Is Genetic Drift real?

[LJ farming]

After growing for a few years I have noticed that after running a strain 6-8 times that it eventually stops producing the quality like it did originally as well as seems to yield a little less each run. I have always called bullshit about genetic drift and always cut my current mom into the clones I need for the following run as well as a couple extra to grow as new moms for the following run. Then I cull the mom.
My question to everyone is do you think genetic drift is real. I am obviously 6-8 cuts away from the original genetic/strain and definitely now think it’s possible. However I also think somewhere along the way of purchasing and trading and receiving new clones that there is a very good chance I picked up HLVP along the way and completely ruined all my genetics.
I decided to cull all the genetics I had accept one and ordered a test for it to see if it has HLVP. I was lucky enough to receive a seed collection from an old head that grew for over 40 years and honestly think old school genetics are the best way to go because of all the BS polybreed garbage being created these days! It will be interesting to see what the HLVP test results are for the only strain I kept.

So I guess after all my rambling above I would really like to hear opinions about genetic drift. I plan to only keep the original moms to take cuts off from now on as well as make damn sure nothing I grow has the Viroid but perhaps I am just being paranoid!

Peace,

LJ

 

[Loc Dog]

First thought was HLVD. Tumi sells tests for $25 but must buy 10. Tons of people selling dirty clones. Just received clones from 2 companies and had advanced stem canker on verge of death, but if younger clones would take up to 2 months to die.

 

[goingrey]

Hope she tests clean for Hop Latent Viroid (HpLVd).

Difficult to find info about the subject. Genetic drift, while the widely used term for the phenomenon on the forums, seems to refer to changes in gene frequency in populations over generations elsewhere.

A better term could be the "not widely used" clonal decay.

Do clones degenerate over time? Explaining the genetic variability of asexuals through population genetic models

Quest for understanding the nature of mechanisms governing the life span of clonal organisms lasts for several decades. Phylogenetic evidence for recent origins of most clones is usually interpreted as proof that clones suffer from gradual age-dependent ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From the conclusions of the paper.. "deviations from neutrality are proportional to clonal ages". So the older the clone the more likely it has changed?

 

[Loc Dog]

Hope she tests clean for Hop Latent Viroid (HpLVd).

Difficult to find info about the subject. Genetic drift, while the widely used term for the phenomenon on the forums, seems to refer to changes in gene frequency in populations over generations elsewhere.

A better term could be the "not widely used" clonal decay.

Do clones degenerate over time? Explaining the genetic variability of asexuals through population genetic models

Quest for understanding the nature of mechanisms governing the life span of clonal organisms lasts for several decades. Phylogenetic evidence for recent origins of most clones is usually interpreted as proof that clones suffer from gradual age-dependent ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From the conclusions of the paper.. "deviations from neutrality are proportional to clonal ages". So the older the clone the more likely it has changed?

Wonder if it is like telomeres, the tail of DNA which gets shorter every time cells divide. It is said that is why we age.

Get info on the Telomere Theory of Aging: What It Is and How It Works

The telomere theory of aging is one of the most prominent longevity concepts. Learn more about the aging process and what happens as cells divide.

www.verywellhealth.com

 

[Ca++]

I can't think of anything, that doesn't die eventually. Things like the Redwood and some Jellies are having a good go, but cannabis, like us, dies.
In the meantime, we could sit about watching TV and getting fat. Or we could be cage fighters. This won't cause notable genetic drift, but will certainly see some differences based on circumstances. Some crop techniques revolve around stressful situations, to make them try harder. Like sprays tricking them to respond to mold attacks. What the plants doing, is very much dependent on conditions.

I do the cuts off cuts thing, with no mum. I keep outdoors, year to year, but still no mums. My veg area only supplies plants to flower and take cuts from. Every rotation, it's clear for two weeks, except for cuttings and new seedlings.

I don't think the number of times they get turned into cuttings again, makes much difference. Things last 5-15 years, and what I am sure of, is mums like to be refreshed, not just kept going. Keeping mums long term, usually involves attempts to slow them down, to keep them short. Slowing our plants, is not wise. We should keep them rocking.

I think I have used the term, which I know is incorrect. More often I will describe what I mean, than use terminology.

 

[420empire]

Nice topic, and interesting article.
Their is many rumors about genetic drift, dunno how true is it...
Ca++ I´am deff on your side when it comes to this subject. I really dig, an always seen the idea of a clone of a clone as superiors to the mother thing idea.
Kevin jodrey mention in one of his vids, (thinks is 5 years old) that you need to let your clones outside in full sun, and feed your plants compost. Sry can´t remember which vid is was. Don´t know the science behind that argument other that I have seen a beaten up clone before thriving after being set outside.

cheers.

 

[Ca++]

Nice topic, and interesting article.
Their is many rumors about genetic drift, dunno how true is it...
Ca++ I´am deff on your side when it comes to this subject. I really dig, an always seen the idea of a clone of a clone as superiors to the mother thing idea.
Kevin jodrey mention in one of his vids, (thinks is 5 years old) that you need to let your clones outside in full sun, and feed your plants compost. Sry can´t remember which vid is was. Don´t know the science behind that argument other that I have seen a beaten up clone before thriving after being set outside.

cheers.

An old mum can be stuck in the ground outside, and pick up. I think it's going to be about gene expression. An indoor plant is at the all you can eat buffet. Outdoors, things are constantly changing. Temperature, RH, Light, it's in constant flux. There are moments of excess, then sudden cloud cover. It's just a lot more varied. Then of course we have the ground. Minerals that are not seen as required, and things in pockets, that need root growth spurts to reach. It's that TV or Gym thing.

I have been embarrassed by my outdoor plants taking off quicker outdoors, than batches still indoors for another week. I have stood with my light meter out the window, looking at the weather forecast, unable to really say why. It's like the 'house cat' that has long since given up trying to get out, and just lays on the floor broken. With no need to exercise it's true hunting potential.

 

[Loc Dog]

An old mum can be stuck in the ground outside, and pick up. I think it's going to be about gene expression. An indoor plant is at the all you can eat buffet. Outdoors, things are constantly changing. Temperature, RH, Light, it's in constant flux. There are moments of excess, then sudden cloud cover. It's just a lot more varied. Then of course we have the ground. Minerals that are not seen as required, and things in pockets, that need root growth spurts to reach. It's that TV or Gym thing.

I have been embarrassed by my outdoor plants taking off quicker outdoors, than batches still indoors for another week. I have stood with my light meter out the window, looking at the weather forecast, unable to really say why. It's like the 'house cat' that has long since given up trying to get out, and just lays on the floor broken. With no need to exercise it's true hunting potential.

Nurture effecting nature. Why I like clones is someone proved it could perform, but getting there is how it is grown. I have had various results with same clone.

 

[nomdeplume420]

I was told genetic drift WAS HPLVD. I have never heard of clonal decay and I myself have never experienced clones getting unhealthy over time knock on wood. I take clones from clones. For years on end.

 

[romanoweed]

I have the Strain: pure Gooey - Gooebreeder . Its a 50 years old Clone , then Backcrossed to Skunk. Skunkpercentage is ruffly 1/4 or rather 1/8..
I failed two years in our shurely unsuited Climate, but it should get the Job done atleast.. BUT it failed to reproduce them. It was the only strain that 50 percent Plants died in veg, i have to say in the worst summer-weather we ever had.. But it died in veg.. it was molding away, i couldnt even tell, but it wasnt a desease visible i vaguely guess.. it was just overall weak..

So, yes, extreeme long Cloning in my Case produces extreeme weakness in the Genetic imho, also the next normal year it died before finishing the seed-run i tried to make.. where other Strains survived well.

i also assume in good enviroments it wouldt have such prblems. the high is also there.. so.

 

[*GROWHIGH*]

i have personally seen notable loss of vigour and yield in a clone i used for nearly a decade ...but never really experienced one giving up the will to live ,..or producing a lesser finished product ......see this loss of vigour and yield in fruit trees without a doubt ....i have 2 cherry trees both planted at same time ... one from a seed germinated in 1940's......another from a 1980's seed .... 1980's is twice as vigorous ,,trunk twice as thick even tho planted side by side

 

[Loc Dog]

I have the Strain: pure Gooey - Gooebreeder . Its a 50 years old Clone , then Backcrossed to Skunk. Skunkpercentage is ruffly 1/4 or rather 1/8..
I failed two years in our shurely unsuited Climate, but it should get the Job done atleast.. BUT it failed to reproduce them. It was the only strain that 50 percent Plants died in veg, i have to say in the worst summer-weather we ever had.. But it died in veg.. it was molding away, i couldnt even tell, but it wasnt a desease visible i vaguely guess.. it was just overall weak..

So, yes, extreeme long Cloning in my Case produces extreeme weakness in the Genetic imho, also the next normal year it died before finishing the seed-run i tried to make.. where other Strains survived well.

i also assume in good enviroments it wouldt have such prblems. the high is also there.. so.

If a mother becomes infected with mold, fusarium, pythium, botrytis, etc., the high moisture required for cloning will let it go full blown. Out of 30 cuts from infected mothers, 1 clone from healthy looking tops survived for me recently. That plant was given actinovate (although very old) and looks great. Took 12 cuts and 6 died within days. At 2 weeks and see root nubs but roots have not come out of rockwool. Have very low confidence they will live. A lot of US clone sellers are selling mold infected clones that could die shortly after delivery, to a couple of months later. If the mold is from mother plant, will die from bottom up. If it gets in through pruning, will spread from point of entry. Will look like root rot, but roots are healthy. Bought from 2 different companies recently, strainly and seed canary, and both arrived as old clones with advanced stem canker from mold infected mothers. I am cynical, and wonder if these sellers know they are infected and will die shortly, long before anyone realizes they are fake genetics. Most only guarantee for 1 day, and some not even that. In USA Tumi has test for $40 that tests for HLVD and many strains of fusarium. Only issue for hobbyists is they only sell in 10 packs.

 

[troutman]

Yes, it's real.

It's called Evolution. It starts when the natural population gets subdivided and
selection forces take place. Selections can be Natural or Artificial (by man). In
time without a large population or new migrants the population genetics change.

 

[Hammerhead]

Ive not noticed any difference between the 1st seed plant to the clone I still run 14 years later. I do not keep moms. Always take cuts from the healthiest part of the plants. The fewer hands that have been on it the better. Clones from unhealthy plants are where it starts. Ive heard TC brings back vigor ?

 

[WingzHauser]

* Nutritional drift. Something as simple as Mg:Mn will change mono:sesquiterp ratios.

 

[LJ farming]

I just got back from vacation and really appreciate everyone’s input. I have decided from all the replies as well as my mentors advice that grew the same clone for almost 20 years that:
1: I fucked something up! (Hopefully not)
2: most likely HLVP

I only kept my 2 favorite genetics and everything else is starting from old school Badass seeds my mentor sent me. I also ordered a test for each of the 2 strains I kept and will report back as soon as I get the results. I would have liked to test every strain I had however each test is $25 and I decided to only test my winners!

Thank you for everyone’s input and I will report back as soon as I get the test results.

Peace out,

LJ

 

[Diggy_Soze]

Genetic drift… seems to refer to changes in gene frequency in populations over generations...

A better term could be the "not widely used" clonal decay.

* Nutritional drift. Something as simple as Mg:Mn will change mono:sesquiterp ratios.

These are your likely culprits, imho. (Assuming it’s not pathogenic.)
Nutritional drift would be better described as Phenotype Drift.

Your nutrients, your nutrient ratios, your light source, how often and how much you water. The temperature, the humidity, the change in temperature and humidity. There are just so many variables that will effectively change which phenotype is exhibited out of the genotype that you are growing.

let your clones outside in full sun, and feed your plants compost

An old mum can be stuck in the ground outside, and pick up. I think it's going to be about gene expression.

Yup.

When we take subpar clones and grow them in unnatural environments they can get, kind of, stuck in a rut. I would imagine this is an example of Clonal Decay.

The heavy UV and IR intensity of the sunlight seems to be part of the equation to fixing worn-out moms. Proper nutrition. Plus one thing all indoor environments are missing is cloud cover. I think there’s even evidence that the physical touch of the rain has significant benefits, but I won’t get weird on y’all… yet

I call it hormone therapy. I would bet dollars to doughnuts if you knew which phytohormones were out of wack you could supplement and bring a plant back to full health, indoors.

 

[kuku32]

i belive that if its a clone it will be the same always but you have to consider nutrition,lights,training like (supercrop,lollipop)harvest time,temperatures,soil,flushing,drying,curing.If you manage to have a standard enviroment the clone plant will be the same.

 

[*GROWHIGH*]

Loss of vigour with age is something irrefutably proven in the wine industry ..vines have a 20-year lifespan, then the yield starts to decline

 

[kuku32]

Loss of vigour with age is something irrefutably proven in the wine industry ..vines have a 20-year lifespan, then the yield starts to decline

We dont speak about vines.we speak about flowers.only speed changes at cannabis. quantity decrease no bud quality no also terpenes dont change if you grow with same equipment etc it will be almost identical to mama.Also you can change yield via vegging longer so clain.BTW i know vines very well cause i live in greece xD Vine is a total different story