Sure thing, unthing! I'll get on a rough draft tomorrow, probably. Today I've been busy; I also grow mushrooms and they all popped out today, so I've got my hands full, quite literally! I'll get back to you in a day or two.
Peace out,
Da.
Sure thing, unthing! I'll get on a rough draft tomorrow, probably. Today I've been busy; I also grow mushrooms and they all popped out today, so I've got my hands full, quite literally! I'll get back to you in a day or two.
Peace out,
Da.
Pepe Le Peeyoo
Member
I am figuring a design now which incorporates a mini fridge for cooling, since the UFO puts out so little heat, it would make a killer micro box. I love the LED's since it is so hot here in Mexico, but side by side comparisons of mine show HID making much bigger and quicker fruit. (prob a 20% difference)
One of my UFO's is the old fashioned ones with a ballast type box supplying the light with juice. This light stopped working, any ideas on how to repair it? And a second light just today stopped working on exactly half of itself... anyone got experience it this? On the good side, they have dropped in price by 50%.
PEACE
One of my UFO's is the old fashioned ones with a ballast type box supplying the light with juice. This light stopped working, any ideas on how to repair it? And a second light just today stopped working on exactly half of itself... anyone got experience it this? On the good side, they have dropped in price by 50%.
PEACE
U
unthing
Hi Pepe
Ufo and minifridge sounds like a hit to me, keen to see that in working condition if possible.
At least the knock offs seem to be dropping in price steadily. Saw them go at 99 sterling pounds recently. The better models are much more expensive, but don't know how much better can they be?
Ufo and minifridge sounds like a hit to me, keen to see that in working condition if possible.
At least the knock offs seem to be dropping in price steadily. Saw them go at 99 sterling pounds recently. The better models are much more expensive, but don't know how much better can they be?
Pepe Le Peeyoo
Member
:Thanks for your words unthing. But how can I tell if a ufo is a knock off? I need to know because I just got one on ebay for a buck fifty.
U
unthing
Hi Pepe
There's some discussion about the ufos in few first pages at least. You might wanna ask Weezard about them.
But I quess in theory you could measure power draw, spectral output and look if the components are no-name-ones or branded ones and so on. To my understanding the original ufo was designed by american company (hydrohut?) and then it was copied to designs of various quality. But that doesn't mean that the copies of that design can't be as good or even better (or cheaper)
There's some discussion about the ufos in few first pages at least. You might wanna ask Weezard about them.
But I quess in theory you could measure power draw, spectral output and look if the components are no-name-ones or branded ones and so on. To my understanding the original ufo was designed by american company (hydrohut?) and then it was copied to designs of various quality. But that doesn't mean that the copies of that design can't be as good or even better (or cheaper)
LeoRexTyrannus
Member
Cloner update
Cloner update
The cloner works fantastic, 15 minutes every 2 hours all day has been fantastic. I must experiment further with time ratios on another batch. I am happy to report roots with around an 80% success rate. Survivors are increasing root mass extremely quickly, estimate of which is that of doubling every day for the first three days of development.
If more foggings would up this rate Weezard advise, I will increase it.
Cloner update
The cloner works fantastic, 15 minutes every 2 hours all day has been fantastic. I must experiment further with time ratios on another batch. I am happy to report roots with around an 80% success rate. Survivors are increasing root mass extremely quickly, estimate of which is that of doubling every day for the first three days of development.
If more foggings would up this rate Weezard advise, I will increase it.
Knna, this may be correct and it's what I initially assumed, comparing the ProSource panels visually with ones from other sources like these from HTG Supply:
http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=53935
That HTG product looks quite similar to the Prosource Illuminator:
http://www.prosourceworldwide.com/product_p/illuminator pro series 350w.htm
But when I called ProSource, they said that they weren't the same technology. Specifically, they said that they were using significantly different wavelengths. I went with the technical guy to the HTG Website, b/c HTG publishes their wavelengths. This fact surprised the ProSource rep, because ProSource do not publish theirs to avoid their competition benefitting from their research.
ProSource said that (1) most other 300w-range LED panels like HTG's only use 1-watt bulbs because these are the most efficient, but that panels like these have trouble reaching lower branches, hence the decreased yield experienced by growers who use them.
(2) ProSource illuminators use a combination of 1w and 3w bulbs to achieve greater light energy densities further down along the plant below the canopy.
(3) The HTG model is actually better than other similar competing models they (ProSource) tested, but nowhere near their own results. Note: HTG themselves told me that in terms of yield, even with CO2 they only hit 50% with 300W of what they got with HID. Yes, they tested it on cannabis.
(4) the specific red and blue wavelengths they use are different from HTG's, although HTG's are "not extremely far off".
(5) They use no white LED's.
(6) They DO use orange LED's and on their website they go into the benefits of this. Again, precise wavelength unspecified.
(7) They said that their independent testers have done most of the testing on plants "like the ones you may be talking about" and that yields are literally on par with HID. He actually said the side-by-side comparison was that their 350W Hybrid Illuminator was between 70-100% equivalence with 1000W HPS. He gave 90W Far-Red Flowering Accelerator lights to the testers whose yields were on the low end and they reported in subsequent test that yields from the same strains were equivalent with the HID comparison group.
Basically, Knna, they seem to be on a level of knowledge that makes me think someone like you could talk to them and get more out of it than myself. Maybe they do have something unique. Their newest lights are comprised of 5 wavelengths in 3 parts of the spectrum. I really wish you'd give them a ring and test them out.
ProSource said that research has been done for some time identifying which wavelengths are optimal for growth, but that LED's in the absolutely optimal wavelengths have been difficult or impossible to source. He said that of the five wavelengths currently being used, two only became available in the second quarter of this year. Their lights are assembled in China, to their proprietary specifications.
I gave him the numbers above and he said that 660 is the only optimal wavelength here, and that 470, depending on the distribution with respect to the others, can act as a flowering inhibitor. He said the others (590, 610, 630) will be virtually useless. He said that while 30% of Chlorophyll A production is activated by orange or amber light, it is the deeper oranges, well-on towards red, that do this, not 610nm nor near.
When ProSource brought their first Led's to market, they attracted a small, high-quality group of expert growers of "plants like the ones you may or may not be talking about", who provide continuous feedback. He said that 70-80% of these growers had results equal to their side-by-side HID equivalents WITHOUT THE IR FLOWERING ACCELERATOR (as long as plants were finished below 4'), and that the remaining 20-30% matched that with the addition of the 90w far-red light. This was with their now-discontinued tri-band technology (which again, is NOT the red-white-blue that is available from a lot of other distributors), not with their newer 5-band, mixed-wattage lights.
I hope someone here more knowledgeable than myself will call and get more specific facts to see whether there is anything unique about this product.
I hope someone here more knowledgeable than myself will call and get more specific facts to see whether there is anything unique about this product.
knna
Member
rambam, I know who makes those panels. If you order enough, you can tell them to put whatever LEDs colors, power and distribution of what they have avalaible, in general medium efficiency LEDs.
There is no so much to choose. 405nm (violet), 450nm (blue), 470 (darker blue), 525nm (green), 590nm (yellow-orange), 610nm (orange), 630nm (red) and 660nm (deep red). From all those colors they have avalaible, only 630nm gives good efficiencies, while 450 and 470 give decent ones, and the rest, low efficiencies.
So most people ordering them (and putting their logo on it) are using mostly 630nm and 660nm in the red, plus one blue wl (either 450 or 470nm). Some are adding orange or yellow, that seems to enhance the effect of other wl, although they have little efficiency themselves. I dont know of any one adding cyan or green, and some adds too 405 and still 430nm (that are a very bad choice, for efficiency reasons).
So, past the old only red and blue mixes, all are using very similar spectrums. Main difference is on the yellow-orange range, with differences below 20nm on the peak wl.
For all these lamps Ive seem in action, they perform similar. The main limitation is not of spectrum, but of LED's efficiency. Newbies using them arnt getting great results at all. Some are happy, some are dissapointed, but little gets yields over 0.6g/w.
Some experienced growers, using selected productive strains, are reaching the g/W, that probably is the max potential production that lamps may achieve. IMO, its low to make those lamps cost effective. But its enough for many growers.
When using medium efficiency LEDs, its very difficult to surpass large HIDs on a Watt per Watt basis. Possible, and some people is achieving it, but the margin over HIDs is low, making difficult to recover the initial investment. But for people with heat problems, or with stealthness requeriments, it may worth.
But 350W hybrid producing as much as a 1000W HID....except if the 1000W is very bad used, very difficult, almost impossible when using those LEDs. IMHO, no way. If they want I believe it, they must show it in action, by some independ growers journaling a full grow with them. Until that, I say that claim is bullshit.
There is no so much to choose. 405nm (violet), 450nm (blue), 470 (darker blue), 525nm (green), 590nm (yellow-orange), 610nm (orange), 630nm (red) and 660nm (deep red). From all those colors they have avalaible, only 630nm gives good efficiencies, while 450 and 470 give decent ones, and the rest, low efficiencies.
So most people ordering them (and putting their logo on it) are using mostly 630nm and 660nm in the red, plus one blue wl (either 450 or 470nm). Some are adding orange or yellow, that seems to enhance the effect of other wl, although they have little efficiency themselves. I dont know of any one adding cyan or green, and some adds too 405 and still 430nm (that are a very bad choice, for efficiency reasons).
So, past the old only red and blue mixes, all are using very similar spectrums. Main difference is on the yellow-orange range, with differences below 20nm on the peak wl.
For all these lamps Ive seem in action, they perform similar. The main limitation is not of spectrum, but of LED's efficiency. Newbies using them arnt getting great results at all. Some are happy, some are dissapointed, but little gets yields over 0.6g/w.
Some experienced growers, using selected productive strains, are reaching the g/W, that probably is the max potential production that lamps may achieve. IMO, its low to make those lamps cost effective. But its enough for many growers.
When using medium efficiency LEDs, its very difficult to surpass large HIDs on a Watt per Watt basis. Possible, and some people is achieving it, but the margin over HIDs is low, making difficult to recover the initial investment. But for people with heat problems, or with stealthness requeriments, it may worth.
But 350W hybrid producing as much as a 1000W HID....except if the 1000W is very bad used, very difficult, almost impossible when using those LEDs. IMHO, no way. If they want I believe it, they must show it in action, by some independ growers journaling a full grow with them. Until that, I say that claim is bullshit.
knna
Member
The first paragraph probably point toward they are using 405nm and maybe 640nm instead of 630nm.
The second shows they are still thinking on chlorophils absortion. I cant take them seriously since that.
Well anyone trying to grow plants will have some interest in chlorophyll absorption but I'm not sure whether it's their SOLE design concern, as one of their press releases mentions the following: "The 5-Band System targets all peak efficiency value for 3-photosynthetic and 2-element non-photosynthetic processes. We have also tried to scientifically balance the 5-band system to power these specific peak bands in the proper photosynthetic proportions. For Example, Chlorophyll A, which is responsible for 60% of a plant's photosynthesis, if given too few of the allocation, will not achieve peak photosynthesis. If you provide too much, Chlorophyll A begins to shut down from overload, while other photosynthetic elements starve due to the under-allocated crucial LED Bands."
Knna, I am an ignoramus compared to yourself, but are you 100% sure there's no way these lamps are similar but NOT identical to what you're describing? If you mentioned the place you think they come from to the guy, I think he'd verify or deny it. Maybe you can post it here and I can ask him. As you can see, I want to believe they're onto something, just because it would be so convenient for all of us here if they were. I understand that your goal in live is not necessarily to fulfill my curiosity, but if you or anyone else on here has got a shred of curiosity of their own, I do wish you would call them and just ask a few questions. I've been able to get right through to someone every time at 1-866-921-5553 9am-9pm EST.
Knna, I am an ignoramus compared to yourself, but are you 100% sure there's no way these lamps are similar but NOT identical to what you're describing? If you mentioned the place you think they come from to the guy, I think he'd verify or deny it. Maybe you can post it here and I can ask him. As you can see, I want to believe they're onto something, just because it would be so convenient for all of us here if they were. I understand that your goal in live is not necessarily to fulfill my curiosity, but if you or anyone else on here has got a shred of curiosity of their own, I do wish you would call them and just ask a few questions. I've been able to get right through to someone every time at 1-866-921-5553 9am-9pm EST.
Since you mentioned independent published trials, they ARE actually inviting people to try their new 5-band products for 90 days and return it for full refund. Maybe someone here can do that. They said that within 2-3 weeks of 12-12 you should be able to see what the pace of flower development is, since especially with the addition of the 90w Far-Red lamp, flowering starts more quickly with these.
knna
Member
At least it show they truly believe on their product. If its an honest offer, and you are interested on trying it, make a 80 days trial grow (and please show us). If you are pleased, keep it, if not, return it.
Im always advicing to no believe perfomance claims from LED product's sellers, but believe what you get using the product, or seeing what an independent grower gets with it. As simple as that. Experience is the best judge.
Im sure they are similar but not identical. Those lamps uses a common platform, for the electronic and thermal system, that may be custom ordered for the LEDs colors , distribution and power being mounted. Then you put your logo on it and sell it as the last and revolutionary LED grow light in the market.
But again, the main limitation is not spectrum based. We know the spectrum does a difference. But always over the baseline of photon emission. If the photon emission is low, then no matter how good is the spectrum, that is very difficult to surpass high power HIDs in perfomance.
And LEDs used for those manufacturers range from decent to bad. Not anywhere near in perfomance to good LEDs, that cost much more that those they use.
Some people has very good intentions when designing them, but simply lacks of esential knowledge about what they are trying to achieve. They want simple solutions that works universally well, and its almost impossible dealing with so much complex process as plant's use of light.
Ideally, we all want to find relatively simple solution that works well on a wide range of environments and plant's species, or at least, well for cannabis on a wide range of environments. But finding a simple solution often implies to understant deep the complexity of the problem. Trying to find a simple solution without taking into account esential processes is just a matter of luck, and explaining them as scientific based of chlorophills absortion is basically a joke.
If they tell you how much light emits their panel, we may start talking about its potential. How many uE/s in PAR it emits? (or at least, how many PAR Watts). That is an esential part of the perfomance of a growing lamp. Talking just about spectrum may be done with research purposes, but for a comercial lamp claiming to produce 3X for each watt burned than large HIDs, previding info about the amount of light emitted is a must.
billyjojimbob11
Member
I have the warm white results now ready for harvest, I will post the results tonight, also, I have installed a 12 watt 590nm amber suppliment which I will post as well.
Knna,
I was told in another thread to seek your advice regarding leds... I don't have enough posts yet to pm... Could you reccommend a led lamp which would fit in my 24in(w) x 15in(d) x 36in(h) cab which could provide me with a 2oz harvest per run??? I currently run a 150w hps with a cool tube, but can't keep the temps under control in my climate... Could LEDs be the answer to my problem???
Anyone else feel free to chime in also...
I was told in another thread to seek your advice regarding leds... I don't have enough posts yet to pm... Could you reccommend a led lamp which would fit in my 24in(w) x 15in(d) x 36in(h) cab which could provide me with a 2oz harvest per run??? I currently run a 150w hps with a cool tube, but can't keep the temps under control in my climate... Could LEDs be the answer to my problem???
Anyone else feel free to chime in also...
knna
Member
Yes, in your situation LEDs clearly are the solution. 60-80W of good LEDs should provide you those 2 oz on average each 2 months depending of the strain.
A 90W UFO style coupled with a PLL lamp might do the job done, too.
120W comercial LED panels are able to yield that too.
With grow cab well dialed and productive strains, those alternatives should produce more than those 2 oz each 2 months. If you need 2 oz/month, then you will need to go the DIY route and use top end LEDs in order to use less than 150W, about 100W.
Heat management of any of those options is way easier than of a 150W HPS. However, a 150W HPS is no so difficult to cool down. A good designed cab with a 150W HPS shouldnt be difficult to manage. If the problem is temperature in the grow room is close to 85F, then what you need is an AC or an evaporative cooler (if the climate is dry), more than tuning the lighting setup.
But for sure that 70W of LEDs have very little impact on temperatures, still with little ventilation, just the needed to replace CO2 consumed by plants.
billyjojimbob said:
Knna, I just got of the phone with ProSource, asking them for micromoles of photons per meter squared per second or PAR watts. Got some hemming and hawing. They said their research and development from the beginning until now had been based on dialing in spectral efficacy with most powerful LED's available and practical, combined with wave after wave of field trials to see concrete results in plants. So they have not measured that. They conceded that from the plants' perspective, these measurements are relevant, but say that giving them the right wavelengths (at the intensities in uE/s that are now possible) is more important. He kept emphasizing the concrete results.
This was a bit of a letdown for me, but he did say that if any one of you wanted to get a 350W together with the 90W all-IR lamp and do a 90-day run AND DOCUMENT IT HERE, he would give them a 25% discount and would incorporate those results into their research. So for both together it would be $1200. Maybe you could talk him into a 30% discount. I gave him this thread, too, so he can come here and see what the concerns and thoughts of knowledgeable people like yourself are, since he realizes that answering those concerns are key to his company's performance in this market, which may (or may not) form a significant part of their sales...
This was a bit of a letdown for me, but he did say that if any one of you wanted to get a 350W together with the 90W all-IR lamp and do a 90-day run AND DOCUMENT IT HERE, he would give them a 25% discount and would incorporate those results into their research. So for both together it would be $1200. Maybe you could talk him into a 30% discount. I gave him this thread, too, so he can come here and see what the concerns and thoughts of knowledgeable people like yourself are, since he realizes that answering those concerns are key to his company's performance in this market, which may (or may not) form a significant part of their sales...
Actually I looked further on their site and if you already own a competitor's LED product, and are willing to produce a video showing a 3-way comparison with HID, competitor LED, and Prosource LED, they will discount the ProSource products 50%. I hope one of you guys will call them... http://www.prosourceworldwide.com/category_s/51.htm
billyjojimbob11
Member
Well, honestly, I noticed little difference between the warm white and the neutral white, maybe a little extra bud, maybe a little more stretching, overall it is not the answer.
Now I have installed 12 watts of amber on the mini sog to see if we can get the plants some diversified yellow photons to inhibit flowering faster and keep the plants ontime. Warm white failed at getting the plants to finish ontime and flowers were smaller than I think are possible. The far red in the 12 watts of WW seemed to provide little in the progression of early flowering. Lets hope yellow can contribute to good early flower development and progression.
Color Looks very similar to an hps on the leaves.
Also, I need a better camera, I am ordering one today, any suggestions?
Now I have installed 12 watts of amber on the mini sog to see if we can get the plants some diversified yellow photons to inhibit flowering faster and keep the plants ontime. Warm white failed at getting the plants to finish ontime and flowers were smaller than I think are possible. The far red in the 12 watts of WW seemed to provide little in the progression of early flowering. Lets hope yellow can contribute to good early flower development and progression.
Color Looks very similar to an hps on the leaves.
Also, I need a better camera, I am ordering one today, any suggestions?
