Is coco runoff really not worth checking?

[inreplyavalon]

Snow Crash another informative post. Glad you're still around these parts. I got a question regarding flavorful. Is it something that can stay in a res and not turn the res yucky? I have been trying to find a concentrated humic/fulvic for a while now, solely to lower PH, and have not found one concentrated enough to do the job. Interested in giving the flavorful a try, but i need my res to last a good 5-7 days without turning nasty on me. Also does the PH remain stable when using said product? Thoughts? Thanks!

 

[Greeco]

Snow Crash another informative post. Glad you're still around these parts. I got a question regarding flavorful. Is it something that can stay in a res and not turn the res yucky? I have been trying to find a concentrated humic/fulvic for a while now, solely to lower PH, and have not found one concentrated enough to do the job. Interested in giving the flavorful a try, but i need my res to last a good 5-7 days without turning nasty on me. Also does the PH remain stable when using said product? Thoughts? Thanks!

Ful Power is one of the best fulvic/himic acids on the market. I hope you don't mind me answering =)

http://www.bioag.com/allotherstates.html

 

[Snow Crash]

Snow Crash another informative post. Glad you're still around these parts. I got a question regarding flavorful. Is it something that can stay in a res and not turn the res yucky? I have been trying to find a concentrated humic/fulvic for a while now, solely to lower PH, and have not found one concentrated enough to do the job. Interested in giving the flavorful a try, but i need my res to last a good 5-7 days without turning nasty on me. Also does the PH remain stable when using said product? Thoughts? Thanks!

With regard to all organic brews the amount of Oxygen provided via air stone or water movement is crucial to both the longevity of the solution as well as the decay rate of the nutrition is contains. Lots of O2 mixed into the water will keep anerobic (stinky) bacteria at bay. The trade off is that the good bacteria get super charged and start chewing through the nutrition in the reservoir that was intended for the plant. When it is all gone, they die off, and that shit gets stinky and slimy anyway.

While I have found the stability of Fulvic Acid over 24 hours to be very good it is my opinion that about 60 hours is as long as I would let a mixed reservoir brew. With Fulvic being, essentially, organic I think that it is not ideal as a long-period reservoir pH regulator. Definitely not longer than 3 days.

For someone like yourself I think that the Citric Acid crystals might work a little better although I cannot comment on their stability or how effective it is at dropping the pH with a little amount. Perhaps the Mad Farmer pH down, or TechnaFlora pH down, are better options. If to stay away from phosphoric acid based down and have a reservoir that lasts a week is the goal then those are the three products I would try, Fulvic is more of a mix it and use it kind of product.

On another note, many growers allow their water to rest for 24 hours to "off gas the chlorine." Truth is, most water doesn't even use chlorine anymore because the water company needs to ensure that the chlorine they do add doesn't off gas on the way to your house. What most water treatment programs utilize these days is called "chloramine" and it does not off gas.

Growers are actually doing themselves a disservice treating the water in this manner. While it is resting the temperature is going to rise and the Dissolved Oxygen levels will decline. Adding an air stone only helps the reservoir reach room temperature more quickly, while not doing much for the DO that the water actually contains. A common misdiagnosis is to see "epinasty" on the upper leaves (curling downwards) and interpreting the issue as a Nitrogen toxicity. Often times it is actually not enough O2 in the solution to support the large root system and we are cutting the Nitrogen when we should be decreasing solution temperature and increasing it's ability to retain dissolved oxygen. A solution temperature of 63 to 68 degrees is much more desirable than one which has reached room temperature (72 to 80 degrees).

If filtration is not an option (Small Boy with a KDF upgrade, or RO) then the best thing to do for an organic or bioponic grow is to give the Chloramine something to chew on, which converts it into a gas that will dissipate in 30 minutes. With just 1ml/gallon of Molasses, or a Humic acid, or forest humus (really, anything with organic molecules) and stirred into the water the chlorine and chloramine which are present will be reduced to a level where they cannot do any harm to your system in just 30 minutes. For the top feed DTW crowd that mixes their nutrients regularly you can save yourself a lot of trouble by just filling the reservoir, adding a teaspoon of "organic," (airstones don't hurt for such a short period of time) waiting 30 minutes, and then mixing and using the nutrients.

 

[inreplyavalon]

Interesting you say that an airstone does not do much in terms of adding DO to a reservoir. That is surprising at that is mostly what they are used for, i guess. I guess it depends on size and amount, of pump and airstones respectively.
I just learned how an airstone will sync up the res with the room air. In my case recently when brewing some tea in a 5 gallon bucket, it was challenging to get the tea into the 70's because the room was closer to 60. I even put a heat mat underneath the bucket but the continuous pumping in 60 degree air into the bucket seemed to win out over the heat mat.

Good to know about the Fulvic. I am going to discontinue that search. I run PBP and have no problem letting that circulate in a 70 gallon res for 6-7 days, with no airstones. I don't want to mess with that and dump potentially anaerobic causing ingredients in there. Mi lady was reading over my shoulder earlier and said we have citric acid crystals so maybe i'll give that a try. Or another one of those PH downs you mention.

No chloramine in our local water as far as i can tell. Unless it can be listed as 'chlorine" on a water quality report. I look at mine every year and the most recent being 2011 has no mention of chloramine. Good to know how to combat it if i ever come across it. Sure seems a lot easier than everyone(including me) letting there res' dissipate chlorine for 24 hours...

Thanks for the thought provoking response. Cheers

 

[SeaMaiden]

Many municipal water suppliers have stuck with chlorine, despite the EPA warnings.

I can discuss how to get DO up and maintained in a body of water that's used to house fish, and basically anything that causes surface turbulence allows for the CO2/O2 gas exchange to occur. Then it's a question of surface area to volume ratios, what the water is saturated with and how much. For example, saltwater holds less DO than freshwater, it's heavier and freezes at a much lower temperature. However, you can get even highly saline bodies saturated to equilibrium with O2 by simply using an air stone, properly.

As long as the surface is turbulent and the bottom is being mixed with the top, you're achieving at least some good DO status.

 

[inreplyavalon]

Thanks Sea Maiden.
I use the smallest pump available in a 70 gallon res and keep it circulating the water. I have never had any known issues from lack of O2 in my feed water.

I really want to address the runoff checking question. I think checking runoff levels in coco is a TERRIBLE way to figure out what is going on in the medium. I spent years misinterpreting signs because i was going off runoff readings. Now i use a slurry (2-1) test and its helped me to understand things greatly. It is all too common to get runoff readings above 2.5-3.5 EC when there is not enough food in the medium. Most growers would panic and flush. Strange thing is, the flush actually always seemed to help temporarily, almost giving them a fresh feeling, but of course they would still be starving. When i do a slurry test, the same pot that was running off at 3.0 EC will read a .6 EC. Increasing the nutrient strength then improves plant, much better than flushing or lowering it ever will. I feel the need to share this info every chance i get, so if you have heard this before from me, ignore it, cause your likely to again! Cheers and happy weekend y'all.

 

[habeeb]

I've read quite a few posts saying that checking the runoff EC and pH is pretty much pointless...but if coco really is "hydro"...why? Because the coco ion bank holds certain things that will mislead you?

Reason I ask is that right now I'm at day 20 in flower, feeding 1.5EC 5.8pH once a day (5 gallon pots) with 20%runoff to waste. When I check the runoff it's almost always at about 0.6EC.... Doesn't this mean the plants are eating like crazy and I should be feeding more? Then I look at the plants and they all have minute tip burn, the sign you are at max EC that the plants can handle.

What gives? I'm normally the DWC guy and when EC drops you give more food....so not sure about this whole coco stuff yet.

-coco is not hydro, nor will it ever be hydro

-20% runoff is making you waste money, and not needed by any standards

-in theory, yes by all means check runoff, it will give you a guideline where your at though, and that is all it should be used for.. not actual numbers but a baseline number to use if you modify your solution / pH ... but honestly is a waste of time 99% of the time, as what I just told you can be applied when mixing a solution

 

[MIway]

Thanks Sea Maiden.
I use the smallest pump available in a 70 gallon res and keep it circulating the water. I have never had any known issues from lack of O2 in my feed water.

I really want to address the runoff checking question. I think checking runoff levels in coco is a TERRIBLE way to figure out what is going on in the medium. I spent years misinterpreting signs because i was going off runoff readings. Now i use a slurry (2-1) test and its helped me to understand things greatly. It is all too common to get runoff readings above 2.5-3.5 EC when there is not enough food in the medium. Most growers would panic and flush. Strange thing is, the flush actually always seemed to help temporarily, almost giving them a fresh feeling, but of course they would still be starving. When i do a slurry test, the same pot that was running off at 3.0 EC will read a .6 EC. Increasing the nutrient strength then improves plant, much better than flushing or lowering it ever will. I feel the need to share this info every chance i get, so if you have heard this before from me, ignore it, cause your likely to again! Cheers and happy weekend y'all.

Been in the camp of checking run off with coir, but this current batch is confusing me... Getting really high pH where I previously only got really low... Like the last batch. Ec's don't appear off tho...?

What explains that the runoff could be holding the 5.0 hard, then another batch holding 7.0...hard...???


It just seems odd that you would such radical differences between slurry and runoff as well. Even if it doesn't matter to he end results (running with that for a moment)... What are you measuring at runoff that isn't leaching into the slurry?

I just don't get the chemistry of what we are noticing.

 

[Snow Crash]

-A media is a media. The nutrient program determines whether the elements are delivered organically or hydroponically. Coco can be used for either method depending on how the nutrition is provided.

-20% runoff is not all that much. If a 3 gallon planter requires 3L of solution daily then 1L of runoff would be 25%. If 1 gallon of solution costs between $0.15 and $0.20 then the runoff from one planter per day is between $0.03 and $0.05. At most, a 70 day flowering with 10 days of no nutes costs $3 per plant for 25% runoff. Possibly less. I waste more money at Taco Bell.

MIway, I am also not sure what you're seeing. One of those coco's is probably washing out more acidic stuff than the other but I couldn't tell you why. I've never seen anything over 7 or under 6 with runoff pH, but then again, I don't find the runoff pH to be very accurate. As long as things look good for both plants then there's nothing to fix.

 

[TribalSeeds]

This is why I dont check it.

 

[dalilguy]

I make sure my nutrient tank is at the numbers I want it to be an call it a day.. So long as my plants are happy. If they aren't I'll start lookin around.

 

[inreplyavalon]

I chased a 7.5 runoff PH for a while, trying to get it in my chosen range and did nothing but harm, once. I understand and adhere to the concept of letting them do their thing, but at times i try to experiment, like us all, and correct small(and HUGE) inconsistencies in the plants.
I have not had a plant give me readouts of being overfed since i began using the slurry instead of runoff. Everything has been underfed, telling me all things are firing. More food has been solving my problems for a good many rounds now. Sometimes tired plants are tired because they WANT MORE FOOD... Love having a forum to discuss these things, thanks gypsy.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

i can tell you this.. i check run off always... and ive had some shit hold on to high and low numbers... usually not so extreme to the 5.0 and 7.0's but 5.2-6.4's... I was starting to see some mag def which is always a sign of high ph for me and i checked my ph cause truthfully in veg i dont check runoff.... and what do you know 6.4 ph....

so when this situation happens... i feed a the lowest ph that is acceptable... 5.4 and continue that for the rest of the grow unless runoff goes down and the first 2 feeding my plants look perfectly healthy again....

if your at 7.0 feed 5.4.....

also not sure of the coco but i have had good luck with the pre rinsed bagged coco from canna or bcuzz

 

[StardustGardens]

I feed at 1.2ec always with a ph 6.0. I have never had runoff to check.
Should I go hurry and check it?
Spend a few hundred on a good meter. Keep it calibrated and always use it and you will never have a problem.
I think most of you get yourselves in trouble by over reacting to minor hick-ups and end up doing more damage trying to fix something you have no idea what you are trying to fix.
If I ever have a problem I check my meter first and if it's fine I just back off the nutes a wee bit and continue on.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

i find mostly this happens when i make up a batch of water ph and feed right away... especially with two parts... if i wait after i ph down to 5.8 about and hour or two my ph drifts up to 6.2-6.4 which is where my medium is stuck... so if i re PH it after that it stays... i beleive this is where im getting alot of my ph problems and might be the same for some of you...


just food for thought.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

-coco is not hydro, nor will it ever be hydro

-20% runoff is making you waste money, and not needed by any standards

-in theory, yes by all means check runoff, it will give you a guideline where your at though, and that is all it should be used for.. not actual numbers but a baseline number to use if you modify your solution / pH ... but honestly is a waste of time 99% of the time, as what I just told you can be applied when mixing a solution

i find this statement to be false. Coco can be ran like dirt or a hydro medium... most people never even see it ran as a hydro medium becuase they just dont know how to... if you can rootbound you plant you should be able to water 2-5 times a day, which in turn makes it a hydro medium and changes the growth speed tremendously.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

I chased a 7.5 runoff PH for a while, trying to get it in my chosen range and did nothing but harm, once. I understand and adhere to the concept of letting them do their thing, but at times i try to experiment, like us all, and correct small(and HUGE) inconsistencies in the plants.
I have not had a plant give me readouts of being overfed since i began using the slurry instead of runoff. Everything has been underfed, telling me all things are firing. More food has been solving my problems for a good many rounds now. Sometimes tired plants are tired because they WANT MORE FOOD... Love having a forum to discuss these things, thanks gypsy.

i find this quite interesting as i notice when i check ec of runoff and its high the plants stall... as soon as i flush back in range they take off again...

your slurry test is getting the medium wet waiting 10 mins or so then water to runoff and check? sorry if you told already in the thread but im being lazy this morning.

 

[inreplyavalon]

It just seems odd that you would such radical differences between slurry and runoff as well. Even if it doesn't matter to he end results (running with that for a moment)... What are you measuring at runoff that isn't leaching into the slurry?

I just don't get the chemistry of what we are noticing.

Yeah i hear you. I think it was Sea Maiden that explained (hypothesized) it in terms i understood. Something along the lines of, Checking runoff is akin to creating a concentration of salt pouring through the coco and then being concentrated in a small amount of water. I think of it as this. a square inch of coco has X amount of EC being held in it. When feeding to runoff we are taking X and multiplying it by as many square inches as we are saturating in the pot. Lots of square inches in my three gallons... So the end result is that the runoff being collected has been created by pulling cations from all through the pot and more often than not being concentrated in a small amount of runoff. I would guess that folks who get 20% runoff every feed and then check runoff will probably get much lower readings. I average between 0-5% runoff normally so the chemistry in my coco is likely different. I am certainly not saying others are incorrect, only that this has all been revolutionary in my growing experience and decision making.

POOPY. I tried to find the document on Canna's site that gives the exact directions of how to do a 2-1 extraction test, but no find it. I'll look again tomorrow but its basically close to this:

Fill a measuring cup with 150 ml of RO/distilled Water.
Then take moist Coir from as many places as you can in the pot of the plant being tested until you fill the above mentioned cup up to the 250 ml. line. ( i usually just pick one spot and take a vertical sample so i get the top bottom and middle of container while disturbing as few roots as possible)
Let sit for, its suggested 2 hours or more.(though i never notice any difference when i do 20 minutes or two hours)
Then strain the coco out of the solution.(also have never noticed a difference when i have strained or not strained)
Then measure the EC and PH of the leftover water.
According to canna you want it to be within .3 EC of about 1.3-1.4, if my memory serves me(it usually doesnt).
I have consistently been finding runoff of 2.5+ EC and extraction tests of .8-1.3 EC. One reason i believe the extraction method to be accurate is that when i test the plants directly under the light they always read a lower EC than the same strain on the perimeter. A lot of times i'll get a .6 reading, increase food, and plants health improves. Its so simple and really gives pretty solid info as to whats in the medium. This has helped me tremendously to understand that my plants are ravenous for more food and way more often deficient from lack of food, than from any lockout or overfeeding. Its also an indicator of PH, but i would suggest not trying to correct PH when its not in the range you want it to be, but instead just keep feeding in the range you want. Plants seem to have an inherent ability to regulate PH and to also uptake food when they want it, to a degree... of which i certainly dont have one in Botany

 

[Snow Crash]

This method is used to check the ec and ph values of a medium and useful when flushing. It is recommended by Canna and supported by Geary Coogler, B. Sci. Horticulture, HORTISOL North American Research.

The 1:1.5 Extraction Method

A reliable method for measuring the nutrient levels in coco coir is using the 1:1.5 extraction method. EC and pH of the root environment can be determined by using this method. The pH and EC of the drain water generally deviates from the actual root situation, as coco coir is able to retain and release elements.

1) Take a sample of coco. This can be done with a soil core sampler or a trowel. To get a representative sample the coco must be collected from as many places as possible.

2) Collect the sample in a bowl and determine whether it contains the right amount of moisture. The coco has the right amount of moisture if moisture disappears between your fingers when you squeeze it. Add de-mineralized water if necessary and mix the coco.

3) Take a ½ pint (250 ml) measuring jug and fill it with just over 4 fluid ounces (150 ml) of de-mineralized water. Add coco to the ½ pint (250 ml) mark.

4) Fully mix and allow the slurry to settle for at least two hours.

5) Mix again and measure the pH.

6) Filter this material out and measure the EC of the water remaining.

What is important is to regularly take measurements. Especially when things look fine. Track the readings. Do not take a reading occasionally, or only when the plant is ill, and try to make a reaction off of that. Watch for sudden changes in the runoff. Major drops or increases in either the EC or the pH of the runoff can be an indication of an issue to come but it is not something you can properly interpret until seeing the results. It is still necessary to be diligent in the collection of the data on a regular interval to construct a reliable record which can then be accurately interpreted even though the extraction method provides a greater deal of insight into the state of the coco.

It could be useful to collect this data:
The EC/pH of the solution
The EC/pH of the runoff
The EC/pH of the slurry

We cannot determine exactly how useful the data can be until we try and I think that for some people it is not as necessary as it is for others. I find it easiest to digest in a graph format to see the relationship between solution EC and runoff EC. It gives me the info I need but some might want more, some might want less. Coco is just too damn versatile.

It's all about collect and reflect. And the right ratios... That's like a whole different subject.

 

[inreplyavalon]

What is important is to regularly take measurements. Especially when things look fine. Track the readings. Do not take a reading occasionally, or only when the plant is ill, and try to make a reaction off of that. Watch for sudden changes in the runoff. Major drops or increases in either the EC or the pH of the runoff can be an indication of an issue to come but it is not something you can properly interpret until seeing the results. It is still necessary to be diligent in the collection of the data on a regular interval to construct a reliable record which can then be accurately interpreted even though the extraction method provides a greater deal of insight into the state of the coco.

Thanks for posting the method in Canna's words, or whoever came up with the wording written on their site.

Which method are you referring to above? "Major drops or increases in either the EC or the pH of the runoff" leads me to believe you are talking about checking runoff and not a slurry test.

I do not think it is necessary to check this on a regular basis, or to think that one test does not provide enough info to act. Every plant i have ever gotten a reading from, one reading, that had an EC of < .8 or so, improved with a stronger concentrated feeding of nutrient.
I can understand that if a grower is using runoff they need some sort of consistency in charting the runoff numbers, and consistency in feeding volumes, but a slurry is a slurry in my experience.
I do think it may be useful for a grower to understand how and what a plant is doing throughout its life cycle by taking regular slurries, but i also believe from my experience, that one slurry provides enough info to make an assessment with.