Input on my "water only" possible no-till soil mix

[highstandards]

Im looking to create a rich soil mix that I can use plain water on throughout, which at harvest time I can hopefully just top dress and then re-use, "no till" style. Or if not, I will at least recycle it.

I'm going to start this project with batches of about 35 cu ft of soil. So far, my mix is as follows:

1 part peat
1 part perlite (or possibly rice hulls, input needed here)
1 part vermicompost (most likely Agrowinn)

And to this base mix im thinking I will add:

10lbs kelp meal
10lbs alfalfa
5 lbs fish meal
5lbs fish bone meal
10 cups Dolomite lime
10 cups azomite
5 lbs crab shell meal

So I've got a few questions:
-what is lacking in my mix first off?
-any recommended adjustments on the amounts of amendments?
-will my current 10gal size Roots pots be big enough to use "no-till" style?
-what will I need to top dress with (or mix back into the soil) between rounds?
-will this mix be enough to carry my plants through a full 3.5-4 month veg/bloom cycle?
-I've got lots of Peruvian seabird guano. What are your thoughts on using this as a NP boost during flower?

Strains will be OG and Bubba Kush.

I am very much looking forward to creating a high quality, cost effective soil mix after spending some time here and learning all that I have from this forum already! Good riddance House&Garden and ridiculous hydro shop prices... Thanks in advance guys

 

[ClackamasCootz]

HS

By using Agrowinn worm castings you're guaranteed to have a well balanced soil. Very high quality.

Here are a couple of ideas:

10 cups Dolomite Lime

Maybe this would work for you:

2 cups Dolomite Lime
4 cups Limestone (sold as Scotts Super Sweet at Home Depot or Lowe's)
4 cups Gypsum (buy the version in the garden department at Home Depot or Lowe's)

10 cups Azomite

Since you have a source for their worm castings, maybe replacing the Azomite with Argowinn rock dust mix

Just an idea or two - diversity

CC

 

[Scrappy4]

Remember to give your mix some time for nutrient cycling before planting into it. I would not use it on shorties either. I know alfalfa is hot as a soil amendment, and I imagine fish meal is as well. No problems your ingredients look fine, just give it time.......scrappy

 

[Scrappy4]

HS

By using Agrowinn worm castings you're guaranteed to have a well balanced soil. Very high quality.

Here are a couple of ideas:

10 cups Dolomite Lime

Maybe this would work for you:

2 cups Dolomite Lime
4 cups Limestone (sold as Scotts Super Sweet at Home Depot or Lowe's)
4 cups Gypsum (buy the version in the garden department at Home Depot or Lowe's)

10 cups Azomite

Since you have a source for their worm castings, maybe replacing the Azomite with Argowinn rock dust mix

Just an idea or two - diversity

CC

Good call Cootz, especially the dolomite lime. My recycled soil took a big improvement when I stopped using it completely.......scrappy

 

[Sinkyone]

You are lacking nitrogen, cannabis uses a tremendous amount of it. It also thrives in mixes that have high organic matter (OM) I would add some compost or even a little composted manure in there. I would be a little skeptical about doing this style in a 10 gallon, I never go below a 25 gallon. The Peruvian guano would be a good addition for a bloom booster.

 

[siddhartha]

I would find Jersey Green Sand and worm castings. And a bit more nitrogen.
Have you read about "Super Soil"
Sidd

 

[highstandards]

HS

By using Agrowinn worm castings you're guaranteed to have a well balanced soil. Very high quality.

Here are a couple of ideas:

10 cups Dolomite Lime

Maybe this would work for you:

2 cups Dolomite Lime
4 cups Limestone (sold as Scotts Super Sweet at Home Depot or Lowe's)
4 cups Gypsum (buy the version in the garden department at Home Depot or Lowe's)

10 cups Azomite

Since you have a source for their worm castings, maybe replacing the Azomite with Argowinn rock dust mix

Just an idea or two - diversity

CC

Thanks CC, will do. Do all my proposed amounts look about right?

And as far as slow release nutrients that will help when I reuse the soil, should I add anything else?

So I need more nitrogen that what the fish and alfalfa will provide? I've also got Mexican bat guano if necessary, just didn't want to make the mix too hot

I will definitely let this mix sit out moist for a month or so before use too so no worries there.

Thanks for all the input so far everyone!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Thanks CC, will do. Do all my proposed amounts look about right?

highstandards

Argowinn's castings are among a small number of vermicompost producers on the West Coast which produce castings for their quality and not simply to reduce bio-mass which is the norm.

A month 'cooking time' with the seed meals and the changes in the liming sector and general mineralization you'll have a very healthy garden.

I would add 10 cups of Neem or Karanja meal (either one) which will give you a full range Elements as well as bio-pesticides and bio-fungicides. While it's not the best ones to work with, Down-To-Earth has added Karanja Seed Meal to their product list. They've had a Need Seed Meal product for a few years. It will work but the organic versions are better.

There is now a distributor on the west coast in Redmond, Washington that sells the organic meals in small amounts that might be best for you situation. Let me know if you'd like that information.

HTH

CC

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

When using a new soil mix, especially one that is meant to be "water only", I would test a plant from each strain for a week or two and make sure that the soil isn't too hot.

Also whenever I use more than 20% peat it seems like the soil has an aversion to water. I've been adding 5% vermiculite and it seems to help. Others have told me that clay will work well.

Instead of 1/3 perlite how about 10% pumice 10% coco croutons and 10% perlite. Just a thought. Wouldn't mind cutting down on the peat and adding some coco either.

 

[MrSterling]

HS

By using Agrowinn worm castings you're guaranteed to have a well balanced soil. Very high quality.

Here are a couple of ideas:

10 cups Dolomite Lime

Maybe this would work for you:

2 cups Dolomite Lime
4 cups Limestone (sold as Scotts Super Sweet at Home Depot or Lowe's)
4 cups Gypsum (buy the version in the garden department at Home Depot or Lowe's)

10 cups Azomite

Since you have a source for their worm castings, maybe replacing the Azomite with Argowinn rock dust mix

Just an idea or two - diversity

CC

I'm so confused here CC. I thought you were decidedly against dolomite lime or azomite(brand) in mixes?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I'm so confused here CC. I thought you were decidedly against dolomite lime or azomite(brand) in mixes?

I am decidedly against dolomite lime but it's very ingrained in the cannabis growing lexicon. Having a mixed 'lime' is best and by using Gypsum (Calcium & Sulfur) & Limestone (Calcium Carbonate) is a good starting point.

On the Secret Stuff thread, on the last page or so is a description of Dolomite lime and anyone can see where the challenge lies as far as availability.

Carbonates are not water soluble - ever. Basic concept in chemistry - Law of Solubility.

The Magnesium in Dolomite is Magnesium Carbonate. Same with Calcium Carbonate or any other Carbonate - they are not water soluble.

I thought by recommending Argowinn's mixed rock dust product that this would be a better option that a straight Aluminosilicate like Azomite (and a slew of other marketing names).

highstandards

RE: Peat

What Sphagnum peat product did you decide to go with?

 

[highstandards]

highstandards

Argowinn's castings are among a small number of vermicompost producers on the West Coast which produce castings for their quality and not simply to reduce bio-mass which is the norm.

A month 'cooking time' with the seed meals and the changes in the liming sector and general mineralization you'll have a very healthy garden.

I would add 10 cups of Neem or Karanja meal (either one) which will give you a full range Elements as well as bio-pesticides and bio-fungicides. While it's not the best ones to work with, Down-To-Earth has added Karanja Seed Meal to their product list. They've had a Need Seed Meal product for a few years. It will work but the organic versions are better.

There is now a distributor on the west coast in Redmond, Washington that sells the organic meals in small amounts that might be best for you situation. Let me know if you'd like that information.

HTH

CC

Thanks again! This is the kind of info I was hoping for. I will definitely incorporate one of those to into my mix as well. And that's great to hear about the worm castings! I feel lucky to be able to get my hands on 'em.

Yes, I definitely like that information, I'd much rather go through them then leave quality on the table. Thanks!

When using a new soil mix, especially one that is meant to be "water only", I would test a plant from each strain for a week or two and make sure that the soil isn't too hot.

Also whenever I use more than 20% peat it seems like the soil has an aversion to water. I've been adding 5% vermiculite and it seems to help. Others have told me that clay will work well.

Instead of 1/3 perlite how about 10% pumice 10% coco croutons and 10% perlite. Just a thought. Wouldn't mind cutting down on the peat and adding some coco either.

I'll definitely be allowing it to cook for a good while and then do a couple test plants. That's a great suggestion about diversifying the perlite too.

I am decidedly against dolomite lime but it's very ingrained in the cannabis growing lexicon. Having a mixed 'lime' is best and by using Gypsum (Calcium & Sulfur) & Limestone (Calcium Carbonate) is a good starting point.

On the Secret Stuff thread, on the last page or so is a description of Dolomite lime and anyone can see where the challenge lies as far as availability.

Carbonates are not water soluble - ever. Basic concept in chemistry - Law of Solubility.

The Magnesium in Dolomite is Magnesium Carbonate. Same with Calcium Carbonate or any other Carbonate - they are not water soluble.

I thought by recommending Argowinn's mixed rock dust product that this would be a better option that a straight Aluminosilicate like Azomite (and a slew of other marketing names).

highstandards

RE: Peat

What Sphagnum peat product did you decide to go with?

so much for azomite or dolomite then. I'm really not dead set on using them at all, if I can replace them with better options, and it sounds like I can for both. Definitely not afraid to change!

For the peat, I picked up a few bales of sunshines peat, canadian sphagnum. How is that?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

highstandards

Not that it matters as far as the soil mix, but are you talking about one of the Sunshine Mix versions or were you lucky enough to get their straight Sphagnum peat moss? And if you did, which specific product is it? In their straight Sphagnum product line are 4 products: Grade Blue, Grade Green, Grade Orange and Grade White

These designations have absolutely nothing to do with quality in any way. It has to do with the 'cut' of the material. Depending on which version you bought will make a 'slight difference' on hydrating the peat before adding it to the general mix. This is how it's done at soil mixing plants - hydrate the peat first and then the rest of the soil recipe is dropped into the hopper.

This company is larger than all of their competitors combined on the Canadian Sphagnum deal.

Talk to these guys about organic neem and/or karanja oils, meals, etc. Again there isn't a single difference between these two. Some say that the karanja meal and oil has a lower 'smell' - couldn't prove it by me.

 

[highstandards]

What are your thoughts on rice hulls instead of perlite, or along with?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I wouldn't drag a bag of perlite home even with a gun to my head. Not that it's a bad amendment - I'll leave that one on the table for others to snarf and growl over.

It's just that in order to get the 'good dude price' you have to buy the 4 c.f. bags and even when we had our nursery, I never, ever had a bag of perlite that didn't rip open and once this sh*t is loose - best wishes on getting it collected again. Especially if a wind is blowing.

I use rice hulls in our raised beds, container plants, etc. Good amendment and cheap if you buy it right.

CC

 

[highstandards]

highstandards

Not that it matters as far as the soil mix, but are you talking about one of the Sunshine Mix versions or were you lucky enough to get their straight Sphagnum peat moss? And if you did, which specific product is it? In their straight Sphagnum product line are 4 products: Grade Blue, Grade Green, Grade Orange and Grade White

These designations have absolutely nothing to do with quality in any way. It has to do with the 'cut' of the material. Depending on which version you bought will make a 'slight difference' on hydrating the peat before adding it to the general mix. This is how it's done at soil mixing plants - hydrate the peat first and then the rest of the soil recipe is dropped into the hopper

This company is larger than all of their competitors combined on the Canadian Sphagnum deal.

Talk to these guys about organic neem and/or karanja oils, meals, etc. Again there isn't a single difference between these two. Some say that the karanja meal and oil has a lower 'smell' - couldn't prove it by me.

I got the straight sphagnum peat moss, it's in a bag that looks just like this, not sure what color grade it is though, can u tell from this pic?http://www.sungro.com/products_displayBrand.php?brand_id=4

Thanks for that link! I'll get that ordered right away

 

[ClackamasCootz]

highstandards

You are the very first poster that has access to their professional lines. It's packed about 25 miles from here and it's a PITA to get this stuff.

Here's where the bitch comes in from gardeners working with raw Sphagnum peat moss vs. one of the 'blank potting soil bases' like Sunshine Mix, Pro-Mix, etc.

As you'll notice, the pack of the straight peat is very dense and requires that you break chunks away and then you have to bust it up as much as possible. These packs are for soil mixing operations where they have machines that accomplishes that - 'bale busters'

Since I doubt that you have $50,000.00 throw at soil mixing you have to do it the old fashioned way. Once you get the peat to the point you want it then you want to hydrate it. Ready to use mixes are pre-hydrated and they use a wetting agent (i.e. surfactant) to accomplish that. The main compound is the Saponins in these wetting agents. Saponins are the ingredients in toothpaste, shampoo, bath soap, laundry soap, industrial soaps, soft drinks because they make things 'foamy' and it's this foam that will allow you to fully hydrate the peat before adding the final ingredients.

Saponins are available from many plants and at the Sun Gro plant they use Yucca root powder which is available at a number of sources online. It may not be the best - there are two plant materials that have uber levels of Saponins - Horse Chestnut powder and Soap Nut Powder

Any of these materials are available from these guys and they have very fair pricing.

As far as Saponin levels in these here are some numbers for you:

Yucca extract contains approximately 40,000 ppm
Soap Nut Powder comes in at 150,000 ppm
Horse Chestnut Powder comes in at 250,000 ppm

Since you have a fair amount of peat to hydrate then I would suggest one of the last two. Regardless they will all work for you.

After you hydrate the peat you want to let it sit for a couple of days then check to see if you need to do some more spraying.

Dat's it.....

CC

 

[highstandards]

Great info! Yea, I used my mom's nursery's resale permit to get the peat from a wholesale crop production services dealer, as well as kelp meal. Glad to hear that that's the "good stuff"!

Any more details on how to dilute/apply the horse chestnut powder?

Also, where can I source rice hulls? And at what ratio are they used in your base mix?

Thanks again for the detailed info!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

HS

You should be able to buy rice hulls from the same source as the straight Sphagnum but before you do that, consider going to a landscape wholesale supplier (where landscapers get their bulk materials) and see if they don't have lava rock and perhaps Pumice.

You're going to be needing about 1.4 c.y. which is 36 bags of whatever amendment you go with. Buying bags is pretty nuts so see what they offer. Times are tough for that and other sectors of the retail services economy and cash talks.

But if you want rice hulls and the supplier doesn't carry them the call beer brewery suppliers that sell to the microbreweries. Rice hulls are used as a filter in the process but I couldn't tell you how it's used specifically. You could also ask them about spent rice hulls which are great to use as well.

See if your supplier can get you Pumice in totes (1 c.y.) save money.

Renting a cement mixer on mixing day wouldn't be a bad idea either. Pretty cheap rates at Home Depot, et al.

CC

 

[Dkgrower]

I would not skip out on the dolomit esp when u use that much sphagnum...

Plus add some compost and composted manure

Topdress that guano when the first budding start

woodash is also a good PK booster and fore free if u know some1 with a fireplace