Living organic soil from start through recycling
- Thread starter Gascanastan
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YosemiteSam
You're not allowed to say that. I count on maybe 5 people to educate me and you are unfortunate enough to be one of them.
How bout checking to see what Spurrr thinks?
think_fast
Member
Hey folks (specifically newbs to ROLS),
I have read this entire thread as closely as my amateur skills have allowed me, and I have created a very terse compilation of notes, based exclusively from this thread. Meaning anything said can be sourced somewhere in this thread. There is such an extensive array of valuable information here I feel it warrants a summary of key terms/ideas, mainly for any newbs who have joined the boat late and who would like to source information quickly. If one person finds value in them other than myself, then it's worth posting
*Disclaimer*
These are my notes. As such, please take them with a grain of salt. Rather than rely on the specific claims I make in my notes or the figures I use, I recommend using them as an index of terms that can and should be searched for to help you locate specific topics quickly and efficiently. Also, these notes by no means cover all of the topics discussed. Unfortunately, they only touch on topics that are of specific interest to me. For example, you will find nothing regarding breeding, of which there is plenty discussed in this thread. I haven't tested many of these suggestions, and I haven't tested most on a long term basis. Remeber, these notes are coming from a newb!
Without further ado...
ROLS Notes
-Kelp has so many trace elements that it improve plants immune system against disease, insects, weather. Foliar is the most effective. Foliar roots during transplant. Growth max or growth plus are good brands. Foliar in the morning. Apply 1/2-3/4 cup of kelp meal to 1 c.f. of potting soil every recycle. Do not use liquid kelp as these products have far less benefits than raw kelp meal.
-Alfalfa has many trace minerals as well as n-p-k-Ca-mg, sugars, starches, protein, fiber and 16 amino acids. Use on top of soil sprinkling lightly or 1 cup per 1 c.f. soil mix or 1 tbs per gallon ACT. Excellent foliar feed. Use alfalfa seed tea early in flower to reduce internodal spacing.
-Aloe juice - simply crush the leaves and collect the juice. Aloe foliar @ 2 tbls per gallon water once every 3 days. Unprocessed Aloe must use within 20 minutes due to decomposition. Supplement with worm castings and casting teas. Great for rooting clones. Great for PM resistance along with neem, kelp and alfalfa. Excellent in rooting clones just add 2 oz per gallon water. 2 tbls per gallon foliar spray. Apply 1-3 times a week. Soil drench and foliar are identical.
Vermicompost
-use coffee beans for N. ph is about 6.9 for used grounds.
-leaves and straw for bedding.
-add grit like sand or limestone or eggshells for worm digestion @ 1% total mass
-red wriggler can live 0-30 degrees celsius. Optimal temps 15-25
-up to 20% worm biomass
-use citrus peels and onions with caution
-Fish bone meal - replace every other recycle for 5 cycles, then add every 3-4 cycles. Use 1-3 cups per 6 gallons depending on other high N sources such as alfalfa. High in phosphorous.
-Sphagnum peat is not inert it is alive! Look specifically for sphagnum. Holds 20x water to weight. Aerates heavy clay soils. Speeds up composting. Decomposes slowly over several years as opposed to compost which completely decomposes after a year.
-Stinging nettles and comfrey are a powerful pesticide and fungicide. Dice and purée 2 cups of comfrey or stinging nettles and let sit in water for no more than 3 days. Folier as well as soil drench.
-Rice hulls are a superior substitute for perlite. Perlite floats to the top of the pot. Also try lava rock.
-Leaf mold takes 6 months to a year to decompose. Speed the process up by throwing in high N stuff like compost, alfalfa meal. Use 2 quarts per cubic foot of soil. Great for moisture retention and aeration.
-Spider mites - control with neem foliar spray and rosemary oil spray. 10% rosemary oil to 90% water. -cardamom - grind 1/4 cup then place in hot water. Let cool. Go spray spider mites. Lavender tea. mite magnet - live Basel plants.
-Heat stress - use barley seed extract tea, same method as other enzyme seed teas.
-freshly rooted clones - couple days before transplanting add 1 tbs kelp meal , 2 tbs alfalfa meal, 1 gallon water bubble for 36-48 hrs for a boost in growth.
-Mineralization - azomite , gypsum (home depot) limestone and glacial rock @ 32 tbs per c.f. (total)Go to a landscape supply and load a bucket of all the rock u want! Try to go for volcanic rock dusts, as these contain silica.
-Thrips - ladybird larvae eat thrip larvae. Electric bug zapper. Bacteria called spinosad. Monterey garden insect w/ spinosad. Entrust 80w. Nematodes. Mums. Gerbera. Only foliar spray spinosad. Foliar with aloe and protekt. 1/4 aloe 2 tsp protekt per gallon solution. Know thrip life cycle.
-Cilantro pesticide- buy a bunch of organic cilantro. Place in food processor. Throw in 1 gallon of clearwater. Sit for 36 to 48 hours, no more. Strain. Add 1 cup of strained cilantro tea to 15 cups of water. Add quarter cup of Aloe Vera juice. 1 teaspoon pro-tekt. 30 minutes before lights out spray and soak everything. Leave ventilation on. Apply every four days for four applications. Use in conjunction with spinosad.
-Silica - use every watering and foliar spray up to harvest. Great pest and disease control. Protekt and agsil 16h are good brands. Agsil is greater value for your money. 148 grams agsil to 1 litre water = protekt. Silica is an emulsifier (i.e. use with neem oil)! 2 tsp protekt to 1 g water.
-Organic cloning gel - 1 g water, 2 tbs aloe Vera, 1.5 tbs Ful-power, 1.5 ts Protekt. Shake. Soak jiffy pucks for several hours. Use rooting product as well.
-Water retention - saponins. Horse chestnuts have a lot of saponins.
-Foliar - once a week, with something. Stop half way through flower. Always use Ful-Power to half harvest. Use Protekt till harvest.
-Neem - 1/4 cup per 1 cf every re ammend. Foliar-4 tsp per gallon. Emulsify with protekt. Ensure that water is at least 75 degrees fahrenheit when mixing final solution, otherwise it will clump - useless.
-Biochar. Hardwood charcoal. Smash to bits. Prevents yellowing via slow release of nutrients. Optional: place in compost pile. Allow up to 10% total soil volume. Cowboy charcoal from whole foods. Take bag of char, add 1/2 gallon EWC, 2-4 cups fish or guano or alfalfa or comfrey, soak a week in ACT, strain and add to soil.
-Enzyme tea -2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) The choice of seeds is non specific. Almost anything works. Soak for 12-18 hours in mason jar. Drain that water and throw away it’s full of growth inhibitors. After a day or so once sprouted, add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for a 36-48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water as soil drench. Observe 'praying' leaves. Chop seeds for worm food. Do not store these teas.
-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list.
I have read this entire thread as closely as my amateur skills have allowed me, and I have created a very terse compilation of notes, based exclusively from this thread. Meaning anything said can be sourced somewhere in this thread. There is such an extensive array of valuable information here I feel it warrants a summary of key terms/ideas, mainly for any newbs who have joined the boat late and who would like to source information quickly. If one person finds value in them other than myself, then it's worth posting
*Disclaimer*
These are my notes. As such, please take them with a grain of salt. Rather than rely on the specific claims I make in my notes or the figures I use, I recommend using them as an index of terms that can and should be searched for to help you locate specific topics quickly and efficiently. Also, these notes by no means cover all of the topics discussed. Unfortunately, they only touch on topics that are of specific interest to me. For example, you will find nothing regarding breeding, of which there is plenty discussed in this thread. I haven't tested many of these suggestions, and I haven't tested most on a long term basis. Remeber, these notes are coming from a newb!
Without further ado...
ROLS Notes
-Kelp has so many trace elements that it improve plants immune system against disease, insects, weather. Foliar is the most effective. Foliar roots during transplant. Growth max or growth plus are good brands. Foliar in the morning. Apply 1/2-3/4 cup of kelp meal to 1 c.f. of potting soil every recycle. Do not use liquid kelp as these products have far less benefits than raw kelp meal.
-Alfalfa has many trace minerals as well as n-p-k-Ca-mg, sugars, starches, protein, fiber and 16 amino acids. Use on top of soil sprinkling lightly or 1 cup per 1 c.f. soil mix or 1 tbs per gallon ACT. Excellent foliar feed. Use alfalfa seed tea early in flower to reduce internodal spacing.
-Aloe juice - simply crush the leaves and collect the juice. Aloe foliar @ 2 tbls per gallon water once every 3 days. Unprocessed Aloe must use within 20 minutes due to decomposition. Supplement with worm castings and casting teas. Great for rooting clones. Great for PM resistance along with neem, kelp and alfalfa. Excellent in rooting clones just add 2 oz per gallon water. 2 tbls per gallon foliar spray. Apply 1-3 times a week. Soil drench and foliar are identical.
Vermicompost
-use coffee beans for N. ph is about 6.9 for used grounds.
-leaves and straw for bedding.
-add grit like sand or limestone or eggshells for worm digestion @ 1% total mass
-red wriggler can live 0-30 degrees celsius. Optimal temps 15-25
-up to 20% worm biomass
-use citrus peels and onions with caution
-Fish bone meal - replace every other recycle for 5 cycles, then add every 3-4 cycles. Use 1-3 cups per 6 gallons depending on other high N sources such as alfalfa. High in phosphorous.
-Sphagnum peat is not inert it is alive! Look specifically for sphagnum. Holds 20x water to weight. Aerates heavy clay soils. Speeds up composting. Decomposes slowly over several years as opposed to compost which completely decomposes after a year.
-Stinging nettles and comfrey are a powerful pesticide and fungicide. Dice and purée 2 cups of comfrey or stinging nettles and let sit in water for no more than 3 days. Folier as well as soil drench.
-Rice hulls are a superior substitute for perlite. Perlite floats to the top of the pot. Also try lava rock.
-Leaf mold takes 6 months to a year to decompose. Speed the process up by throwing in high N stuff like compost, alfalfa meal. Use 2 quarts per cubic foot of soil. Great for moisture retention and aeration.
-Spider mites - control with neem foliar spray and rosemary oil spray. 10% rosemary oil to 90% water. -cardamom - grind 1/4 cup then place in hot water. Let cool. Go spray spider mites. Lavender tea. mite magnet - live Basel plants.
-Heat stress - use barley seed extract tea, same method as other enzyme seed teas.
-freshly rooted clones - couple days before transplanting add 1 tbs kelp meal , 2 tbs alfalfa meal, 1 gallon water bubble for 36-48 hrs for a boost in growth.
-Mineralization - azomite , gypsum (home depot) limestone and glacial rock @ 32 tbs per c.f. (total)Go to a landscape supply and load a bucket of all the rock u want! Try to go for volcanic rock dusts, as these contain silica.
-Thrips - ladybird larvae eat thrip larvae. Electric bug zapper. Bacteria called spinosad. Monterey garden insect w/ spinosad. Entrust 80w. Nematodes. Mums. Gerbera. Only foliar spray spinosad. Foliar with aloe and protekt. 1/4 aloe 2 tsp protekt per gallon solution. Know thrip life cycle.
-Cilantro pesticide- buy a bunch of organic cilantro. Place in food processor. Throw in 1 gallon of clearwater. Sit for 36 to 48 hours, no more. Strain. Add 1 cup of strained cilantro tea to 15 cups of water. Add quarter cup of Aloe Vera juice. 1 teaspoon pro-tekt. 30 minutes before lights out spray and soak everything. Leave ventilation on. Apply every four days for four applications. Use in conjunction with spinosad.
-Silica - use every watering and foliar spray up to harvest. Great pest and disease control. Protekt and agsil 16h are good brands. Agsil is greater value for your money. 148 grams agsil to 1 litre water = protekt. Silica is an emulsifier (i.e. use with neem oil)! 2 tsp protekt to 1 g water.
-Organic cloning gel - 1 g water, 2 tbs aloe Vera, 1.5 tbs Ful-power, 1.5 ts Protekt. Shake. Soak jiffy pucks for several hours. Use rooting product as well.
-Water retention - saponins. Horse chestnuts have a lot of saponins.
-Foliar - once a week, with something. Stop half way through flower. Always use Ful-Power to half harvest. Use Protekt till harvest.
-Neem - 1/4 cup per 1 cf every re ammend. Foliar-4 tsp per gallon. Emulsify with protekt. Ensure that water is at least 75 degrees fahrenheit when mixing final solution, otherwise it will clump - useless.
-Biochar. Hardwood charcoal. Smash to bits. Prevents yellowing via slow release of nutrients. Optional: place in compost pile. Allow up to 10% total soil volume. Cowboy charcoal from whole foods. Take bag of char, add 1/2 gallon EWC, 2-4 cups fish or guano or alfalfa or comfrey, soak a week in ACT, strain and add to soil.
-Enzyme tea -2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) The choice of seeds is non specific. Almost anything works. Soak for 12-18 hours in mason jar. Drain that water and throw away it’s full of growth inhibitors. After a day or so once sprouted, add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for a 36-48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water as soil drench. Observe 'praying' leaves. Chop seeds for worm food. Do not store these teas.
-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list.
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1/2 - 3/4 cup of kelp meal to 1 c.f. of potting soil
Alginic acid & Mannitol
Alginic acid & Mannitol
You folks should check out https://www.thenaturalhome.com/
Great info at this place and the demonstration home, aka the site owners home, is near Co Spr.
Real Goods (est. 1978) is another good source......located in Willits, California
AKA, Stoneygirl?
GAWD!!! What an awful name... And I keep reading it to boot. lol
I saw enough test grows of her crap to last a lifetime.
I still didn't get to try that 35 day Sativa though... I bet id was the BOMB! Ok... maybe a dud!
Remember the (in)famous 'Stoney Girl Gardens' and her soil mix? Turns out it was just a bale of Sunshine Mix #4 and an off-the-shelf dry fertilizer mix - complete with bone meal, blood meal, feather meal, un-composted chicken manure (but it is 'aged'), dolomite lime, etc. No guano though......
Couple that with her 35-day Sativa (equatorial to boot) and you're on the road to success - OGF style anyway. See MrFixIt for details
CC
Couple that with her 35-day Sativa (equatorial to boot) and you're on the road to success - OGF style anyway. See MrFixIt for details
CC
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think_fast
Member
This is from an email sent to me from Usha Rao of The Ahimsa Alternative regarding the ban of neem products in Canada as of Jan 1 2013. For those of you that don't know, neem will be banned from Canadian retailers claimining it to be an insecticide as of tomorrow. That is, until someone clever enough decides to register it as such. After all, they have a few thousand years of archives to source.
think_fast
Thank you very much for posting this information. I wasn't able to find anything other than forum posts around places like GardenWeb, cannabis boards, etc.
I'm curious though if the Canadian ban is 'neem specific' because if it is then Karanja oil and meals might be legal? (that's a question and not an opinion). For this limited discussion there is no difference between neem & karanja oils and meals for growing plants. You wouldn't lose anything by switching.
You can thank companies like Einstein Oil, the non-neem oil garbage (Azamax, Azatrol, etc), Monterey Garden Products for this new ruling. Regulations are far tighter in Canada than the USA thanks to the toothless tiger called EPA. You can toss USDA into that category as well. Were it not for Canadian products the organic farmers in the states would be in a real mess. Most of the soil amendments like seed meals (soybean, canola, flax, etc.) are imported from Canada. Fish meal (organic versions) are from Canada and of course the Canadian Glacial Rock Dust.
CC
Thank you very much for posting this information. I wasn't able to find anything other than forum posts around places like GardenWeb, cannabis boards, etc.
I'm curious though if the Canadian ban is 'neem specific' because if it is then Karanja oil and meals might be legal? (that's a question and not an opinion). For this limited discussion there is no difference between neem & karanja oils and meals for growing plants. You wouldn't lose anything by switching.
You can thank companies like Einstein Oil, the non-neem oil garbage (Azamax, Azatrol, etc), Monterey Garden Products for this new ruling. Regulations are far tighter in Canada than the USA thanks to the toothless tiger called EPA. You can toss USDA into that category as well. Were it not for Canadian products the organic farmers in the states would be in a real mess. Most of the soil amendments like seed meals (soybean, canola, flax, etc.) are imported from Canada. Fish meal (organic versions) are from Canada and of course the Canadian Glacial Rock Dust.
CC
D
Durdy
My friend is really into the Azatrol
What are some good talking points in convincing him a cold pressed high quality neem/karanja oil is the way to go?
He's used both before and says he likes the Azatrol better. I informed him about the emulsifying process, and he was intrigued.
What are some good talking points in convincing him a cold pressed high quality neem/karanja oil is the way to go?
He's used both before and says he likes the Azatrol better. I informed him about the emulsifying process, and he was intrigued.
think_fast
Member
Regarding emulsifying neem,
I found that mixing it directly with Protekt produced a nice creamy uniform texture, however, upon applying this mixture to the tea or water it did not blend well at all.
Is there something I am missing? Higher Protekt/silica ratio perhaps?
Applying neem oil without a reliable mixing method seems pointless.
And what is the deal with using dishwasher soap as an emulsifier? I have not tried this personally, jus curious.
I found that mixing it directly with Protekt produced a nice creamy uniform texture, however, upon applying this mixture to the tea or water it did not blend well at all.
Is there something I am missing? Higher Protekt/silica ratio perhaps?
Applying neem oil without a reliable mixing method seems pointless.
And what is the deal with using dishwasher soap as an emulsifier? I have not tried this personally, jus curious.
think_fast
Member
Regarding emulsifying neem,
I found that mixing it directly with Protekt produced a nice creamy uniform texture, however, upon applying this mixture to the tea or water it did not blend well at all. Is there something I am missing? Higher Protekt/silica ratio perhaps?
Applying neem oil without a reliable mixing method seems pointless.
And what is the deal with using dishwasher soap as an emulsifier? I have not tried this personally, jus curious.
I found that mixing it directly with Protekt produced a nice creamy uniform texture, however, upon applying this mixture to the tea or water it did not blend well at all. Is there something I am missing? Higher Protekt/silica ratio perhaps?
Applying neem oil without a reliable mixing method seems pointless.
And what is the deal with using dishwasher soap as an emulsifier? I have not tried this personally, jus curious.
think_fast
Member
Sorry I meant dish soap. Not dishwasher soap - whatever that is.
think_fast
After you emulsify the oil and it's ready to mix with the water, it's important that you do not use cold water as this will cause the oil to clump together. You want the water around 75F and when you add the oil mix, stir it around (or shake it) and then add the surfactant - Aloe vera is high in Saponins which is the primary 'sticking' agent with almost all plant-based products used as wetting agents - Horse Chestnut Powder (Buckeyes), Soap Nut Powder (sapindus trifoliatus), Yucca extract (the Yucca Schidigera variety is best), et al. Almost all plants produce Saponins with some creating huge amounts. For example Horse Chestnut powder has 4x the level of Sponins than Yucca extract which is considered very high in these compounds which it is but a few out there are off the chart.
If the Saponin level is high enough then it too will function as an emulsifier Aloe vera & Alfalfa are not high enough. They're fine as a surfactant but you need something else for the oil
Soaps, toothpaste, shampoos, laundry detergents, dish soap and on and on are not naturally 'foamy' so Saponins are added during manufacture. That's what the dish soap deal is about - I think. Probably best to ask someone else and see if they have something more concrete to offer.
CC
After you emulsify the oil and it's ready to mix with the water, it's important that you do not use cold water as this will cause the oil to clump together. You want the water around 75F and when you add the oil mix, stir it around (or shake it) and then add the surfactant - Aloe vera is high in Saponins which is the primary 'sticking' agent with almost all plant-based products used as wetting agents - Horse Chestnut Powder (Buckeyes), Soap Nut Powder (sapindus trifoliatus), Yucca extract (the Yucca Schidigera variety is best), et al. Almost all plants produce Saponins with some creating huge amounts. For example Horse Chestnut powder has 4x the level of Sponins than Yucca extract which is considered very high in these compounds which it is but a few out there are off the chart.
If the Saponin level is high enough then it too will function as an emulsifier Aloe vera & Alfalfa are not high enough. They're fine as a surfactant but you need something else for the oil
Soaps, toothpaste, shampoos, laundry detergents, dish soap and on and on are not naturally 'foamy' so Saponins are added during manufacture. That's what the dish soap deal is about - I think. Probably best to ask someone else and see if they have something more concrete to offer.
CC
Durdy
Here's a couple of talking points:
Azatrol is a product from this company:
PBI/Gordon Corporation - Formulator & Supplier for Greenscapes Across America
1217 W. 12th Street
Kansas City, MO
[cite] and [cite]
Product Label:
ACTIVE INGREDIENT:
Azadirachtin......1.2%
Other Ingredients...98.8%
The terms 'other' and 'inert' are used instead of water - no need to kick a guy when he's down, right?
Azamax comes from a competitor - Parry America, Inc. in Sacramento, Caliornia. Same exact Azadirachtin level - 1.2% so the next time you're reading a discussion about how Azamax is far superior to Azatrol (or vice versa) you can have a good chuckle or two.
Both of these products contain a single compound, Azadirachtin, which is extracted using Hexane Extraction. If it were a fact that this specific compound was the most effective pesticide out of the 21 others in neem & karanja oils/meals, then you could possibly make some kind of argument but that isn't the case at all. The 21 number are just pesticide compounds, there are an additional 340 other compounds that provide other benefits. The compounds that we're concerned about total about 85 - fungicides, etc.
What is the case is that this compound is found in higher levels than other compounds like Alannin, Meliantriol, Salannin, Nimbin, Nimbidin, Nimbolide, Gedunin, Mahmoodin and several others which function in different ways as a pesticide (anti-feedants, inhibiting egg production, etc.) Azadirachtin is a growth inhibitor. Higher levels = easier extraction.
Then there is the pricing - the suggested mixing rate for Azatrol is 1 oz. per gallon of water. I looked-up the price at Amazon and 1 quart is $90.00 and that would give you 32 gallons of solution.
A gallon of organic Neem oil at Neem Resource is $83.00 and Karanja oil costs $72.00 per gallon - so that's 4 quarts. Their suggested mixing ratio is either 1/2 oz. (tablespoon) or 4 tsp. of oil - one or the other. Using the 1/2 oz is easier arithmetic - 1 gallon = 256 gallons of solution.
Here's the final discussion point - Azamax or Azatrol gives you a single pesticide compound. There is absolutely nothing in these products to protect your plants from Powdery Mildew so it's back to the grow store to buy a fungicide or IPM product.
Garden costs pile up pretty quickly doing the grow store route doesn't it?
CC
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This online book on Neem is a good overview and reference to keep around, IMHO
This chapter if nothing else......
This chapter if nothing else......
HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!
Nice summary think fast.
All,
I've use quite a few native weeds to make Teas with and it seems with all of them there are nearly instant positive results. Wondering if there might be a listing of what NOT to use as it seems it would be a much shorter list.
Also, considering that silica is the most abundant element on the planet and it is what makes quite a few toxic plants toxic (vetches and nettles comes to mind), could those plants be used in leu of the silica products or is the silica locked up inside the plant tissues, unavailable until it's been broken down?
Nice summary think fast.
All,
I've use quite a few native weeds to make Teas with and it seems with all of them there are nearly instant positive results. Wondering if there might be a listing of what NOT to use as it seems it would be a much shorter list.
Also, considering that silica is the most abundant element on the planet and it is what makes quite a few toxic plants toxic (vetches and nettles comes to mind), could those plants be used in leu of the silica products or is the silica locked up inside the plant tissues, unavailable until it's been broken down?
- Status
