I've never used an "additive"...do I "need" to?

[spurr]

I do OK with just good ferts...AN Sensi, GH...but I've been wondering..."am I losing out on an easy way to boost yield"?

Well...am I?

If I'm using a good dose of Sensi or Maxibloom, am I REALLY going to see an improvement? To me, the plants look great.

I do not consider additives from hydro stores to be must have besides silica. I for one make extensive use of PGRs which definitely do increase yield, growth rate, phototropism, rate of photosynthesis, amount of trichs, etc; but the PGRs I use do not come from any hydro store or cannabis company. The cost of PGRs is so little it's not even funny, $50 worth of PGRs will last a year or more unless you have a huge garden...but I digress.

In terms of supplements from a hydro store, ProTekT is the only must have IMO. The reason being, Si (silcia) is a very needed element, rates as high as ~50-100 ppm assist plant growth greatly, and assist plant biological functions, along with assisting Ca movement from source tissue (roots) to sink tissue (leafs). Si is a very underrated element because when plant ash tests were first concluded (near a century ago) Si was not tested, thus, today Si is not included in most 'base' ferts even tho it's very beneficial. I can provide many peer-reviewed white papers (studies and reviews) published in respected academic journals if you wish to read further. Using 2.5 ml per gallon of ProTeKt provides a good amount of Si and means one bottle of ProTeKt will last a long time, thus it's a sound investment.

Another very useful additive is citric acid. The reason citric acid is a great additive is it bonds to P anions keeping them soluble in the rhizosphere and soil solution. Also citric acid helps the Krebs cycle. The reason P anions are not needed by plants at the same level of N, K or Ca is that P anions are not readily available to plants in nature, thus they have evolved to use lower levels of P than other major elements. I could explain all the why's but this post would get long and IME most people don't care about the why's as it gets technical in the topic of soil science.

In short, P anions are not very mobile in the soil solution (thin layer of water surrounding particles in media, soilless and soil) and are readily bound and made insoluble to media particles and other elements and organic substances; critic acid prevents this. The soil solution holds cations in equilibrium to the cations held in cation exchange sites of media particles. Roots exude large amounts of citric acid that keeps P anions soluble in rhizosphere and soil solution. Roots also 'feed themselves' by exuding critic acid (and other acidic chemicals/substances) that mineralizes P anions from organic matter like soft rock phosphate, etc.

I agree with Carl Carlson that your plants do not look healthy, no offense intended, just being honest. They look over fed and it looks like they have have pH issues. In all your pics the leafs are in bad shape which is a main indicator of plant health. What Carl wrote "In pics 3 and 4 we can see the leaf tips and margins curled up. This indicates that the plant is trying to retain moisture. Are you battling high temps? Is the bulb too close? A strong fan blowing directly on the plants? Not enough air exchange?" is pretty much what I would write, with a few caveats and a few additions:

The leaf canoeing issue in all your pics can be from a few issues Carl listed, but it's not necessarily from plant trying to retain moisture because plants simply reduce stomatal conductance to retain moisture (close down stoma) in repose to high "Air to Leaf Vapor Pressure Deficit" (i.e. low RH and high temp) which in turn limits the translocation of Ca to leafs do to low "E" (rate of transpiration). Thus, the leaf canoeing can be from Ca issues which could be caused by too dry (or too dry and too hot) atmosphere (i.e. high VPD) which hinders translocation of Ca from roots to shoots/leafs due to reduced E.

Also, if your providing too much irradiance (lamps to close in terms of light, not heat) the leaf margins can curl which if the plant attempts to reduce the surface area of the leaf thus limiting the photons striking the leaf. If the top leafs are 'praying' that is another sign you are proving too much light, if leafs pray that is often the plants attempt to limit surface area of leaf thus reducing the photons striking the leaf. However, if plants on the perifery of the light/garden are praying toward the light it can mean the plant is trying to get more light, but in that case usually only the far side of the plant's leafs will pray toward the light and the side closer to the light will stay horizontal. So, both leaf curling inward (canoeing) and leafs praying can indicate light saturation which hinders the plant and can cause the plant leaf tissue to respire (photorespiration) which is a bad thing as it greatly hinders photosynthesis in C3 plants such as cannabis.

 

[spurr]

oh yea,

Silica (i.e. potassium silicate) from ProTeKt raises water pH and citric acid lowers water pH so they can cancel each other out in terms of affecting pH depending upon usage rates of both substances.

 

[couchlockd]

yeah i was thinking the first pic's cola was quite wispy, again no offense. lets try and figure out how to correct it. it looks like a heat related problem, or an over saturation of light. like spurr said.

i use a 600 watt light in a 3X2 space, and i was thinking the aurora indicas i grew last round would of benifited from me using my 400 watt light instead. as indicas are said to be "less needy" when it comes to light.

but the first pic is the haze and hazes should be able to take all the light we are humanly possible to give and still be fine and want more, no?

on the topic of boosters, like toohighmf said, humics and fulvics are the thing to try out next, or a product like liquid karma, which has a ton of humics in it, would also be good.

but watch it with humics and fulvics cuzz they cause nutrients to become more available over a broader ph range, that would otherwise lock up and restrict uptake in the situation of a over-fertiliation.

recently i started using humic and fulvic at 2X the bottle recomendations (AN's "Grandma Enggy's H-2 humic and F-1 fulvic) and thricomes are laying down carpets of hash tips now.

bloombastic is another good one but expensive (little under a cold GRAND a gallon [869.00]) but you could get a free sample if you contact ATAMI, the manufacturer. this stuff rocks, and it a stand alone bloombooster, as the humic and fulvic recomended is a general supplement but does wonders in flowering.

or try to find something like the OG big bud formulation, with extra magnesium (7%) and amino acids and citric acids, the first lable of kushie kush which was 1-7-17 NPK had the full comlment of aminos and citruc acids and magnesium boosted.

there is a line of nutrients called "NUTRI+", and "BUD+" i forget the manufacturer, but they are exact compies of AN's OG 2+ products, and are like a third of the cost.

but definatley a set of humics and fulvics, and a PK booster surely would not hurt, but make sure you find the root of your problem,, although not to severe and your results are satisfactory already, wqtch out cuzz under the right circumstances extra PK in the soil, will cause very bad burns and shit for taste, if the temps are causeing the plant to act up.

 

[spurr]

but the first pic is the haze and hazes should be able to take all the light we are humanly possible to give and still be fine and want more, no?

No. Cannabis light saturation (and reduction in rate of photosynthesis) happens about > 1,600 PPFD. Peak light outside in summer near the equator at sea level is about 2,000 PPFD, but that's only peak in summer at noon. That is what equatorial sativas would get naturally at high noon in the summer on a cloudless day. We as growers often provide more light than the sun does in terms of PPFD and in terms of DLI (Daily Light Integral): the sum of photons striking the leaf per day. Outside in nature the PPFD starts off low, then gets high, then goes low, like a bell curve. But inside it's just high all day, that is why it's easy to over-saturate plants indoors exceeding what the sun can/does provide.

Peak rate of photosynthesis for cannabis is reached at 1,500 to 1,600 PPFD, however, that is measured per second, thus if we provided 1,500 PPFD all day we would provide far more light than the sun does and we would over-saturate the plant. I have been working on finding solid data to calculate ideal DLI-PPFD for cannabis from data collected in Hawaii. My math shows ideal DLI-PPFD is about 1,000 using 1,500 PPFD.

but definatley a set of humics and fulvics, and a PK booster surely would not hurt, but make sure you find the root of your problem,, although not to severe and your results are satisfactory already, wqtch out cuzz under the right circumstances extra PK in the soil, will cause very bad burns and shit for taste, if the temps are causeing the plant to act up.

True, IMO it would not hurt if properly applied, however, because plants need much less P than K I think most bloom boosters are not well thought out.

spurr

 

[roseta_stoned]

cant go wrong with a good kelp mix
spurr im very interested in your use of PGRs can you post your schedule whith hows and whys please mate

 

[Carl Carlson]

Yes to Silicon.

 

[Japanfreakier]

For every pic of a big cola with additives there is a pic of a big cola without additives. There's more to a plant than being big though and some of the additives out there are supposed to increase resin or taste. I wouldn't mind trying some of those either.

 

[spurr]

Months ago I opened a thread here asking for any scientific and indipendent studies that demontrate that adding amino-acids and enzymes to the ones the plants produce by themself is good for anything. Nobody found one.

FWIW, I have lots of academic peer-reviewed info about amino acids (e.g. Dissolved Organic Nitrogen) being a non-ionic source of N for plants and microbes. Application of a smorgasbord of amino acids isn't a good idea because many are not proven to help, and the roots exude lots of amino acids to feed and communicate with microbes and we don't want to interfere with that, however, application of some amino acids can provide N, etc. Also microbes exude some amino acids the roots can use.

The wild claims about benefits from application of amino acids from companies who sell amino acids are mostly BS.

If I have to mix 3 products for flowering stage, why the nutes company doesn't mix'em by itself producing a single bottle instead of 3? After all if they can be mixed, they're compatible.

Some forms of mineral elements (i.e. ions) can not be mixed with others in concentrate because they will precipitate out of the solution. That is why some fert companies offer two or three bottles, and it's ok to mix them in a large volume of water. However, some fert compnies make more than one bottle becuase they can make more money that way, bastards.

 

[spurr]

cant go wrong with a good kelp mix
spurr im very interested in your use of PGRs can you post your schedule whith hows and whys please mate

Yes sure, no prob, but gimme a little bit, like a day, I'm busy today.

 

[Throwgar]

I've used AN Sensi 2 part grow and bloom for about 6 years or so. Never an additive, other than H2O2. I have great results so far.

 

[Syd]

FWIW, I have lots of academic peer-reviewed info about amino acids (e.g. Dissolved Organic Nitrogen) being a non-ionic source of N for plants and microbes. Application of a smorgasbord of amino acids isn't a good idea because many are not proven to help, and the roots exude lots of amino acids to feed and communicate with microbes and we don't want to interfere with that, however, application of some amino acids can provide N, etc. Also microbes exude some amino acids the roots can use.

The wild claims about benefits from application of amino acids from companies who sell amino acids are mostly BS.




Some forms of mineral elements (i.e. ions) can not be mixed with others in concentrate because they will precipitate out of the solution. That is why some fert companies offer two or three bottles, and it's ok to mix them in a large volume of water. However, some fert compnies make more than one bottle becuase they can make more money that way, bastards.

Thank you spurr. Reading your posts is a real pleasure.

I grow outdoor and I've always used lemon juice to lower my water pH. If compared to pure citric acid, does it act in different ways with plants?

 

[toohighmf]

There's always a truth somewhere. What we can be sure about is that moderate doses of additives don't cause diseases.
Months ago I opened a thread here asking for any scientific and indipendent studies that demontrate that adding amino-acids and enzymes to the ones the plants produce by themself is good for anything. Nobody found one.
There are also little questions shared here and there like:

If I have to mix 3 products for flowering stage, why the nutes company doesn't mix'em by itself producing a single bottle instead of 3? After all if they can be mixed, they're compatible.

Or: if the soil produced by a co. is specific for Cannabis plants, why do I need to add 10 other products to it and, above all, starting from the very early stage?

Almost anything is compatible. however to throw everything great in a bottle... the ferts will precipitate or "fall out of suspension" or people convinced they need these bottles and are willing to pay for them: you can use 3 bottles minimum... 1 part, PH up and PH down makes 3 bottles. you sure your not using 5 bottles??

 

[Syd]

This year I'm using 2 basic ferts and P-K because I need'em and 2 additives just because I had'em as free samples. Yes, they're 5 indeed but the first 3 are usually enough if I have no deficiencies.
As I said I use lemon juice as pH down and nothing as pH up 'cause the natural pH of my water is already 7.9-8.0

 

[High Country]

I forgot about the pH stuff, yep, that is the only additive I use. The tap water is about 6.4 pH and I get it down to 5.8 pH in hydro. I've never had to use pH up.

 

[FreezerBoy]

If I have to mix 3 products for flowering stage, why the nutes company doesn't mix'em by itself producing a single bottle instead of 3?

They do.

However, then you're stuck with a formula made by someone with no knowledge of you, your plant, your grow, your conditions, your equipment or your needs. Many people are happy to go that way. Others prefer to mix their own in proportions particular to their unique situation.

My only additive is pH Down.

 

[ibjamming]

Thank you spurr...and everyone else.

Those problems I believe are mostly due to the light being REALLY close. It's a vertical grow and those leaves right there in the middle are sometimes only inches from the 400W bulb. Since I only have a 400W, I get it too close to some parts to "make up for it's wimpyness". The rest is due to a fairly long flush of a few weeks. I'm sure the pH was too high for the last week or so too...I just poured in the straight tap...with a quite high pH. You've got a good eye...who is this "new guy"?

As for the Si...I've heard of people using it...but wouldn't the perlite provide it? It's just volcanic rock and should be releasing enough?

My GH pH down is...from memory...mostly citric acid with some phosphoric and nitric acid too? So, I should be golden there.

Thanks for all the replies, thanks for all the suggestions. It's NOT a dialed in grow. I'm still fairly new, I'm in my 3rd year of indoor growing. I grew trees as a kid in the 70's in the San Bernardino mountains. I do different strains together and they pretty much all get stuck eating the same nutes. The only difference is some get watered more than others. If I see burn, I give half the nute mix everyone else gets and then I just add some straight pH'd tap. I'm learning about the importance of pH after killing a whole lot of seedlings in the beginning of last year. I learn a whole lot each grow. They're less than ideal conditions...believe me! Those plants in those pictures nearly froze to death in their first month.

I was looking for a cheap way out... My conditions will improve as I work on a permanent grow location with environmental control. My plants suffer freezing to 110F...it's actually a wonder I get anything!

Thanks again...

 

[dunkydunk]

I agree with other posters here who think your plant looks good, but could use some improvement, not additives. If the discoloration only came on at the very end, it was probably from your prolonged water flush with high pH. It can also happen from cold nights, which is more natural. But your plant looks a little crisped up, you say it got very close to the light. In my experience, scorching from the light affects localized areas on the plant, not the whole thing.

You look like you have some good genetics, so if you get your nutes, lights, and environment in line, you'll see improvements without the needing additives. And at the point where you are now, additives won't do anything but empty your wallet.

 

[kigy]

Almost anything is compatible. however to throw everything great in a bottle... the ferts will precipitate or "fall out of suspension" or people convinced they need these bottles and are willing to pay for them: you can use 3 bottles minimum... 1 part, PH up and PH down makes 3 bottles. you sure your not using 5 bottles??

also silica doubles as a good additive and pH up all in one.

 

[couchlockd]

hey spurr, what is PPDF and do you think a 600 watt light over a 4X2 foot floor space is too much PPDF's??

it is a 5X2 foot closet with 8 foot ceilings, but i only utilize anywhre from 3X2 square feet, or 4X2 square feet, as the other remaining space in the closet is for Co2 tank. intake filters, C02 sepuencer etc...

i doo have a 250, and a 400 watt ballast installed in there along with the 600 watt ballast, i use them according to how old/which stage of growth the clones are in.

typically i give em the 250 MH immediatly after transplant, then next week or so they get the 400 MH, then the 600 watt HPS during the whole flower cycle. lately ive been wondering if i would get just as good resuls and also save money on the electric bill if i use the 400 watt HPS instead, which in turn would no require the blowers to run as much.

i really need to know as this has been on my mind for over a year now, and i never really had the balls to take the risk, in a little less yield, but no i know for sure you can have too much light im thinking of it again,

what would you use for the given space, anyone??

sorry for the lightweight hijack, IBJAMMIN.

 

[couchlockd]

on the mulitple bottles question, heres laymans answer.

ever see a movie with a high school science lab, when they add a little this and then add a little that, then they add the magical ingrediant and then the mixture explodes and smokes, or rocks up.

thats what would happen if the 2 part and 3 part nutes were in one bottle. (minus the explosion.lol)