Is this nitrogen deficiency? Yellowing of new growth, super droopy leaves

[CandyColas]

How long has this problem been going on?
2 days
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
Growing in a spare bedroom that has been completely sealed in plastic and disinfected with a 10% bleach solution

What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...)
Hand Watering in 3 gallon pots

What STRAIN are you growing?
Grand Daddy Purple

What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
Clones in rockwool

What is the age of your plants?
36 days after the plants were rooted

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
36 days

How tall are the plants?
8 – 9”

What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
Flower

What Technique are you using?
Hand watering in Coco coir

What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
Canna Coco

What is the Water temperature?
72

What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
White and super healthy

What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)

Canna A + B, Rhizotonic, Cannazym, Real Plant Water (negatively ionized water)

How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
10ml per gallon of A+B, 2ml/gal of Rhizotonic, 10ml/gal of Cannazym, .5oz/gal of Real Water

How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
Up to once a day now for the last 2 days.

How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
Every time I water

If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
Bloom nutes are the same as veg nutes per Canna feed schedule


What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?
Tap water is .25 EC. My total EC is at 1.25 so subtract the .25 of the tap water and I’m at 1.0

What is the pH of the "Tank"?
5.8

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment?
I hope so!

When was your last watering?
yesterday

What is your water temps?
72

When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
NA

How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
NA

What size bulb are you using?

1 400W MH for veg and 2 600W HPS for bloom

What is the distance to the canopy?


18 inches
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
52%

What is the canopy temperature?
82

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
70/82

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
435CFM in a 7x9.5 foot room for bloom

Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
Just keeping the door open for now for intake. The room is 9.5x9.5 and is divided into a veg area and a bloom area. Veg is about 4x5 and bloom is about 7x9.5. I have a 4” HO Can Fan for the veg room and 6” CAP Valueline fan for the bloom room.

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
18inch oscillating fan blowing directly on plants.

Is your water HARD or SOFT?
.25 EC

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Tap water

Are you using water from a water softener?
No

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
Took cuttings off of the bottom 2 nodes 2 days ago

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
No

Are plant's infected with pest's
No

Is this nitrogen deficiency or nute lockout?

This is the top of one of my plants after 2 days in flower. Notice the yellowing of the new growth. The tips of the lower large fan leaves are beginning to get brittle as well and some are starting to curl down.

This is a photo of the top of one of the mothers that I had held back from the original batch of cutting that I received.

Here is a side shot of the mother and flowering plant side by side.

Just some random shots showing how much these are drooping.

 

[PrinSeshJasmine]

.

 

[Hazy Lady]

they look a little overwater, let them dry out a bit more between your waterings perhaps. that is a large container for a smaller plant. i don't think its drinking that much just yet. they look like they got "wet feet" syndrome

other that that, they look fine.

I agree with PrinSeshJ' just over-watered, left alone they'll be fine.
When transplanting in coir i believe it's best to soak the small pot but when it's transplanted don't water it in, just gently firm it down, the coir right from the bag is moist enough for new roots to grow into and then it won't get waterlogged.

 

[CandyColas]

Thanks Princess! I thought about that as well but it seems by the weight of the pots that they are drinking a lot right now. Plus, the coco seems to be somewhat dry after a day. I'll let them go another day before watering this time to see what that does but does overwatering cause the yellowing of the leaves too? I just put these into flower so is that just a part of what happens when you switch to 12/12? Also, isn't the plant needing more Nitrogen now that it's trying to grow buds? Can too much light cause the same symptoms that you are seeing here? I just checked on them a few minutes ago and it looks like there is some light burn on them that I didn't see before when I took the pictures last. This is only appearing on the top few leaves.

 

[Hazy Lady]

No it needs less N in flower, the yellow is just new growth from the dark 12 that has not greened up yet.

 

[CandyColas]

Okay well I really don't think that it's from overwatering. I have a really healthy root system all the way down to the bottom of the pots and trying to grow out of the drain holes. I pulled one of them out of the pot to check and they look great. I'm not sure if any of you have ever grown in coco coir but it's almost impossible to overwater in it. Plus, I can tell by the weight of the pot after 24 hours, they've used up quite a bit and could use another feed/water. I'm going to wait another 24 hours this time around as I can't see it hurting anything at the moment but the more I read and look at pictures on the net, the more this is looking like light/heat stress. Because of the unusually high temps right now during the summer, my grow room is getting into the mid to upper 80's. My bloom room is about 504 cubic feet. I have 2 600W HPS's in there and a 435CFM fan evacuating the air. I don't have air cooled hoods. I just leave the door open for the fresh air to come in through so during my daytime hours, it's getting pretty hot in there. Plus the lights were only 18 inches away. I just moved them to about 25 inches.

Any thoughts on heat/light stress?

 

[Solidopc]

I don't think it's heat stress. From my experience of heat stress, the leafs on my plants curl upards into a canoe type shape, in order to make as much surface area of the underneath of the leaf open and able to "sweat" moisture.

I grow in coco, and i agree with the others. Before i saw their posts the first thing i thought, was no perlite added, which helps drainage alot and air retention. It seems like your plants are being "choked" by the large pot full of pure coco, which will hold alot of water, too much for a plant that size in my opinion. But not enough of a problem it shouldn't grow well.

After reading your replies, i think you are watering too often. Every 24 hours is too much for them at the stage they are at. I flower my coco plants in 12 litre pots, in full bloom a 2.5-3 foot plant will drink 3-4litres depending on strain every 48 hours or so. Not sure how large those buckets are, but every 24 hours is alot, and the symptoms you're having seem to back that up.

When i lift my pots to see how much they weigh. They are literally so light i can lift them with 1 finger before i water. Then i water until runoff, and repeat. I can't believe those pots will be that light after 24 hours, especially at that size. I'd wait until they are dry before you water again.

As an aside, i don't subscribe to the notion that overwatering is near impossible. Coco might dry out quicker than soil, and have better drainage, but it's easy to overwater if you do overwater.

 

[thekingofNY]

another vote for overwattered.

 

[rasputin]

Ya, def. not N deficiency. Over watered.

 

[Guest 18340]

I've only seen my plants look like that for 3 reason, over watering, under watering or too much N. Actually, too much N gave me really dark green leaves and made the plants stretch, but...
Those plants look small for the pots they're in so I zero in on over water.
Since you have a few plants why don't you water one, let one dry more between watering and cut down on the N for the third.

 

[CandyColas]

Overwatering it is then! I'm going to wait a full 48 hours at least from my last water. I've also raised the lights to 25 inches. I'm not too worried about too much N as the nutes are at the low EC end and the mommas were given the same mix and they're doing fine.

Onto another idea that I had. I posted this in another thread but tell me what you guys think. I was thinking about putting an air diffuser hose coiled up in the coco so that I get extra oxygen to the root system. It might be a huge waste so I'm only going to try it on one plant at first but my thinking is that since coco holds a proportionately large amount of water, the air diffuser will cause the air to percolate throughout the substrate, thus aerating the medium more than it already is. I only think that this will work with fine coco dust like that from Canna but it may not work at all. The air is going to find the least amount of resistance and it might just vent out to the sidewall and then up, not aerating the coco at all. We'll see. I'll be sure to journal that grow.

Any thoughts on this?

I actually found something similar to grow mushrooms in which a patent was filed. Go here to see what I'm talking about. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6748696.html

 

[Solidopc]

I was considering doing this aswell. But my plan was to add a couple of inches of hydroton at the bottom, with the air stone underneath, then coco ontop. Was looking at a thread, where a dude did this, but instead of coco, he used rockwool. He scrogged one plant, under a 400watt, and got 450grams. I am sure the extra air to the roots had something to do with it, aswell as scrog. His plant was drinking 4-5litres a day i think in peak flower. Amazing shit. Extra oxygen for the roots can only be a good thing, so i'd definatly consider it.

As a more conventional method, adding perlite to the mix helps alot. I swear by my 70/30 coco/perlite mix.

 

[master shake]

That looks like NOT ENOUGH water and/or heat stress. Are the stems soft?

 

[Solidopc]

Plants will droop if underwatered, but also with overwatering. So you must look at the pictures and info given in situations with more than 1 immediate conclusion. You can see the coco is wet, both ontop, and at the holes through the bottom of the buckets. Add to that, the admission he waters every 24 hours, and underwatering is ruled out, in my opinion, and overwatering becomes the #1 culprit. Doesn't jump out ot me as heat stress, for reasons stated earlier.

 

[CandyColas]

I had actually been thinking about doing this for a while now. When I was Googling to see if anyone else had done something similar, I stumbled upon the KFB(Krusty Freedom Bucket), KBS (Killer Bucket System) or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure many of you know about this one. This really piqued my interest since I am a licensed medical patient and plant count matters here. Injecting air into the coco would basically be one of the steps in the KBS system. If this works, I may set up a quasi KBS system by doing the following:

One of my local shops has a nested potting system to build your own satellite grow setup. Basically it's a red colored pot with I think 4 or 5 holes in the bottom. This pot fits inside a 3 gallon bottom pot that is used as a reservoir. It doesn't have any holes in it when you buy it but you'd drill out a drain hole 2 inches from the bottom so that you'd always have nutes. Put your air diffuser in the bottom of the bucket so you have a bubbler and as the roots come out of the holes in the red pot, the bubbling nutes would act like an NFT system on the dangling roots. Instead of using pumice rocks, I'd use coco. This is basically the same idea as Krusty except instead of drilling a ton of holes in the 5 gallon buckets with a 1 gallon spacer, etc., etc., you’d have most of the work done for you.
I’m definitely exited to experiment!

 

[CandyColas]

That looks like NOT ENOUGH water and/or heat stress. Are the stems soft?

I have been watering every 24 hours for the last 2 days. The wilting started at around the same time. Before this, I was watering ever 48 to 72 hours and I had vigorous, lively, happy plants! I also had them under a single 400W MH and now they are under 2 600W HPS's.

It's definitely not under watering as Solidops said since the coco is moist through and through. Both the top and bottom have moisture. I originally thought that heat stress was my biggest problem since I'm getting temps of 85 - 88 during lights on and combined with the spots that I had figured were light burn, it just seemed to fit. Now that I've gotten some feedback from other coco growers, it's fairly obvious that its from overwatering. The weight of the pots 24 hours after a feeding seems light to me but that's only compared to a freshly watered plant. If I take bone dry coco and completely fill a 3 gallon pot, I’m only about 1/4 the weight of a fully saturated pot. Canna says that a rule of thumb is to water once the weight of your pot is 50% of the difference between the bone dry weight and the fully saturated weight. For example, saturated weight of 2 lbs. compared to a dry weight of 1 pound. Once your pot weighs 1.5 lbs. it's time to water. Keep in mind this doesn't take into account the weight of your actual plant itself.

 

[baet]

overwatering! you even state:
"I have been watering every 24 hours for the last 2 days. The wilting started at around the same time. Before this, I was watering ever 48 to 72 hours and I had vigorous, lively, happy plants!"
if you would of used a little deductive reasoning before posting this thread you could of easily distilled the situation at hand and concluded maybe im watering too frequently.
those plants are mighty green besides new growth, which for me is always slightly more pale-green than established growth and fan leaves. those fan leaves look plumpd full of moisture, too heavy for their own good

healthy looking plants though, keep up the good work

 

[CandyColas]

overwatering! you even state:
"I have been watering every 24 hours for the last 2 days. The wilting started at around the same time. Before this, I was watering ever 48 to 72 hours and I had vigorous, lively, happy plants!"
if you would of used a little deductive reasoning before posting this thread you could of easily distilled the situation at hand and concluded maybe im watering to frequently.
those plants are mighty green besides new growth, which for me is always slightly more pale-green than established growth and fan leaves.

healthy looking plants though, keep up the good work

Hey Baet,

A little deductive reasoning huh???

If you would have read through the entire thread, you would have seen that we have all already come to that conclusion. I've agreed with everyone in no less than 3 of my replies that this is an overwatering issue.

I don't know if I should take your post as rude or not since you did say "keep up the good work" towards the end. If you're going to post a comment, and a turgid one at that, maybe you should do yourself and the person you are commenting the due diligence and respect of reading the entire thread 1st.

And besides that, did you not read the part about the lights and the burns? I never disagreed with the overwatering. I just thought that there might be some other issues at hand since I had other symptoms. Read my 1st few posts buddy!!!! You might read something about PH issues and this being my 1st grow. Stop with the pompous attitude. We're all here to help each other out. Not to flex our big brain muscles. There is some good info in this thread and you might have seen that had you READ it.

My comment that you quoted was in response to a guys saying that he thought it was due to underwatering. I was trying to convey to him that this was indeed an overwatering issue. Had you done some deductive reasoning yourself, you might have come to that conclusion since above my comment you see

Originally Posted by master shake
That looks like NOT ENOUGH water and/or heat stress. Are the stems soft?

Un...freakin...believable...wow!

 

[baet]

i read your first post and every post.
i cant believe you took my previous comment so harshly, im sorry, i guess you would have to hear how it is said in my head when i wrote it... there was nothing harsh or mean in my previous comment. dont feel cornered. i was telling you that with what knowledge you had about what your plants were going thru(no signs of droopy leaves when watering every 48-72 hrs then droop as soon as you go into water every 24 hrs) you could of called overwatering, stopped watering for a day, two at most and seen verry healthy plants with no sign of overwatering. sorry it seemed like a mean comment. check out the infermery sticky on sick plants. has pictures of all deficiencies and pH problems for reference.

from one of your first posts: "Okay well I really don't think that it's from overwatering."

my post was never to tell you they're overwatered, as if you didnt know. your plants are very healthy and green.

dont trip

 

[master shake]

Un...freakin...believable...wow!

wow if you're such a fuckin expert then why are you still posting??? Go to hell my friend, and give a little slap on the devil's ass for me.

In MY experience, overwatering begins by LEAF curl and some yellowing bottom leaves...underwatering in MY experience shows STEM curl and remains dark green...My dearest apologies! Go write a book...