is this Potassium deficiency?

[gdbud]

HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics/Coco/Soiless/

How long has this problem been going on? one week
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents) Cabinet lined with black an white film.
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) DWC
What STRAIN are you growing? Nirvana feminized white widow
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Seeds
What is the age of your plants? Veg. for 4 weeks, and now day 43 flower cycle
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..) They have been in the DWC since 6 days old
How tall are the plants? 32inch, 81cm
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Flower
What Technique are you using? SCROG which is over grown
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) DWC
What is the Water temperature? 65 F, 18 C
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? Slightly brown Due to GH FloraNova
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) GH FloraNova Bloom and Hygrozyme
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* Reservoir change: 8 ml FloraNova Bloom and 8 ml Hygrozyme per Gallon of water. Top off with 5 ml Hygrozyme per gallon.
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)Top off add FloraNova Bloom to maintain 1200 ppm
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? 43 days ago when I switched over the lights to 12/12
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) One part nutrients
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? PPM Hanna digital meter
What is the pH of the "Tank"? today 6.05,
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? last calibrated on 03/08, Calibrated today was off 7.01/7.24, 4.01/ 4.21
When was your last watering?
What is your water temps? 65 F, 18 C
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) Last reservoir change on 03/08, reservoir changed today
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? 43 days ago between veg. stage and flower stage.
What size bulb are you using? 400 watt HPS
What is the distance to the canopy? Plants overgrown the cabinet plants at the Cool-Tube
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 38% - 50%
What is the canopy temperature? 77 F - 80 F, 25 C - 27 C
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) 77 F / 64 F, 25 C / 18 C
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 90 cfm
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? Passive intakes -> through cool-tube -> 440cfm inline fan -> Flat bed carbon filter -> room
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? Yes
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Soft 100 PPM
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Tap
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? No
Are plant's infected with pest's No

Here is a picture of the leaf problem I'm seeing.
It looks like it might be a potassium deficiency or could it be something else?

 

[Snype]

Potassium gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 4.0-4.5, 6.0-6.5. Hope that helps. That's what it looks like to me, seeing that your pH is a little high.

 

[gdbud]

Thanks for the info I will lower my PH today.

 

[Snype]

You're welcome, I'm glad I can help!

 

[OrganicMonkey]

Looks like nutrient toxicity, ph level is probably driving that problem since it's a DWC. I'd imagine good bacteria and fungus don't operate well in a water medium that is more basic. Gets bad in soil being to acidic, but the DWC can take it.

When was the last time you drove up the TDS and when did you see the burn? TDS increases can be smaller than what growth your adjusting to thinking. Truth is you probably had great growth because the TDS wasn't dangerous.

If anyone knows what book this picture is from, or where other symptoms from this book are posted please CHIME IN

I just love how this book has it simple and it has sketches so it's much more focused on one ailment and not a persons series of mistakes like the photos of user submitted issues.

 

[Snype]

If the leaves are browning or yellowing. Yellow, brown, or dead patches, especially around the edges of the leaf, which may be curled. Plant may be too tall. Those are usually signs of Potassium deficiency. And with the pH at the K lockout I would think that it was a K lockout. If it was a toxicity he would most likely have spots on his leaves.

This is a pic of a potassium lockout from Stitches thread:


Organic, according to the book that you just posted it clearly states a defecincy not the other way around. Look at picture B and read what it says also to the left.
Healthy dark green foilage
Leave margins turn rusty brown, curl up and dry
Leaves curl up

If you think I'm wrong tell me. If you think I'm right, tell me.

 

[Snype]

I would really like to see what someone else who has experience with this also thinks.

 

[groady-ho]

guys guys guys..i think you both maybe right..as you both know, deficiences often overlap..
i've run dwc for many yrs. and never had a ptoassium def. at 6.0..
never had any def. keeping my res. at 5.8-6.0..using lucas formula..
personally, i'm with organic monkey on toxicity..i think he should try topping off with plain ph adjusted water..instead of adding more nutes..
i think whats happening is the plant isn't using as much potassium as he's adding every time he tops off..creating a toxicity mimicing a def..

 

[Snype]

I feel you but he said that the pH was 6.05 today but I believe that it could have been higher at an earlier date. But we'll see what happens in time. You never had a K lockout at 6.0 because you let it rise to that from 5.8.

 

[gdbud]

Lookout! the cat is after the bird.

If the leaves are browning or yellowing. Yellow, brown, or dead patches, especially around the edges of the leaf, which may be curled. Plant may be too tall. Those are usually signs of Potassium deficiency. And with the pH at the K lockout I would think that it was a K lockout. If it was a toxicity he would most likely have spots on his leaves.
.

Potassium deficiency is probably it. Just the edges are affected the rest of the leaf is fine. The edges are turning brown and the tips are starting to curl. The other week I was out of town and my wife let the PH get up to 6.6 before dropping it.
I let my PH swing between 5.6 and 6.2 is this too much of a swing?

 

[groady-ho]

see that's the problem with tds and ppm meters..they don't tell what is in the res. only level of nutes..i always topped of with just plain water and changed nutes every 10 days..never had a glitch, even if my ph went up to 6.5 for a day or 2..just a good rule of thumb with dwc imho..
it's so tough trying to help peeps out..we do our best..i know when i have a problem there's only a few members here i would ask..you're one of them..
thanks snype..
gdbud, yes..it could be the problem..things can happen rapidly in dwc..
listen to snype..he just snyped us all..good call bro..

 

[gdbud]

Ok here is the history since my last reservoir change on 03/08 to present.
03/08 meters calibrated, PH 5.56, PPM 1200
03/09 Added 1 gallon leftover nutrients from reservoir change, PH 6.28, PPM 1300
03/10 Added 1 gallon H2O /w 5ml hygrozyme, PH 6.18. PPM 1220
03/11 Added 2 gallons H2O /W 10ml hygrozyme, PH 6.48, PPM 1320
03/12 added 24ml PH down, PH 5.93, PPM 1170
03/13 PH 5.90, PPM 1330
03/14 Added 1 gallon H2O /w 5ml hygrozyme, PH 5.97, PPM 1370
03/15 Added 1 gallon H2O /w 5ml hygrozyme, PH 6.07, PPM 1390
03/16 PH 6.19, PPM 1290 Added PH Down new, PH 5.49
03/17 Added 1 gallon H2O / w 5ml hygrozyme, PH 5.69, PPM 1530?
03/18 Added 1 gallon H2O /w 5ml Hygrozyme, PH 5.75 PPM 1320 ( PPM was 1480 before adding H2O)
03/19 Did not check
03/20 Reservoir Change. To 10 gallons H2O 80ml FloraNova Bloom, 80ml Hygrozyme & 30ml PH Down, PH 5.6, PPM 875 Meter calibrated to day the PH meter was off. Calibration soluation 7.01 meter reading 7.24, Calibration soluation 4.01 meter reading 4.21 So at sometime over the last 12 days the calibration went off.

03/21 PH 6.05 PPM 1140 added 5ml PH 5.80
03/22 Lights still off will check later.

 

[OrganicMonkey]

Today is just looks like over watering, then reading your feedings surely seem that way. I tested run off of a plant that then showed this exact same problem but more like stitches with far less damage...ie not such a strong yellowing of leafs or as many burnt leave edges, not nearly.

Some plants just don't respond as others do to over watering, I should of tested the run off of a more robust strain in the garden...but she's doing just fine, sucked it up quickly.

 

[Snype]

Lookout! the cat is after the bird.



Potassium deficiency is probably it. Just the edges are affected the rest of the leaf is fine. The edges are turning brown and the tips are starting to curl. The other week I was out of town and my wife let the PH get up to 6.6 before dropping it.
I let my PH swing between 5.6 and 6.2 is this too much of a swing?

I personally don't like my pH to swing up to 6.2 in DWC but I'm sure everyone will disagree with me. If your plants were mine, I would set your pH to 5.6 and let it swing to 6.0 then drop it back down. At 5.6 you are at lockout levels for some elements but only for a short time and usually it works for me as long as it's only down there for a max of a couple days.

 

[Massproducer]

He is growing DWC, meaning there is no overwatering, the roots sit constantly in aerated water?

Today is just looks like over watering, then reading your feedings surely seem that way. I tested run off of a plant that then showed this exact same problem but more like stitches with far less damage...ie not such a strong yellowing of leafs or as many burnt leave edges, not nearly.

Some plants just don't respond as others do to over watering, I should of tested the run off of a more robust strain in the garden...but she's doing just fine, sucked it up quickly.

 

[Snype]

He is growing DWC, meaning there is no overwatering, the roots sit constantly in aerated water?

I agree so much and this is what frustrates me with the infirmary. This is common sense but common sense these days isn't common anymore.

 

[OrganicMonkey]

He is growing DWC, meaning there is no overwatering, the roots sit constantly in aerated water?

Not always the case, the air pump might not be moving O2 very well and there might be so many other gases from decomp or bacteria.

I agree so much and this is what frustrates me with the infirmary. This is common sense but common sense these days isn't common anymore.

I agree but common sense isn't always the first opinion come to thought to be the obvious answer. I have a GH Bubba Kush in veg that would surely get answers from people being a lock out or deficiency and probably Cal/Mag. Deductive reasoning points the other way, it's the smallest plant in veg so it's obviously not being fed to little. If larger plants are getting the very similar solution, then it's obviously to strong for the little girl. I have been known to add a few more ml's of water to a needless syringe but apparently this one needs more dilution. I think she is suffering from a mix of over watering and mineralization, mostly the latter but the first is a good part of what promotes that if rich in mineral salts.

Her bottom leafs are fading very slowly and mostly get some sort of almost fungus looking dried tip that spreads oddly...with a very slight lime green instead of the dark green. Spreading slowly from the veins, reminds me of over-watering but due to the lime and not yellowing happening slower than what appears to be mineral deposits.

A DP Orange Bud also has some mineral deposits, slight rust spotting which is hardly severe at all with some bleach spots (very small, not wide spread, actually specks not spots). On this girl it's all very random and not at all every leaf.

The Mazar Kush did show one leaf blade side of a tip having tiny specks of rust, a darker rust. It's not fungus, I think it's mineral deposits in some of these. Perhaps the micro blast was added to early for some girls, in conjunction with a full spectrum dry fert added to the soil mix.

There are also minerals in Kelp products, not just the Maxi crop but the catalyst, the micro blast and Pure Blend Pro and Pure Blend all have kelp extracts.

Since the Bubba is so slow at veg, this one concerns me the most. She is going to get mostly straight ph'd water, slightly enriched with say 10 ml a syringe of a pre-flower nutrient per a 140 ml fill up (15 ml of PBP grow, 15 ml PBP flower, 9 ml Pure Blend grow, 9 ml Pure Blend flower, 40 ml Maxi crop, 12 ml catalyst, 9 ml very diluted yet quite dark organic molasses and zero ml of micro blast). Micro blast is said to be every two to four weeks, I'm sure the soil is rich in minerals.

The larger plants are receiving three 140 ml syringes per one gallon pot of soil. Today they received two syringes of the above solution with 40 ml water, 100 ml solution. The third syringe being 70 ml of water and 70 ml of solution.

The smaller plants that germinated two weeks later, due to some going for the Gold philosophy; are getting two syringes at this time per gallon of soil. These vary a lot due to lack of topping and some strains are just very compact (X-18, DNA White Widow and Green House seeds Bubba Kush who is just freaking slow at veg but huge leafs).

It's rare to think that cells can absorb to many minerals, but this happens to people as well. To much Calcium, to many carrots causes problems too, I think my sister had that when we were kids (seriously).

 

[Massproducer]

If you are growing in a deep water culture system and your pump is not pushing enough O2 it is not overwatering? And what is decomposing?
If you are growing in DWC the last thing you want to see if bacteria, wheather benefical or pathogenic, that is why MOST people growing in something like DWC add things like H2O2, to kill ALL microbes, unless you are using something like bio-buckets, DWC and microbes do not mix, the reason being the bacteria like roots uses O2, and if let bloom WILL create an anaerobic situation that will adversely affect roots.

Minerialization??? What do you mean Minerialization??? Do you mean a toxic salt build up??? I sometimes have a very hard time following your train of thought because it honestly seems like you generalize everything, which just can not be done. You seem to be mixing soil/soiless/ organics and hydroponics principles all in the same pot.

And I am basically unsure of what you mean be mineral deposits on leaves??? Do you foliar feed???

 

[OrganicMonkey]

If you are growing in a deep water culture system and your pump is not pushing enough O2 it is not overwatering? And what is decomposing?
If you are growing in DWC the last thing you want to see if bacteria, wheather benefical or pathogenic, that is why MOST people growing in something like DWC add things like H2O2, to kill ALL microbes, unless you are using something like bio-buckets, DWC and microbes do not mix, the reason being the bacteria like roots uses O2, and if let bloom WILL create an anaerobic situation that will adversely affect roots.

Minerialization??? What do you mean Minerialization??? Do you mean a toxic salt build up??? I sometimes have a very hard time following your train of thought because it honestly seems like you generalize everything, which just can not be done. You seem to be mixing soil/soiless/ organics and hydroponics principles all in the same pot.

And I am basically unsure of what you mean be mineral deposits on leaves??? Do you foliar feed???

It's not salt, these are minerals the ion penetration is a salt in plants I do believe. No no no no, an air stone that isn't putting in another O2 is over watering but the more specific term is suffocating.....perhaps some auto-erotic aphysication for the plants roots might be a dutch method.

Of course the principles are the same no matter what medium, the plants needs don't change. You simply adjust to what is not there or is there.

Some bacteria are good, some are bad. I don't like how in DWC the water doesn't really circulate. I like the idea of having a rez where solid matter can settle at the bottom and become scum not on my roots.

Anyhow, hydrogen peroxide is a very terrible reaction with organics. It will produce acids, I think mostly acids with how the organics break down devastatingly fast.

 

[PetFlora]

Do you have a separate rez, or recirculating your nutes?

About the time I flipped, I switched to D2W. I have been monitoring my D2W runoff for several weeks, and am amazed how out of whack it is with the rez. pH can be several points higher or lower, but ppms are almost double the rez! The runoff is loaded with N or K which will show up in a bad way.

One of the many benefits of True Aero is that the feed cycle is less than 2 seconds every 9-10 minutes; very little nute loss per day when including D2W.