds, grow them a little under 24 hrs light, then clone them. This is because it takes a minimum amount of time for a plant to become sexually mature. By cloning them, you are giving these new clones time to become adults, and so be capable of breeding, but not running into the problem of them becoming too big or root bound in small containers. The originals can be thrown away once your clones have rooted.

Once you are happy with your clones, and they are around a month from seed, drop the light to your 12/12 flowering cycle, and you should be good.

Thank you !!

 

[Tynehead Tom]

Ideally you would want to pop the whole pack and open pollinate the lot to be able to preserve any diversity. 10 seeds isn't really ideal for this but it's just your own personal project so work with what you have.
I would want to put more than 10 away though as again, there will be very little "preserved" in those 10 seeds.
I typically want to see at least 30 to 40 seeds (minimum) if I was going to do any real preservation work.
That way the undersireable or less than ideal plants can be culled before any are chosen to make seed with.
Hard to do in small spaces but if you can master growing in solo cups it is totally possible to run some modest numbers to make any preservation worth while.

 

[Fuel]

1 sq/ft could be 30x30 ( grow room 40x40)
I could set up a 60x60 or 40x60 but still using 50-55W to cover a 30x30 cm area

First, CFLs are generally overrated. I've actually a 750w set (3x250) running in a tent, but that eat just a bit more of 500w at the wattmeter. Beside the tech preferences, i think that for this space a 100w led panel was a good goal. Maybe you should watch some DIY project with strips, i'm not using LED but i've saw quite cheap builds that can fit your need.

In term of space if you can go for the 2sqft/60x60, it will be great and enough to have fun. In adapting your methods to the space and in limiting the volume of medium (in using rose's pots or young tree ones) that's around 15 specimens at a time. Packed, but the weed is not the goal.

From a pack of seeds ( X10 regular hypothetically) germinate 5 seeds and cross them ( open,selective,etcdepending on project) and keep the other 5 in the vault ( fridge

It's not justified considering that you can launch them all in the space set. The more you can compare specimens to see patterns, the better. And you're not supposed to keep them all alive until the end, whatever is the project.

Ideally from the 5 seeds, I would like to achieve 30 good seeds for germination test and eventually back cross testing and other 30 seeds to conserve as following:

Very much possible, even with an early pollination.

X10 in the vault to conserve the genetic
X10 for me to use in future
X10 to share to whom may need or deserve

Nonsense for me. Because reaching your autonomy in seeds is the first priority.
Start to spread the love when you reach 10 times this stock, germinate constantly everything else in loop.
It eat a fuck ton of seeds to bring a line to the next level by superior specimens. Even just for the maintenance.

Backcrossing without a constant specimen as pivot point, from seeds, is adding a layer of useless difficulty. But i can eventually respect the strategy if you have something in mind.

I would like to breed for genetic conservation and diversity

A lot of people recently like to give big names to this hobby, and sometimes in explaining the strict reverse that the goal aimed. Anyway it's all about the methodology, not about the space and the light. So it's off topic.

I can't go over this and ideally below if possible (20-30W sq/ft)

If it's about maintaining a photoperiod the time to pollinate or something in this vein, i don't really see a problem. But I think that it's quite lean to fully develop over a dozen of plants for the goal aimed.

Now, it's all about the number of rounds per year you can do in this space. You're your own judge on this, to make it compliant with your goals in breeding.

You will run into less problems if you germinate the seeds, grow them a little under 24 hrs light, then clone them. This is because it takes a minimum amount of time for a plant to become sexually mature.

Two weeks in general, at the moment you lower enough the light exposition. You're not even in the obligation to give a veg phase, and it take the same time to reach this state.

The presence of preflowers isn't related to hormonal maturity. They have to flower for this.

Ideally you would want to pop the whole pack and open pollinate the lot to be able to preserve any diversity.

Doing nothing is not doing something. It's letting the dominance and the mutations crushing the genotype in a too limited scale, over to isolate subgroups to really preserve anything (diversity, specific smoke, traits ...).

Don't get me started on the hardy-weinberg or punnett square, it's an absolute mathematical demonstration that is unable to deal with any external factor. The simple fact to hand-water each plant destroy the model.

And i don't even start to speak about epigenetics factors ^^

 

[Rhizoma]

Ideally you would want to pop the whole pack and open pollinate the lot to be able to preserve any diversity. 10 seeds isn't really ideal for this but it's just your own personal project so work with what you have.
I would want to put more than 10 away though as again, there will be very little "preserved" in those 10 seeds.
I typically want to see at least 30 to 40 seeds (minimum) if I was going to do any real preservation work.
That way the undersireable or less than ideal plants can be culled before any are chosen to make seed with.
Hard to do in small spaces but if you can master growing in solo cups it is totally possible to run some modest numbers to make any preservation worth while.

I start with the assumption that if I would do this, even just for a pack of 10seeds ( which as starting point genetic is what I have or what I can afford), I would still open the genetic pool and multiple the genetic.

Also I guess I should consider the type of breeding processes more simple,adapt to my knowledges and environment.

I will consider as you mentioned more seeds
Many thanks!

 

[Rhizoma]

First, CFLs are generally overrated. I've actually a 750w set (3x250) running in a tent, but that eat just a bit more of 500w at the wattmeter. Beside the tech preferences, i think that for this space a 100w led panel was a good goal. Maybe you should watch some DIY project with strips, i'm not using LED but i've saw quite cheap builds that can fit your need.

In term of space if you can go for the 2sqft/60x60, it will be great and enough to have fun. In adapting your methods to the space and in limiting the volume of medium (in using rose's pots or young tree ones) that's around 15 specimens at a time. Packed, but the weed is not the goal.



It's not justified considering that you can launch them all in the space set. The more you can compare specimens to see patterns, the better. And you're not supposed to keep them all alive until the end, whatever is the project.



Very much possible, even with an early pollination.



Nonsense for me. Because reaching your autonomy in seeds is the first priority.
Start to spread the love when you reach 10 times this stock, germinate constantly everything else in loop.
It eat a fuck ton of seeds to bring a line to the next level by superior specimens. Even just for the maintenance.

Backcrossing without a constant specimen as pivot point, from seeds, is adding a layer of useless difficulty. But i can eventually respect the strategy if you have something in mind.



A lot of people recently like to give big names to this hobby, and sometimes in explaining the strict reverse that the goal aimed. Anyway it's all about the methodology, not about the space and the light. So it's off topic.



If it's about maintaining a photoperiod the time to pollinate or something in this vein, i don't really see a problem. But I think that it's quite lean to fully develop over a dozen of plants for the goal aimed.

Now, it's all about the number of rounds per year you can do in this space. You're your own judge on this, to make it compliant with your goals in breeding.



Two weeks in general, at the moment you lower enough the light exposition. You're not even in the obligation to give a veg phase, and it take the same time to reach this state.

The presence of preflowers isn't related to hormonal maturity. They have to flower for this.



Doing nothing is not doing something. It's letting the dominance and the mutations crushing the genotype in a too limited scale, over to isolate subgroups to really preserve anything (diversity, specific smoke, traits ...).

Don't get me started on the hardy-weinberg or punnett square, it's an absolute mathematical demonstration that is unable to deal with any external factor. The simple fact to hand-water each plant destroy the model.

And i don't even start to speak about epigenetics factors ^^

Many thanks for the comments!!. I will take note of all of them.

Would Be possible to continue the last point?
Do we want to talk about Hardy over a genetic population of 10seeds as a starting point?
Or better how to apply genetic population over reduced spaces? ( Burbank seedling selection?)

 

[Fuel]

Do we want to talk about Hardy over a genetic population of 10seeds as a starting point?

You nailed it, even in ignoring the initial purpose of the demonstration (cold statistics), it don't have any sense to write a breeding plan from it, in term of practical breeding. Eventually for financial purpose and risk management, i can consider it.

Occurrences are not Android apps and not algos, it's an answer to a given chaotic ecosystem (full of variables that can't handle the model).

Or better how to apply genetic population over reduced spaces? ( Burbank seedling selection?)

Burbank was a punk on his game, so he have my sympathy ^^ But at the risk to synthetize too much, yes it's the approach. Constant mapping and screening, this leverage well understood is more powerful than even the scale of the operation.

With a hint of Bateson, a pinch of Mendel and an important consideration for me : seeing, in this very little world that is the "canna-breeding", those that were not limited by an unique exploit and that were able to reproduce results. Unfortunately, they are generally the more silent on practical breeding ^^

 

[Rhizoma]

I still see a purpose and rigorous breeding programme in the small scale.
Firstly with the goal of diversity a F2 generation is more than enough for my intent.
Secondly not breeding for commercial purposes but for pure experimentation , enyoyment and genetic Sovereignty any failure is considered.

To increase diversity I could consider both migration with other seeds of the same breeder/strain or considering crossing, which would be actually the normal way to preserve genetics.

I would like to avoid back crossing which will entail inbreeding.

I am thinking about conservation animal strategies for small scale and which technique could be applied to breeding herbs.

From the initial 10-12-18 seeds in an F2 generation I could have hundred of seeds ( let's assume 500). There I guess I will conserve more diversity that what initial in the pack of seeds.

Or am I wrong?

 

[GMT]

Fuck Burbank, read Charlesworth.

If you're preserving, breed the two most different phenos you can. That should capture the highest number of parental genes, and give the f3's the best chance of representing a higher number of f1's

 

[Fuel]

My opinion on scales is biased, i scaled down a lot to be back at a self-sustainable hobby. I'm disliking the irrationnal constraints of this new era. Just to show my colors, and what is influencing this discussion on my side.

And there is no failures possible in this game (it's why it's addictive), just mapping sessions without outputs.
It's never lost with the right mindset, it's a gain of time for further selections.

Secondly not breeding for commercial purposes

I think it's an error, even if you're at it for the sole pleasure. Spending time (years), making sacrifices in taking risks for it ... should have a big picture. It's not about sales, it's about working on something competitive without ignoring constraints that (was) rational back in the days : stability, singularity of the smoke (a true luxury today), streamlined growth patterns (for obvious reasons) ... rational constraints inherited from commercial purposes help to judge your work in regard of a certain standard.

The "losted island syndrom" is the worse enemy of anyone involved in breeding, from my point of view. And i don't speak about friends that always find your weed the best of the world ^^

I would like to avoid back crossing which will entail inbreeding.

This one was stellar (and cocky), and i totally agree from the couple of failures to have maintained lines pressurized by BX programs (before i get the hand on it). Not a real failure, but at one point you're forced to pass the torch. It feel the same anyway when you passed years at it lol

Unfortunately i have to open the spectrum by honesty, it's when it become a question of scale and money. It's possible to heal a BX line to handle long term strategies, but it require resources that are no longer related to a hobby. Too much parallel lines and specimens to maintain and to cycle for a restricted space, in this context.

I am thinking about conservation animal strategies for small scale and which technique could be applied to breeding herbs.

I try to pass for younger than I am here ^^

From the initial 10-12-18 seeds in an F2 generation I could have hundred of seeds ( let's assume 500). There I guess I will conserve more diversity that what initial in the pack of seeds.

It's possible to SOG 300 decent calibrated seeds per clone, but after a while and enough experience on the line to refine your timing.

A goal of 50-100 seeds per clone is a safe one. Nothing to have with any kind of hierarchy or notion of time, it's the strategy i still adopt to map something i never met before.

Or am I wrong?

Hell no, but i insist : Write on a paper the manner you want to materialize it in methods, with timing and chronology. I still do it too for my little funs, it quickly help to refine the approach in taking in count the person you are but also the context.

Keep the vibes high ;o)

 

[Rhizoma]

Fuck Burbank, read Charlesworth.

If you're preserving, breed the two most different phenos you can. That should capture the highest number of parental genes, and give the f3's the best chance of representing a higher number of f1's

Many thanks for the reference, I will investigate for sure!

 

[Rhizoma]

My opinion on scales is biased, i scaled down a lot to be back at a self-sustainable hobby. I'm disliking the irrationnal constraints of this new era. Just to show my colors, and what is influencing this discussion on my side.

And there is no failures possible in this game (it's why it's addictive), just mapping sessions without outputs.
It's never lost with the right mindset, it's a gain of time for further selections.


I think it's an error, even if you're at it for the sole pleasure. Spending time (years), making sacrifices in taking risks for it ... should have a big picture. It's not about sales, it's about working on something competitive without ignoring constraints that (was) rational back in the days : stability, singularity of the smoke (a true luxury today), streamlined growth patterns (for obvious reasons) ... rational constraints inherited from commercial purposes help to judge your work in regard of a certain standard.

The "losted island syndrom" is the worse enemy of anyone involved in breeding, from my point of view. And i don't speak about friends that always find your weed the best of the world ^^


This one was stellar (and cocky), and i totally agree from the couple of failures to have maintained lines pressurized by BX programs (before i get the hand on it). Not a real failure, but at one point you're forced to pass the torch. It feel the same anyway when you passed years at it lol

Unfortunately i have to open the spectrum by honesty, it's when it become a question of scale and money. It's possible to heal a BX line to handle long term strategies, but it require resources that are no longer related to a hobby. Too much parallel lines and specimens to maintain and to cycle for a restricted space, in this context.


View attachment 18950325
I try to pass for younger than I am here ^^


It's possible to SOG 300 decent calibrated seeds per clone, but after a while and enough experience on the line to refine your timing.

A goal of 50-100 seeds per clone is a safe one. Nothing to have with any kind of hierarchy or notion of time, it's the strategy i still adopt to map something i never met before.


Hell no, but i insist : Write on a paper the manner you want to materialize it in methods, with timing and chronology. I still do it too for my little funs, it quickly help to refine the approach in taking in count the person you are but also the context.

Keep the vibes high ;o)

You rock Fuel, amazing comment, very much appreciated.
I have to think about it and the suggestion in programming and scheduling the process is a must.
Thanks again.

 

[Dude.K.]

How many F1 seeds would you guys ideally select from?
If it is a F1, they should be quite homogenous, so possibly not too much room for selecting outliars or rarely combined traits.
I mean the F2 and F3 are far more heterozygous, so i think thats where you want to test the most and really make selections, what is your guys opinion on that theory?

 

[GMT]

Each F1 is made of 50% of each parental plant. So the parents are what dictate the answer.
Let's say you cross P1, a 20th generation (in captivity) Afghani, and a P2 15th generation Columbian line, then the F1's will be fairly uniform in what they inherit. However if you then use one of those F1's as a P1, and cross it to say a F1 Thai x Chinese line, the F1's made will be all over the place. So parental choice requirements aren't a hard rule, it's more important to look at the lines the parental plants came from. Polyhybrids require higher numbers to capture the genes they hold, as they are likely to hold more diversity. Solid lines however, it's not what genes you are capturing, but the count of the gene copies that you want and want to exclude that will vary amongst the offspring. So if you can't run numbers, run solid lines.

 

[GMT]

On F2's and F3's, you have to remember that depending on selections made, f2's can recreate the F1 generation pretty much, if you aren't careful. Or you can exclude so many of the F1 genes, that the f3's are something completely new. You can start to steer the line from the f2's and continue in the same direction with the f3's, that I would call working a line. Or you can preserve what you have to the best of your abilities and try to recreate the original F1's in the F3 population. It's all about original P1 lines and choices made in selection.