lights turned off???....ballasts still on???

[joe fresh]

I'm more comfortable with PanamaRed's pre-diagnosis of this situation. It makes total sense that the relays are not receiving the power needed to complete the switch. On a factory floor we will have lines dedicated to multiple feeds causing multiple lights to remain on with alternate power sources (Different Feeds).

Here we are connected to a single segment which the OP stated the wires are bone cold. "Service Sags are way more less likely then a service spike which is really common. This will cause the breakers to flip with the excess from the service entrance.

To be quite honest I am REALLY impressed by the electrical job that was performed Joe Fresh. Would it be possible to take a few more pictures of your electrical panel with the relays. Are you using one timer? You see I assume that the timer shuts the ballasts prior to flipping for fire safety. Being that the ballasts are off prior to the flip (at least I assume again) then it makes total sense that the flip happens on the (DC)circuit side. Since the DC side is isolated from your (AC) power. I think you can perform the test safely as PanamaRed suggested with a Multimeter. I would leave the (DC) power feeding the transformer your using for the relay but I WOULD COMPLETELY SHUT THE 240 LINE FEEDING THE LIGHTS BEFORE PERFORMING THE TEST. YOU ARE JUST TESTING THE FLIP ACTION WHICH IS (DC) BASED. WE KNOW THE 240 IS ROCK SOLID.

Obviously the setup has worked well for some time . Its a really SWEET setup! Just remember relays should generally be replaced EVERY 2 YEARS!! Good luck and please check back .

ill get some pics up soon.....but to answer your question....

from what i know---ballasts are wired directly to the breakers of sub-pannel(which is powered by 6 awg wire), ballasts are then wired to relays, and only one timer is used to flip the relays.

the ballasts stay on 24:7...they never turn off unless i turn the sub-pannel off.....so ballasts are running 24:7 and when timer switches it just flips the relays from one room to the other, never interupting the ballasts.

 

[rives]

I would think that if those power relays were chattering, it would have gotten your attention if you were anywhere close. To check and see if you have a loose connection, you could try gently manipulating the coil wires while the relays are energized. Keep your fingers back from the Sta-Kon connectors, and lightly wiggle the wire. It might be a good idea to have a wire nut close at hand in case you pull a hot wire out of the connector. You can then twist it onto the wire until you can de-energize the circuit and make repairs. If you have someone to help you, if you wind up juggling hot wires, have them kill the timer circuit driving the relays. This could be done with the ballasts off if you are more comfortable doing it that way.

 

[Tactician]

Exactly what Avenger said. Looks like cheap wire strippers used to crimp the wires, should use a ratchet crimper. The NMD is only rated for 300V, you might want to to switch to 600V SOOW that's stranded.

I would also check to see if the coil voltage is 24VAC for all the relays, maybe a couple 120V or 24VDC relays were are being used.

crimp on connectors and solid wire = intermittent shorts

the one light that stayed on was probably the upper left relay, number one in series.

 

[joe fresh]

heres a few pics of my electric work


and yeah now that i think about it i think i heard some relay clatter when the lights went out and thats what made me look to see if the lights were ok, then thats when i seen the lights out and went to check the breakers and flipped them off then on.

 

[SumDumGuy]

heres a few pics of my electric work


and yeah now that i think about it i think i heard some relay clatter when the lights went out and thats what made me look to see if the lights were ok, then thats when i seen the lights out and went to check the breakers and flipped them off then on.

I LOVE IT!! Fucking Electrical Porn

Bro one thing here rubbed me wrong. Check this.

 

[joe fresh]

cool man, i will, like i said i had an electrician hook this up for me, he is a friend of my cousin and i believe he works for the hydro company but im not sure

 

[Dirty Harry]

I LOVE IT!! Fucking Electrical Porn

Bro one thing here rubbed me wrong. Check this.

Yes, what was stated in the pic. Some breakers do not completely throw but only move 1/4 to half way. If the breaker switch is held in place when it blows, most pop loose from the switch and will open the circuit if the switch was able to move or not.
NOT GOOD ON 240V equipment that is being fed 120V.

 

[HydroJen]

Great thread. So much info to consider...

 

[Tilt]

I hate to say this. If I showed these pictures to an electrical inspector. I would have to make sure their was a defibulator on sight. The guy would freak the eff out and start writing violation after violation. All of those relays and ballasts need to go in a enclosure. at least hang a automatic fire extinguisher above them. Just seeing these pics gives me the willys and I have been in a full arc flash suit inside a live switch gear.

 

[rives]

If I showed these pictures to an electrical inspector. I would have to make sure their was a defibulator on sight.

Glad you showed up, Tilt! I was starting to feel like I had been raining negativity on people all day for their choice of materials and workmanship (different thread). The message needs to get out that if people are going to do a commercial-level grow, the infrastructure needs to be the same level. Code should be a minimum, and electrical panels shouldn't look like the underside of your '57 Chevy's dashboard after installing a stereo and a bunch of non-functional gauges. Electrical porn indeed.

 

[joe fresh]

well i plan to get some automatic fire extinguisher , 2 infact, one on top the relays and one on top the ballasts, each cover 7 square feet....

but that aside what can i use as a cover for the ballasts and the relays?

would making an asbestos enclosure be ok? how should i go about this?

(you guys def know more than me here in the electrical department, so any insight is great)

 

[rives]

Without a complete redo, I think that if you built some plywood cabinetry over the components with some automatic fire suppression, a shunt-operated main breaker that is tripped with the fire system, and dressing out the wiring so that it doesn't grab anybody walking by would be a good start. For any systems in the future, keep in mind that the fundamental reason for grounding is to make the circuit protection work. When components fail, they either fail open or shorted. If they fail open, no problem. If they fail shorted, they can generate intense heat until either the breaker (or fuse) opens, or until they burn themselves open. An unbelievable amount of damage can be done without drawing more current than the 15 or 20 amps that the breaker is rated for, particularly when you take into account that they will open based on a time/current curve. It can take a long time for a breaker to open if you aren't drawing substantially more power than it is rated for. This is where the grounding comes in. If the component that is shorting starts conducting to ground, the fault current rises instantly, tripping the breaker. With your components mounted on a wooden back plate, the device can catch any nearby combustible on fire (including what it is mounted on), and continue burning until it either burns itself open or the current rises sufficiently for long enough to open the protection.

For future applications, Romex is not really the most appropriate wire to use for the secondary on the ballasts (the conductor between the ballast and the lamp). SO cord or some single-conductor 600v rated wire (THHN would be my choice) would be better. If you use the single conductor wire, it should be in conduit or flex to the termination point in an enclosure where you would make the transition to cord feeding your lamps.

I'm sure that I am overlooking something since my coffee hasn't completely kicked in yet. Tilt, Panama, Stagehand or another electrician, please feel free to jump in.

 

[SumDumGuy]

I do agree that running 10K at ANY given time would certainly require being up to NEC code at the very least. A lot of thought was put into this setup and I do think it should be tightened up a bit. Though these aren't category 5 network cables here that can be tied up quickly. You will need an electrician to help you out and it may get costly. Though messy and with the exception of the rigged breaker - the system looks solid. These are upgrades you can add as you go but rives makes a really strong point! If you have the money then do as he suggested. If not then at the very least determine the faulty relays and replace them or simply replace all the relays in a sweep. What are the model number info for the relays?

 

[joe fresh]

unbelievable valuble info here guys, much apreciated, this migh be the thread where i go the most help and knowledge, everyone knows what their talking about and no ones a dick, awsome, lol


well i plan to move out in june, so for the time being, whats the best quick fix?

replace all relays, replace breaker, enclose ballasts and relays with something fireproof(i dont know what material would be best), and auto fire extinguishers......anything else?

 

[rives]

unbelievable valuble info here guys, much apreciated, this migh be the thread where i go the most help and knowledge, everyone knows what their talking about and no ones a dick, awsome, lol


well i plan to move out in june, so for the time being, whats the best quick fix?

replace all relays, replace breaker, enclose ballasts and relays with something fireproof(i dont know what material would be best), and auto fire extinguishers......anything else?

Personally, I doubt that the relays need replacing if they are only a few months old. With the open style contacts on them, you can check for pitting that will occur prior to sticking or welding. Look up their spec on the net, most relays are good for at least 100,000 full load activations. You are only flopping every 12 hours at most, so that is a long time that they should work properly. As for enclosing them, metal is always best because of the grounding issue.

 

[Panama Red]

At the very least, 2 things.

1) Get a double throw 15A to replace that jury-rigged pair that's twisted together with wire.

2) Wire the control voltage to the relays correctly, in parallel instead of in series as they are now.

 

[Tilt]

If you are stuck with what you got. There are some things you can do to make your electrical safer.
1. auto fire extinguisher
2. drip gutter above your panel and ballasts because having water lines and ventilation ducts above exposed electrical is bad (mixed sytems)
3. lexan with stand offs over your relays and ballasts to prevent inadvertant contact with a live equipment
3. pigtail out the control voltage to your relays.
4. (Im against this) I cant tell but your relays and ballasts should be mounted on FIRE RATED 3/4" plywood
5.The bundling of your romex is not good. When that many wires are bundled together it can cause heat that reduces the ampacity of the wires (vicious circle)
6. Dont support romex with water lines ( maintain seperation )
7. with the power off cleanly & carfully staple the sheathed portion of the romex to the plywood
8. get some panel blanks for the empty breaker spaces
9. (optional but good idea)get the ballasts on a timer so the ballasts are off when the relays flip. This prevent arcing ( causing carbon buildup on the contacts) when relays activate
10. contact cleaner on the relay cotacts with a q tip ( careful contact cleaner is flamable and equipment should not energized when aplying and allow at least an hour to completly dry.

I will keep on looking but this is my suggestions so far

 

[Tilt]

1 question on your original problem. Were the coils active ( pulled in to the normally open position )? If they were not you can most likely rule out the relays.

 

[joe fresh]

1 question on your original problem. Were the coils active ( pulled in to the normally open position )? If they were not you can most likely rule out the relays.

im not sure what you mean...the coils?

if your talkin bout the relays being in the position they were supposed to be i didnt check the relays so i cant tell for sure, all i checked was the ballasts and breaker pannel......but i think i heard a noise which made me look in the room to see the lights off, but cant be sure...and here i am trying to make sure everything is ok....sooo....


few things i dont quite under stand, maybe a little clarifying?

2) Wire the control voltage to the relays correctly, in parallel instead of in series as they are now.

2. drip gutter above your panel and ballasts because having water lines and ventilation ducts above exposed electrical is bad (mixed sytems)

3. pigtail out the control voltage to your relays.

3. lexan with stand offs over your relays and ballasts to prevent inadvertant contact with a live equipment

any explanation on these materials or how to go about what ive listed above(i feel like a stoner in high school that doesnt understand, lol)

thx for all the help guys, really apreciated

 

[joe fresh]

well....i was just thinking....and im sure ill get cock slapped by all you electricians for not mentioning this sooner, but it just hit me....


i was dealing with the "crappy breaker" that i was told is a nono, for now since i was not using all ballasts i figured id just flip the copper wire breaker off since it was only suporting 2 ballasts....

but heres what i JUST thaught about....

all 10 ballasts were plugged, and to "lower consumption" for the past while i would just unscrew the bulbs from the reflectors instead of turning off the breakers, so essentially the 10 ballasts were still running even tho i had only 7 or 8 lights screwed in....

so essentially with 10 ballasts and a 15.6 amp a\c running, i think i was a bit over load....not sure but i am sure the "me unscrewing the bulbs" only was a big nono and i just realized it now....


so i plan to remove the 2 ballasts im not using and have already flipped "crappy breaker" off and removed hoods from room and put wire nuts on end of wire for safety even tho the breakers for those ballasts are off