@Phychotron.....delicious looking specimens!!!
LED to replace HPS, need real answers
- Thread starter gnarly
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@Phychotron.....delicious looking specimens!!!
imo, the debate of hid vs led is short-sighted.
it all really depends on what you need, not really what you want.
for example, if a hid grower is having troubles with heat, then led is the answer.
or if a hid grower wants to save a couple hundred watts in electric usage, also led is the answer.
the black dog led platinum xl covers a 4x4 area for flowering, using only 750 watts at the wall. and if you are a good grower, you can pull 2 pounds with 750 watts of good led technology.
bear in mind that growing under led, hid, florescent, induction, plasma or outdoors, many variables change, such as: frequency and amount of irrigation, nute programs, cultivars, etc...
expecting that you can switch to led from hid and not have to adjust said variables is extremely naive, just as if you were to go from indoors to outdoors without considering the variables.
and as Phychotron said, there are many led lamps that can cover 4x4 efficiently if you use more than just one fixture.
the cons of led is that it is pretty expensive, imo at least, and that if you are growing in cold places, it won't produce enough heat to keep your ladies warm.
another advantage of led is that it is pretty much plug and play, you can daisy chain many units using only one plug and timer, and they seem safer than hid to use in enclosed spaces.
if we really look at this objectively and pragmatically, there's really no debate on led vs hid; each has their use and both perform well.
The Sun is the perpetual winner in any light-source competition anyway. so if all you want is efficiency and good price, the Sun can't be beat, wether led or hid, such light sources are merely kid's toys compared to the Sun.
peace
it all really depends on what you need, not really what you want.
for example, if a hid grower is having troubles with heat, then led is the answer.
or if a hid grower wants to save a couple hundred watts in electric usage, also led is the answer.
the black dog led platinum xl covers a 4x4 area for flowering, using only 750 watts at the wall. and if you are a good grower, you can pull 2 pounds with 750 watts of good led technology.
bear in mind that growing under led, hid, florescent, induction, plasma or outdoors, many variables change, such as: frequency and amount of irrigation, nute programs, cultivars, etc...
expecting that you can switch to led from hid and not have to adjust said variables is extremely naive, just as if you were to go from indoors to outdoors without considering the variables.
and as Phychotron said, there are many led lamps that can cover 4x4 efficiently if you use more than just one fixture.
the cons of led is that it is pretty expensive, imo at least, and that if you are growing in cold places, it won't produce enough heat to keep your ladies warm.
another advantage of led is that it is pretty much plug and play, you can daisy chain many units using only one plug and timer, and they seem safer than hid to use in enclosed spaces.
if we really look at this objectively and pragmatically, there's really no debate on led vs hid; each has their use and both perform well.
The Sun is the perpetual winner in any light-source competition anyway. so if all you want is efficiency and good price, the Sun can't be beat, wether led or hid, such light sources are merely kid's toys compared to the Sun.
peace
MrRobbyRob
New member
So I have used a 600w HPS, a 400w CMH, a VHO T5 fixture (8 bulbs at like 95w ea.) as well as a Badboy 6 bulb T5, and I am now rocking an A-51 panel and a Lumigrow 650. I've never used 1000w, but I will say that my 650 gives me results slightly better than my 600 hps (quantum ballast, supersun 2 hood) and I don't have any of the heat issues. It certainly puts off some heat, but out the top mostly, and easily vented away. 4 x 4 coverage is really pushing it, though... And 3x3 may be too small. Best suited for a 1mx1m.
How about telling us what you are yielding. That is important info. Anyone getting more than a gpw? Are the yields that bad that you cant even state them? My point is that if they are more efficient than HPS, and Im getting a little over a gpw, are you guys getting a lot over those numbers? Air conditioning isnt always need when running HPS, so to say LED is efficient because you dont have to run an AC is wrong. Its all about gram per watts used. I can agree that we would have to add ventilation into the equation but it would have to match on both sides. You would compare a 1000 HPS with 1000 watt LED. The funny thing is though, that a lot of times just 1 HPS doesnt need to be vented unless its a tent. So in reality its all about gpw. Even though I get a gram per watt now with HPS, I still see room for improvement where weight could increase. If most of you LED guys dont get at least a gpw and you are talking about efficiency, it doesnt make sense. Now if you are getting a gram per watt or more and didnt do that with HPS, maybe you didnt know how to maximize your conditions. It seems like LED grows would be slightly different because of the difference in light penetration if you compare 1000 watt HPS to 1000 watt LED.
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MrRobbyRob
New member
GPW is sort of a farce... How long is one vegging? Are they pushing their space to its maximum potential? Running a high yielding strain? Have they run his strain before? For me, I just pulled approx. 4 oz off a Delicious Cotton Candy, vegged in soil for about 5 weeks from seed... Have a Samsara Crazy Miss Hyde that about ready to be harvested, slightly less veg time, slightly smaller pot, will probably give me about 3 oz. But I run perpetual, so how do I determine GPW? Sorry not the answers your looking for, but don't get too caught up on grams per watt...
MrRobbyRob
New member
And by the way, a watt IS a watt, regardless of whether it comes from A/c or lighting. I am a husband and father, so the choice to use LED was not based solely on getting the highest yields. Frankly, superheated plasma in a tent in my bedroom was a bit worrisome, and I absolutely hated the ugly yellow light. I've just stated that my yields were slightly better than with my 600w, and I can assure you I am fairly seasoned. Do I think it was worth it to spend what I did on my LED's? If yield was my only concern, then my answer would be no. But with the other factors I just stated, I'm am happy with my purchase...
Phychotron
Member
I don't really follow gpw, but i think it was around .7-.8 last i checked. I've got some serious garden overhaul to do and need to swap out some lights and hopefully get that up .2 or 3.
Your Genetics will have more to do with bud structure and size, I am sure you could grow the same bud under a hid HPS and it would have yielded more plus the essential oil profile would be mor complex.
No doubt LED coupled with some winner genetics can produce, however, the blazing light that comes from the HPS has more complete light that gives you the weight, the complex essential oil profile, and finally the weight.
I can show a G13 bud grown under an LED, often times you won't get the same results as HID, and I mean HID always wins in a GPW instance.
Not to say LED buds are bad, they are different, they have a unique place.
I think once you start seeing people enter LED grown crops into competition's, you may see some strains that will do well with LED alone.
Have to leave room for evolution.
Peace
price is only thing keeping me from trying it. I would at a minimum need to replace 6,600s for one of my small grows,. . and I don't see led having any advantage over hps in small bush growing. but for sog or scrog prob be closer gpw wise. I hate training and real high plant numbers.
grams per watt is really a very subjective issue.
as mentioned above, calculating veg time into the equation needs to be done to get better answers.
not only that, but when is the harvest weighted? before or after cure?
how much of the plant is weighted? does it include pop-corn bud? leaf? how well manicured was the harvest? seeded or not? how much stem was left on the bigger buds?
quality of the bud is also related to how well a plant was fed... the consensus among connoisseurs is that a lightly fed herb is always superior in terms of taste and complexity; allowing fan leaves to yellow out before harvest, etc...
however, the norm is seeing fat buds pumped with nutes with all leaves' tips burnt.
this gram per watt argument is yet another infantile argument... you can have a massive monster plant grown indoors, pumped with nutes, burnt tips all over, and compare the final cured buds to a lightly fed plant half the size grown outdoors, that was allowed to yellow out before harvest, and you'd know which is the better bud.
now we're talking quantity vs. quality; and this argument is outside the light source debate anyway...
peace
as mentioned above, calculating veg time into the equation needs to be done to get better answers.
not only that, but when is the harvest weighted? before or after cure?
how much of the plant is weighted? does it include pop-corn bud? leaf? how well manicured was the harvest? seeded or not? how much stem was left on the bigger buds?
quality of the bud is also related to how well a plant was fed... the consensus among connoisseurs is that a lightly fed herb is always superior in terms of taste and complexity; allowing fan leaves to yellow out before harvest, etc...
however, the norm is seeing fat buds pumped with nutes with all leaves' tips burnt.
this gram per watt argument is yet another infantile argument... you can have a massive monster plant grown indoors, pumped with nutes, burnt tips all over, and compare the final cured buds to a lightly fed plant half the size grown outdoors, that was allowed to yellow out before harvest, and you'd know which is the better bud.
now we're talking quantity vs. quality; and this argument is outside the light source debate anyway...
peace
When LED growers try and say a 500 watt LED will yield the same as 1000 HPS, it doesnt seem to be true. LED growers find it just as difficult to get a gram per watt but it can be done just like HPS. Put 10,000 watts of LED in a room and you will still need air conditioning. Im sure LED can grow some fine buds of good quality but yield wise, 1000 watt HPS is comparable to 1000 watt LED in experienced hands at least.
I just trimmed 1 tent in 24 hours, I have a kilo of fresh bud leaf from a 1.2 m2 tent, so theoretically I just cut off about £1000 worth of shit in my opinion from the final dry weight.
I always do this. The final product has less dust and crap in it when trimmed fresh.
My opinion of LED's is that they are suited to cabs and tents.
Grow rooms need proper white light that enables you to see the plants properly whilst working. For that reason alone LED grows are more expensive to set up regardless of other all the other factors, making the HPS grow cheaper buds compared to an LED in my opinion,
How much ££ is a led panel with an equivalent 600 watts when compared to a HPS, The HPS puts out 95,000 lumens at 6" from the plants which the LED unit when used will have to be cooled by internal fans making the grow less efficient.
I can't work round LED's they suck balls. They don't allow me to see properly or supply the heat needed for optimum growth, therefore they're shit in application of use and suited for people who only grow in tents and cabs and have never tried using a HPS.
An LED lamp is comparable to Christmas tree lights, they're only suitable for about 1 month a year. And I prefer a Holiday..
I always do this. The final product has less dust and crap in it when trimmed fresh.
My opinion of LED's is that they are suited to cabs and tents.
Grow rooms need proper white light that enables you to see the plants properly whilst working. For that reason alone LED grows are more expensive to set up regardless of other all the other factors, making the HPS grow cheaper buds compared to an LED in my opinion,
How much ££ is a led panel with an equivalent 600 watts when compared to a HPS, The HPS puts out 95,000 lumens at 6" from the plants which the LED unit when used will have to be cooled by internal fans making the grow less efficient.
I can't work round LED's they suck balls. They don't allow me to see properly or supply the heat needed for optimum growth, therefore they're shit in application of use and suited for people who only grow in tents and cabs and have never tried using a HPS.
An LED lamp is comparable to Christmas tree lights, they're only suitable for about 1 month a year. And I prefer a Holiday..
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Phychotron
Member
"Your Genetics will have more to do with bud structure and size, I am sure you could grow the same bud under a hid HPS and it would have yielded more plus the essential oil profile would be mor complex."
I'm sure genetics has a large play in it, but I've grown friends plants that they grow under HID with the same nutrients and I've always found my stuff to be much better flavor and the way the bud feels is nicer--I've had his wet stuff and dried it out myself. Its good stuff, but there is always something different about it that I don't like as much.
"They don't allow me to see properly or supply the heat needed for optimum growth"
The problem with HID is that you have all that added IR cooking the leaf. It needs to be cooler in the room to drive the heat transfer from leaf to air in order to avoid cooking the leaf. Passing mass quantities of energy through the cells.
With LED you are not passing the energy through the leaf, but out the top of the fixture as heat. The plant still needs to be in the mid-low 80's, so you put a fan in the LED exhaust zone blowing down into the canopy and slow your exhaust fan down to accommodate for a warmer temperature.
"For that reason alone LED grows are more expensive to set up regardless of other all the other factors, making the HPS grow cheaper buds compared to an LED in my opinion"
It's irrelevant to argue the cost of an HID vs LED system, its not about cost its about the quality of light source and ease of use. We all know LED more expensive.
HID has been developed over decades of trial and error and there are a lot of variables that revolve around HID, so when that one factor changes and nothing else does, HID growers are severely disappointed with the results. Its why beginners like LED because they develop all their knowledge around this light source, they don't have to un-learn or modify existing methods.
I'm sure genetics has a large play in it, but I've grown friends plants that they grow under HID with the same nutrients and I've always found my stuff to be much better flavor and the way the bud feels is nicer--I've had his wet stuff and dried it out myself. Its good stuff, but there is always something different about it that I don't like as much.
"They don't allow me to see properly or supply the heat needed for optimum growth"
The problem with HID is that you have all that added IR cooking the leaf. It needs to be cooler in the room to drive the heat transfer from leaf to air in order to avoid cooking the leaf. Passing mass quantities of energy through the cells.
With LED you are not passing the energy through the leaf, but out the top of the fixture as heat. The plant still needs to be in the mid-low 80's, so you put a fan in the LED exhaust zone blowing down into the canopy and slow your exhaust fan down to accommodate for a warmer temperature.
"For that reason alone LED grows are more expensive to set up regardless of other all the other factors, making the HPS grow cheaper buds compared to an LED in my opinion"
It's irrelevant to argue the cost of an HID vs LED system, its not about cost its about the quality of light source and ease of use. We all know LED more expensive.
HID has been developed over decades of trial and error and there are a lot of variables that revolve around HID, so when that one factor changes and nothing else does, HID growers are severely disappointed with the results. Its why beginners like LED because they develop all their knowledge around this light source, they don't have to un-learn or modify existing methods.
LED growers, the ones whose posts I read in these forums and others at least, don't claim that 500w of LED equals 1000w of HID.
The ones making similar claims as those are the manufacturers; big difference.
as far as seeing your plants under white light, just wait until white led becomes the standard, as it seems it is the direction it is taking as of now. you'll see your plants way better than under hps for sure.
btw, no one has given any answer as to what's the proper standard by which to accurately judge grams per watt, anyone?
GpKWH - Led's just don't make the cut currently with the existing technology, when 1 LED is comparable to 1 bare bulb 600w/1000w HPS then were talking Led's and not HPS, but not until then ok.
Nothing you say is worth listening to about Led's because at this moment in time they are REDUNDANT!!!! - C[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]omparable to Christmas tree lights[/FONT]
Nothing you say is worth listening to about Led's because at this moment in time they are REDUNDANT!!!! - C[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]omparable to Christmas tree lights[/FONT]
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led are already replacing hid flood lights in big warehouses... if I had money to play around, I'd buy a few of those led flood lights, all white, and see plants grow, just like with hid.
sahdgrower
Member
Seems to me and forgive me if I am ignorant in these matters but as a newbie it seems like the most obvious way to measure gpkw is to add up every watt you use from start to finish on any number of plants. Then harvest/dry/cure/weigh and divide the number of watts used by the number of grams produced. Simple no? I would venture to guess that a heads up comparison from normal growers would be bordering on impossible due to the quantity of variables, therefore the only real viable (IMO) comparison would be on a commercial scale.
However I think what has emerged as very likely to be true is that LED and HID are close enough in capability that LED is just simply more expensive at this point. No real significant added benefit has been displayed to me with evidence that is compelling. I believe in LED.... just not to save$
However I think what has emerged as very likely to be true is that LED and HID are close enough in capability that LED is just simply more expensive at this point. No real significant added benefit has been displayed to me with evidence that is compelling. I believe in LED.... just not to save$
sahdgrower, that's a reasonable way, however, there are other variables that were mentioned before that are harder to introduce in this simple formula to calculate grams per watts... extent of manicure, pop corn weighted or not?
the issue of super fed plants with burnt tips also comes into the variable... if you are getting 1 gram per watt but only by burning the tips of your plants by over-feeding to fatten up as much as can before burning the whole plant, then, one must wonder about quality, etc...
the issue of super fed plants with burnt tips also comes into the variable... if you are getting 1 gram per watt but only by burning the tips of your plants by over-feeding to fatten up as much as can before burning the whole plant, then, one must wonder about quality, etc...
Show me a Bare bulb Led grow that gets plants like Heath Robinson and can beat his GpKWH and I'll listen but you are so out your depth its funny!!
For those of you not familiar with Heath here, this is how he grows -
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=20659&pictureid=478103
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=20659&pictureid=478910
Led WTF???
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