MickTheBrag
Active member
flush once every 2 weeks during flowering.
Let's define "flushing" once-and-for-all.
- Thread starter Crazy Composer
- Start date
C
CT Guy
I'm with what Tony's posted on this one.
Plants know when to die... but they will stay green for an awful long time under the influence of excess Nitrogen. All you need to do is look around this site for pictures of FULLY ripened pot, with FULLY green leaves to see this is true.
Lime isn't the only mineral in caves, flushed from the surface. The point remains... dissolved salts/minerals inevitably get flushed from the surface of the soil. It's a healthy, natural process. No?
Lime isn't the only mineral in caves, flushed from the surface. The point remains... dissolved salts/minerals inevitably get flushed from the surface of the soil. It's a healthy, natural process. No?
U
unthing
Hi
Interesting topic for sure. I always thought that people mean by flushing their plants that they're starving them from nutrients for the few remaining weeks turning leafs yellow or purple depending on the particular strain.
I knew that this word was also used for excessive flooding of the growing medium for washing salts, but doubted that no one did that unless there was toxic levels to be washed away as a last resort.
Interesting topic for sure. I always thought that people mean by flushing their plants that they're starving them from nutrients for the few remaining weeks turning leafs yellow or purple depending on the particular strain.
I knew that this word was also used for excessive flooding of the growing medium for washing salts, but doubted that no one did that unless there was toxic levels to be washed away as a last resort.
My votes go with what Jay said and "Tony the plants do know it's time to die because they evolved over millions of years to know when their time is up"
Supposing I mixed some soil, peat and compost [and/or vermicompost] with a little rock dust, kelp and alfalfa meal (minor amounts) {minimum 5 gal. per plant}. Throughout the life of the plant I may apply some 'real' compost tea but mostly only {chlorine free} water. During flowering phase the leaves turn yellow as a natural process. In this scenario there is no need to flush. All microbially released ionic nutrients will have been consumed by the plant or clean-up microbes. The major players in the microbial nutrient cycling business will have encysted or otherwise sought dormancy. They will remain thus until they receive carbon and molecular messages from the plant to get busy.
OR
If I similarly plant in some commercial 'organic' media and pour in 'organic' nutrient juice, besides having second thoughts about the organicness of these nutrients, I might be concerned about the potential for having imparted ionic nutrients (salts) to the soli. In this case perhaps a good flush may be called for.
MaryJane: If you are reading, nice try but they ended up crushed.
Supposing I mixed some soil, peat and compost [and/or vermicompost] with a little rock dust, kelp and alfalfa meal (minor amounts) {minimum 5 gal. per plant}. Throughout the life of the plant I may apply some 'real' compost tea but mostly only {chlorine free} water. During flowering phase the leaves turn yellow as a natural process. In this scenario there is no need to flush. All microbially released ionic nutrients will have been consumed by the plant or clean-up microbes. The major players in the microbial nutrient cycling business will have encysted or otherwise sought dormancy. They will remain thus until they receive carbon and molecular messages from the plant to get busy.
OR
If I similarly plant in some commercial 'organic' media and pour in 'organic' nutrient juice, besides having second thoughts about the organicness of these nutrients, I might be concerned about the potential for having imparted ionic nutrients (salts) to the soli. In this case perhaps a good flush may be called for.
MaryJane: If you are reading, nice try but they ended up crushed.
chronisseur
Member
I use a Final Flush type product - as I have well water - and start that about 10 days or so before I intend to harvest, giving liberal waterings with 15-20% runoff.
ABout 8-9 days to go I stand each pot up on 2x4's over a bucket and pour excessive amounts of water w/ flush agent through. drain. wait at least 15min. do it again. I do this again with 4 to 5 days left also. Tho it takes a few hours each time, this makes a HUGE difference - used to just do plain water feedings the last 12-14days but no major water through and can really tell the difference big time. With a rotational/staggered harvest this is much easier on time too it just gets confusing/annopying mixing up different jugs for different plants - takes over an hour every 2or3 days.. (thats why Im automating, going to orgaincs and using plain water with only 2-3 teas the entire cycle!)
The last 2 waterings I purchase RO water and do not water the last day or two, followed by another day (once mostly dried out but not wilting) in the dark prior to chop. By then it is dried right out and everything is used up - plus being in the dark anything still left is currenhtly down in the rootzone..
By the way I use a 3-part nutrient and bloom boosters, carbo loads, superthrive, heavy weight/molasses, h202... I will use h202 up to the 2nd big rinse and may use some molasses for one or two waterings after I have stopped everything else (stop everything by first big rinse regardless). Ive noticed after 12-14days of flush if you dont chop and/or had started too early (I started flush too early once) they def notice and kind of stall out on you as there is nothing much left for them at that point... a full, proper flush and good, month-long min. glass-jar cure will make even regular herb appealing and at its full potential for taste and potency. dont be greedy - give your ladies at LEAST a week after you stop the nutes.. and try to trim it properly! then cure as much of it as long as you can.
Im about to go organic and there ARENT salts to buildup in organics.. ITs good not to give teas etc or anything too late - and using just plain water for the last while.. but there is not much you can do or need to do to "flush"... Keeping it moist the last few days makes sense actually to keep the microlife in stasis, although dry air/soil = more resin!
The plants feed off the microbeast's enzymes anyways, not the micros themselves, so really nothing short or a full hydroponic/aeroponic transplant and straight RO water soak would remove the beasties, their by-products (plants food), and the beasts food source (organic amendments)... It could just make sense to just use a heavy doze of H202 to zap the entire micro-population dead before a week of RO watering in which case there would be no new enzymes or anything for the plants to uptake regardless of dryness... if the conditions for the micros starting to come alive were present for the last few hours right at harvest (dried out medium) that would be ok as they would not have had time to produce any wastes yet anyways - or re-zap em!.. Have not tried this but seems logical if u want to kill of your microherds prior to harvest? H202 is safe is it not? Just turns to water with the 0 molecule binding with anything avail (ususally micro-life, root rot etc) and killing it if its alive?
ABout 8-9 days to go I stand each pot up on 2x4's over a bucket and pour excessive amounts of water w/ flush agent through. drain. wait at least 15min. do it again. I do this again with 4 to 5 days left also. Tho it takes a few hours each time, this makes a HUGE difference - used to just do plain water feedings the last 12-14days but no major water through and can really tell the difference big time. With a rotational/staggered harvest this is much easier on time too it just gets confusing/annopying mixing up different jugs for different plants - takes over an hour every 2or3 days.. (thats why Im automating, going to orgaincs and using plain water with only 2-3 teas the entire cycle!)
The last 2 waterings I purchase RO water and do not water the last day or two, followed by another day (once mostly dried out but not wilting) in the dark prior to chop. By then it is dried right out and everything is used up - plus being in the dark anything still left is currenhtly down in the rootzone..
By the way I use a 3-part nutrient and bloom boosters, carbo loads, superthrive, heavy weight/molasses, h202... I will use h202 up to the 2nd big rinse and may use some molasses for one or two waterings after I have stopped everything else (stop everything by first big rinse regardless). Ive noticed after 12-14days of flush if you dont chop and/or had started too early (I started flush too early once) they def notice and kind of stall out on you as there is nothing much left for them at that point... a full, proper flush and good, month-long min. glass-jar cure will make even regular herb appealing and at its full potential for taste and potency. dont be greedy - give your ladies at LEAST a week after you stop the nutes.. and try to trim it properly! then cure as much of it as long as you can.
Im about to go organic and there ARENT salts to buildup in organics.. ITs good not to give teas etc or anything too late - and using just plain water for the last while.. but there is not much you can do or need to do to "flush"... Keeping it moist the last few days makes sense actually to keep the microlife in stasis, although dry air/soil = more resin!
The plants feed off the microbeast's enzymes anyways, not the micros themselves, so really nothing short or a full hydroponic/aeroponic transplant and straight RO water soak would remove the beasties, their by-products (plants food), and the beasts food source (organic amendments)... It could just make sense to just use a heavy doze of H202 to zap the entire micro-population dead before a week of RO watering in which case there would be no new enzymes or anything for the plants to uptake regardless of dryness... if the conditions for the micros starting to come alive were present for the last few hours right at harvest (dried out medium) that would be ok as they would not have had time to produce any wastes yet anyways - or re-zap em!.. Have not tried this but seems logical if u want to kill of your microherds prior to harvest? H202 is safe is it not? Just turns to water with the 0 molecule binding with anything avail (ususally micro-life, root rot etc) and killing it if its alive?
Organi-class
Member
Good subject CC.
As a organic advocate as well, i feel that in the sense of how we "flush" it is a bit misleading. "Flushing" in theory is "feeding plants without food". The hydro guys use massive amounts of water, where the majority of organic guys do not use excess water, just plain water for a period of time before chop down. A good idea to understand this is to think that at the final 2 weeks, your plants are going on a nice raw diet. Time to ripen and get lean. We are all in essence doing the very same thing to get good results(withholding food), just as each is individual, everyone does it a bit different.
As a organic advocate as well, i feel that in the sense of how we "flush" it is a bit misleading. "Flushing" in theory is "feeding plants without food". The hydro guys use massive amounts of water, where the majority of organic guys do not use excess water, just plain water for a period of time before chop down. A good idea to understand this is to think that at the final 2 weeks, your plants are going on a nice raw diet. Time to ripen and get lean. We are all in essence doing the very same thing to get good results(withholding food), just as each is individual, everyone does it a bit different.
Well, after speaking with a friend recently, and I will have him come in and share his trial experience, which I will also try myself, seeing how we do use different base nutrients...
He was a "flusher" as described by CC in his original post. Has always had great results. This time, he tried something new...absolutely ZERO water within the last 5 days...nothing. He said the leaves yellowed/colored very quickly, and began to respond exactly as if being flushed. Said it even translated to a slightly better drying time as well...
Interesting...what would you call this "drought" method?
I think CC has properly described what should by all standards define a "flush". I think others have described a "drowing" method, where the herd is suffocated my water, and therefore rendered inactive, forcing the plant to uptake it's own sugars...and also, some seem to use a "scheduled starve" where exactly or close the the necessary nutrients are left in the soil for uptake in the first place, forcing the plant to retreat to its reserves....
All of these sound very logical and make sense in their own right. However, what I have to wonder...is what method can be used to remove excess sugars, but maintain a minimal amount of stress on the plant itself. ALTHOUGH, some believe a touch of added stress in the last week or two of flower can force a plant to "protect" itself and produce more resin glands. If this theory was to be tested, it would be logical the most stressful method of forcing a plant to consume reserve sugars, would produce the best bud....
WOW...I think we need a couple of side by side comparisons...
I will say this as well...a plant does know when it is coming to the end of it's life in NATURE. It can tell by the spectrum of the sun, the temperature of the air/soil...nutrients available in the soil....all these things affect the chemicals being produced within the plant, and control it's life cycle. Just as the fall sun grows redder, the white hairs stretch out longer...grasping desperately for a bit of pollen to preserve itself for another generation....white hairs....longer...longer...because the plant is aware death is near.
Sorry..I know, FOCUS....
dank.Frank
He was a "flusher" as described by CC in his original post. Has always had great results. This time, he tried something new...absolutely ZERO water within the last 5 days...nothing. He said the leaves yellowed/colored very quickly, and began to respond exactly as if being flushed. Said it even translated to a slightly better drying time as well...
Interesting...what would you call this "drought" method?
I think CC has properly described what should by all standards define a "flush". I think others have described a "drowing" method, where the herd is suffocated my water, and therefore rendered inactive, forcing the plant to uptake it's own sugars...and also, some seem to use a "scheduled starve" where exactly or close the the necessary nutrients are left in the soil for uptake in the first place, forcing the plant to retreat to its reserves....
All of these sound very logical and make sense in their own right. However, what I have to wonder...is what method can be used to remove excess sugars, but maintain a minimal amount of stress on the plant itself. ALTHOUGH, some believe a touch of added stress in the last week or two of flower can force a plant to "protect" itself and produce more resin glands. If this theory was to be tested, it would be logical the most stressful method of forcing a plant to consume reserve sugars, would produce the best bud....
WOW...I think we need a couple of side by side comparisons...
I will say this as well...a plant does know when it is coming to the end of it's life in NATURE. It can tell by the spectrum of the sun, the temperature of the air/soil...nutrients available in the soil....all these things affect the chemicals being produced within the plant, and control it's life cycle. Just as the fall sun grows redder, the white hairs stretch out longer...grasping desperately for a bit of pollen to preserve itself for another generation....white hairs....longer...longer...because the plant is aware death is near.
Sorry..I know, FOCUS....
dank.Frank
Castelvetro
Member
i think its important to flush with ph'd water, that way u keep things in solution and dont cause lock out and think your flushing when your just stalling. interesting how long u organic growers flush for, but then again there is more nutrition in dirt then hydro so i guess it makes sense-
Trichgnomes
Member
Pretty much sums it up, IMO. If one is growing plants from an ecological perspective, i.e. mimicking nature via microbial nutrient cycling, with the application of mineral rock dusts, ACT, EM, etc., what could one possibly be 'flushing?'
Personally i have found my plants take up way less water in their last couple of weeks... this may be strain related... i have given them a flush with good runoff before harvest but they didnt like it! Leaves became droopy, buds softened and had a more damp/dank smell. Took way longer to dry and cure with no benefits!
Now i let em use up their goodness in the soil say in week 6 of 8 week cycle... then let em use their reserves in the leaves. If i wanna flush i would do it week 5 or 6. But then i grow mostly in a mix of coco, soil and perlite. With much less soil than coco... this dries faster and drains better. I defo dont recommend a flush in last 36 - 24 hours in soil!!! Asking for mould and soggy bud.
So to reiterate... i have had WAY more probs with soil being too wet vs too dry.
The best way to grow i have found (indoors) is to use the bio box (obbt) method. This way you let the medium dry right out in the last week or two and watch the leaves turn brown and crispy but leaving sweet, sticky and nicely cured bud from the minute you chop!
Now i let em use up their goodness in the soil say in week 6 of 8 week cycle... then let em use their reserves in the leaves. If i wanna flush i would do it week 5 or 6. But then i grow mostly in a mix of coco, soil and perlite. With much less soil than coco... this dries faster and drains better. I defo dont recommend a flush in last 36 - 24 hours in soil!!! Asking for mould and soggy bud.
So to reiterate... i have had WAY more probs with soil being too wet vs too dry.
The best way to grow i have found (indoors) is to use the bio box (obbt) method. This way you let the medium dry right out in the last week or two and watch the leaves turn brown and crispy but leaving sweet, sticky and nicely cured bud from the minute you chop!
Z
Zeinth
Nadp transfer is never completed till the plant is fully dead.
even then.. chlorophill and many other compounds that inorganic acids are present..... it takes time to change in chemical structure.
stopping photosysnthesis....and the production of plant secretions.
Iam going to use house an garden drip clean an r.o water for a week..then after 4 days of dark period ....chop.
verses..a standard of 2 week r.o flush and chop.
even then.. chlorophill and many other compounds that inorganic acids are present..... it takes time to change in chemical structure.
stopping photosysnthesis....and the production of plant secretions.
Iam going to use house an garden drip clean an r.o water for a week..then after 4 days of dark period ....chop.
verses..a standard of 2 week r.o flush and chop.
V
vonforne
I will have to follow what JK has said. There are too many variables to consider and apply the term `flush`.
BTW at this current time the only thing I ´Flush`is the toilet. I am currently growing in 100 liter grow beds that is a living soil and there is no reason to flush true organics. In pseudo organics there is a reason to ´Flush`but not in true organics. And that is another term that should not be used to widely. I believe that should be the next highlighted subject up for discussion. Along with the word `flush`it covers too great of an area with too many variables to consider. In which the result is heated and non productive arguments.
Now, since the subject was brought up by yourself in this thread about Mother Earth flushing herself and forming stalactites with in the caves is ......well stretching it a bit. One of those ´Blanket`terms used. Now you are aware that that these are formed only in limestone caves due to the high ratio of calcium carbonate. Other minerals to a lesser extent. Most of these types of caves are only located in Texas. And the forming of stalactites is the chemical reaction of acid rainwater, carbon dioxide and limestone.
In a sense ME does ´flush´` herself but not in the sense you have applied earlier in this thread.
V
BTW at this current time the only thing I ´Flush`is the toilet. I am currently growing in 100 liter grow beds that is a living soil and there is no reason to flush true organics. In pseudo organics there is a reason to ´Flush`but not in true organics. And that is another term that should not be used to widely. I believe that should be the next highlighted subject up for discussion. Along with the word `flush`it covers too great of an area with too many variables to consider. In which the result is heated and non productive arguments.
Now, since the subject was brought up by yourself in this thread about Mother Earth flushing herself and forming stalactites with in the caves is ......well stretching it a bit. One of those ´Blanket`terms used. Now you are aware that that these are formed only in limestone caves due to the high ratio of calcium carbonate. Other minerals to a lesser extent. Most of these types of caves are only located in Texas. And the forming of stalactites is the chemical reaction of acid rainwater, carbon dioxide and limestone.
In a sense ME does ´flush´` herself but not in the sense you have applied earlier in this thread.
V
So, what DOES happen when dissolved salts and minerals are picked up by rain water and moved into the earth? You seem to know this, I want to know, too. 
I always thought that when it does rain a lot, that some or most water becomes ground water were it continually gets recharges and flows to make springs, rivers, wet lands ,streams, excreta. People use this groundwater to make wells/reservoirs and drink/water crops with.
its likely that much of the Earth's subsurface contains some water, I believe twenty percent of the world's fresh water supply is from ground water.so I wouldn’t consider lots of rain a flush (of water soluble nutrients) but more like another way for earth to cycle water. I also think that most natural fertile soils have most of the required nutrients in stable forms, such as life(microbes) or helped and stored by soil life/structer and humus. So does mother earth flush?? If that’s what you want to call it, in my opinion,she just recycles her water and nutrients better then most can or would like to understand..microbes I believe are natures natural cleaning system not water
its likely that much of the Earth's subsurface contains some water, I believe twenty percent of the world's fresh water supply is from ground water.so I wouldn’t consider lots of rain a flush (of water soluble nutrients) but more like another way for earth to cycle water. I also think that most natural fertile soils have most of the required nutrients in stable forms, such as life(microbes) or helped and stored by soil life/structer and humus. So does mother earth flush?? If that’s what you want to call it, in my opinion,she just recycles her water and nutrients better then most can or would like to understand..microbes I believe are natures natural cleaning system not water
^ right... but think about it... we are talking about pot plants. A pot plant's root system only goes so deep. So, when dissolved salts and minerals are washed down, beyond the reach of the root system, those salts are, in fact, no longer available to the plant. Not all nutrient is locked in the microherd, of course, otherwise run-off from soil would yield ZERO nutrient content... but of course there IS nutrient content in soil run-off... so that negates the theory that all ionic nutrient is held within microbes. So when the dissolved salts are moved beyond the reach of the root system, this is the same, exact effect as flushing a plant in a container... the dissolved salts are moved away from the reach of the root system. No?
Microbes hold nutrient... but this doesn't mean they hold all of the ionic nutrient in the medium. No? What I hear from some people in here is that organic soil needs no flushing because ALL of the ionic salts are locked up in microbes. I very respectfully, but heartily disagree with that assertion. If it were true that all the ionic salts were locked in microbes, then you would not be able to get any measurable salts from water run through organic soil. Since there are measurable salts in organic soil run-off.. it's pretty safe to assume that not all salts are locked in microbes. No?
I'm both trying to understand your point-of-view and trying to make you understand ours. This is talking shop, it's constructive as long as people don't take it personally... keep this in mind.
A pot plant's root system only goes so deep. So, when dissolved salts and minerals are washed down, beyond the reach of the root system, those salts are, in fact, no longer available to the plant. Not all nutrient is locked in the microherd, of course, otherwise run-off from soil would yield ZERO nutrient content... but of course there IS nutrient content in soil run-off... so that negates the theory that all ionic nutrient is held within microbes. So when the dissolved salts are moved beyond the reach of the root system, this is the same, exact effect as flushing a plant in a container... the dissolved salts are moved away from the reach of the root system. No?Microbes hold nutrient... but this doesn't mean they hold all of the ionic nutrient in the medium. No? What I hear from some people in here is that organic soil needs no flushing because ALL of the ionic salts are locked up in microbes. I very respectfully, but heartily disagree with that assertion. If it were true that all the ionic salts were locked in microbes, then you would not be able to get any measurable salts from water run through organic soil. Since there are measurable salts in organic soil run-off.. it's pretty safe to assume that not all salts are locked in microbes. No?
I'm both trying to understand your point-of-view and trying to make you understand ours. This is talking shop, it's constructive as long as people don't take it personally... keep this in mind.
J
*Journeyman*
Also agree with what Jay said and will add that microbe activity in the rhizosphere is regulated by plant exudates which the plant changes through it's life cycle so when it comes time to kick the bucket I don't think the plant would be emitting certain exudes that are basically 'asking' the microlife for certain foods to be processed from the soil.
While some bottled nutrients may be organic, or what some people think is organic it's not what I would consider organic growing. Like Microbeman said there's potentially some components that are really salts. One problem that may arise is when people pour on a product that contains fulvic acid late in the flowering cycle there would be a tendency for the plant to take up things it normally wouldn't. But this thread is not about 'what is organic growing' but bottle feeding can be an issue affecting finished product quality. Bottle feeding can also kind of circumvent the natural activity of soil bacteria and fungi in their role of feeding the plant.
J
*Journeyman*
I think it partly has to do with the source of these materials. If the runoff comes from conventional farming then it would cause a problem. The fertilizers used are highly soluble and so are the mineral forms typically used. Minerals coming from natural sources like streams, etc. should not be an issue. They first need to be processed by soil fungi and bacteria.
I've always thought about distilled water falling from the sky as a flushing action but have since changed my mind. Nature does not need to flush the soil every year and there is no toxic buildup of anything. There's nothing bad or detrimental to flush out.
There are organic and inorganic forms of things like arsenic for example. Inorganic arsenic is bad while organic arsenic is actually necessary. In one study when arsenic was removed from a rats diet they got sick. The flipside to that is if the rats were fed inorganic arsenic they would get sick and continued intake would kill them. The form that a compound is in is very important.
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