Input needed! Clones of clones or mothers?

[anferneybra]

Hey fellas,

Its a simple scenario, either keep mothers and take clones for years from her(what I have done for years) or take clones of clones of clones etc. forever.

Will the clones of clones lose virility? Potency? anything else? has science or experiments proven this?

I am having this debate at work with a guy and basically everyone I have talked too agrees that keeping the mother closest to seed is the best bet. This guy however, admits to taking clones of clones and seeing no problems.

Input is much appreciated!

Mr. T

 

[gloryoskie]

Keep your room super clean if using long term mums.

Clones from clones good for me, the plant has no idea
how close to original seed it is. Lost potency a result
of virus, poor growing habits. Unless, of course, you're
perfect.

Science says no loss of genetic potential in cloning clones.

I flower out my mums after a few months, seems just.

Please let us know what you decide to do.

 

[Kush Technician]

I don't think it makes a difference. Keeping mother plants long term does require more work to keep the plants in veg stasis as stress-free as possible, and a little more maintenance work in general, like repotting, training, trimming roots, pruning, flushing, etc.

I prefer to take clones from the vegging plants, since I usually need to top the veg before flipping. I get at least one clone per vegging plants which assures there will be plenty for next round. I may keep only 2 or 3 of each strain and then make mini moms that will be ready to clone by the time the first round is ready to come down.

 

[STUNKY]

Apples or oranges? I prefer mums.. No trouble. Keep them bonsai in DWC.. Never repot or trim roots. Hey if it not broke don't fix it.
If the plant is keep heathy u won't notice drift.. Screw the plant up and take clones of that and u will tell.

 

[Cannabologist]

Every time I see this question pop up I wonder who was the lying fuck was that started all this shit and leads to this question coming up every month.

Clones won’t lose anything, they are clones. Only you can fuckup a clone, it can’t fuck up itself, it doesn’t work that way. There are people running clones for easily well over 25 years, no changes.

Everyone else simply doesn’t know genetics when they say things about seed, mom plants, etc., a clone (technically a cutting) IS a mother plant. You take a cutting, it's a clone, it grows roots, its now a mom, same as the plant the cutting came from.

People who say this can't happen are lying/dumb/nuts.

Like people who say "I had this strain for x time, and so did my friend, and then all at the same time all the moms and clones died, and they died in my friend's place at the same time too. The genes must have run out".

Ever hear this story? Read it on icmag? I have too, and it is NONSENSE. Have you EVER heard of that happening in real life? Do twins suddenly drop dead at the same time because their genes run out of telomeres? Do you think the people telling you that crap even know how telomeres work at a rudimentary level? I can bet they never even took genetics in high school, forget stepping foot in a college class room. Funny how this seems to happen with cannabis yet not with any other plant species on earth, and most studies seem to suggest plants endlessly replenish their telomeres with telomerase...

 

[MileHighGuy]

 

[anferneybra]

Thanks for some input.

Basically what I have gotten from here, friends and sources in the world of botany is this.

A cutting is a identical copy of the plant it was taken from, a snapshot if you will, of that plant at the point it was cloned.

That being said, if the plant being cloned is being stressed in any way, the cutting will suffer and can run into problems(drift, mutation, disease). That being said, either cloning from mothers or clones of clones, the importance of the clone giving plant's health is paramount.

I was needing to clear the air for this debate at work, and it turns out we are both right. Cloning from mothers and clones both works. I personally like mothers better, gives me peace of mind haha. To each their own I guess, just like growing everyone has their own way of doing things!

Mr. T

 

[bugman52]

I grown from clones for years, there just as good now as they ever was

 

[AntiSpinx]

I have kept my big bang genetics for 18 months~ utilizing this process. That being, perpetual cloning of clones. Doing so has shown no detrimental effects to the growth or potency.

Absolute proof will be shown when you do it first hand.

 

[Hammerhead]

I don't keep moms anymore. takes up to much space. I take cuttings of the plants I want to keep going..

 

[shaggyballs]

Every time I see this question pop up I wonder who was the lying fuck was that started all this shit and leads to this question coming up every month.

Clones won’t lose anything, they are clones. Only you can fuckup a clone, it can’t fuck up itself, it doesn’t work that way. There are people running clones for easily well over 25 years, no changes.

Everyone else simply doesn’t know genetics when they say things about seed, mom plants, etc., a clone (technically a cutting) IS a mother plant. You take a cutting, it's a clone, it grows roots, its now a mom, same as the plant the cutting came from.

People who say this can't happen are lying/dumb/nuts.

Like people who say "I had this strain for x time, and so did my friend, and then all at the same time all the moms and clones died, and they died in my friend's place at the same time too. The genes must have run out".

Ever hear this story? Read it on icmag? I have too, and it is NONSENSE. Have you EVER heard of that happening in real life? Do twins suddenly drop dead at the same time because their genes run out of telomeres? Do you think the people telling you that crap even know how telomeres work at a rudimentary level? I can bet they never even took genetics in high school, forget stepping foot in a college class room. Funny how this seems to happen with cannabis yet not with any other plant species on earth, and most studies seem to suggest plants endlessly replenish their telomeres with telomerase...

............................................................
...........................................................

I know nothing of genetics but I too have cloned a clone off a clone for many years.

I even had a lot of stress issues and had a stressed mother that had stressed clones, that crop sucked.
But the stressed clones were cloned and those clones were nursed back to good health and produced as they should.
And still do!!!

I personally take the top cola from each clone let it grow and take the top cola from that clone ect.

One thing I know for sure is a plant of optimal health makes a ultra healthy cutting.

A cutting of strain x that is ultra healthy will root faster than unhealthy strain x clone, the faster a cutting roots the faster it will start rapid growth.
Doubling the size of a slower to root unhealthy strain x clone.Ultimately doubling your yield.Given the same time frame. And all cuttings are the same strain

It does not matter whether the clones were taken from a large mother or a 12 in. plant.

Some plants are infected with a systemic disease and the grower is unaware of it.
Which causes the grower to think the genetics may have mutated because the systemic disease is passed from clone to clone.
Resulting in decreased yield due to unhealthy plants.

EDITED DUE TO POST BELOW

 

[Hammerhead]

strain dependent IMO.. All of my plants are healthy some root faster then others. The GG roots the fastest. The SD roots the slowest..

 

[DevilWeedSeeds]

I think it all comes down to how many clones you need and how fast. If you're running clones of clones you're going to need veg time. If you need a large amount of clones in a short time frame clones of clones aren't going to cut it. They take time to veg out for cloning. A good bonsi mom can give lots of cuttings every two weeks or so. It's going to take 14 days maybe a bit less, just to get a clone to root. One must also look at the chances that the clone could die after the mom is in the flowering room thus holding things up even longer. I think clones of clones is a bit riskier for new growers.

 

[The Hatter]

Clones do get old and will lose vigor regardless of whether you keep a mother plant or take a clone of a clone. The heart of the problem is very simple, old age. Like all living things, as our beloved plants age they slowly accumulate genetic defects during the countless times their cells split and reproduce over the years. Think of a human being. A human at age 90 has the same DNA blueprint as they did when they were 20 yet the 20 year old will always outperform the 90 year old version. The same is roughly true of plants.

There is the potential for a slightly quicker aging and degradation of the cut if you keep taking clones of clones simply because when people use this method, each time they take the new clone it is after the plant has been forced through very rapid growth in veg. Where as with a mother plant, people tend to leave them in intentionally poor growing conditions such as low nutes and low light so they both grow and age more slowly.

The shorter the plants natural life would have been, the faster the cut will show its age.
At one extreme you have Ruderalis strains which really can't be forced to live beyond the single very short growing season they have adapted to live their entire lives within since they originate from very high latitudes with short growing seasons.

Indicas cuts age much better than the Ruderalis, but they still are not naturally long lived plants since most originate from temperate latitudes with harsh winters. From what I have seen a very indica leaning cut will tend to go noticeably downhill after about 5 years or so and at 10 years its very evident that the plant isn't what it used to be. When a cut gets old it usually won't effect the quality that much but rather the vigor of the plant. You end up having to veg it longer and longer to get the same yield you used when they were young.

Tropical sativas which naturally have life spans that are not limited to a single growing season are not surprisingly the cuts that age best. I have heard of old tropical sativa cuts that are literally decades old and still alive and kicking.

Hybrids tend to fall somewhere between pure indicas and sativas.

 

[MileHighGuy]

Clones do get old and will lose vigor regardless of whether you keep a mother plant or take a clone of a clone. The heart of the problem is very simple, old age. Like all living things, as our beloved plants age they slowly accumulate genetic defects during the countless times their cells split and reproduce over the years. Think of a human being. A human at age 90 has the same DNA blueprint as they did when they were 20 yet the 20 year old will always outperform the 90 year old version. The same is roughly true of plants.

There is the potential for a slightly quicker aging and degradation of the cut if you keep taking clones of clones simply because when people use this method, each time they take the new clone it is after the plant has been forced through very rapid growth in veg. Where as with a mother plant, people tend to leave them in intentionally poor growing conditions such as low nutes and low light so they both grow and age more slowly.

The shorter the plants natural life would have been, the faster the cut will show its age.
At one extreme you have Ruderalis strains which really can't be forced to live beyond the single very short growing season they have adapted to live their entire lives within since they originate from very high latitudes with short growing seasons.

Indicas cuts age much better than the Ruderalis, but they still are not naturally long lived plants since most originate from temperate latitudes with harsh winters. From what I have seen a very indica leaning cut will tend to go noticeably downhill after about 5 years or so and at 10 years its very evident that the plant isn't what it used to be. When a cut gets old it usually won't effect the quality that much but rather the vigor of the plant. You end up having to veg it longer and longer to get the same yield you used when they were young.

Tropical sativas which naturally have life spans that are not limited to a single growing season are not surprisingly the cuts that age best. I have heard of old tropical sativa cuts that are literally decades old and still alive and kicking.

Hybrids tend to fall somewhere between pure indicas and sativas.

This is bro science at it's best.

I don't even know where to start, pretty much everything you said is wrong.

Do us all a favor, before you post back stating that you are smarter and this is all 100% accurate.

Go get some proof.

Just Stahp.

 

[Phaeton]

Dang, I guess I am only imagining I get high on the Northern lights (indica) that I have been cloning since 1993.

The only part I am not sure is wrong about the post is the statement that people deliberately grow their mother plants poorly.
I doubt this is a general rule but I do not know for sure, I believe the poster himself would hurt his plant but doubt it is commonplace for the general public to want sick plants. I could be wrong, I have seen some pretty bad grow operations...

I find this is common with Marijuana, it is a magic plant and all the rules of botany do not apply. Why people believe this is unfathomable.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Stoner logic sometimes prevail and trump facts on these threads...it never ceases to amaze me, but sometimes you gotta wonder why? But I keep reminding myself, not all of us have the same goal.

A plant's heredity is not just "genome based", we forget how "environment forces" play a major role as well.

Many cancers are as result of "environmental forces"--they have nothing to do with "genetics". So, taking this to the plant world, to suggest that because a 5 year old mother is older, it must also be more pure--therefore more vibrant, when comparing it to a clone-of-a-clone, of-a-clone, of-a-clone, of-a-clone, of-a-clone, of-a-clone, of-a-clone....is silly. You are ignoring the effect "environmental forces" have, and that variable is a rather powerful "wild card".

The key to cloning is having a "healthy plant"--if the plant is fertile and has all the nutrients it desires, then cuttings will be superior (period). Me, I clone from both mothers and from plants before they go into the flower--and have been blessed with bountiful harvests from both.

Cheers!

 

[Luxman]

plants endlessly replenish their telomeres with telomerase...

HEALTHY plants endlessly replenish their telomeres with telomerase. Severely stressed or diseased plants should be restored to full health before new cuttings are taken, though. But that's kind of a no brainer. I fully agree with you, though.

 

[The Hatter]

This is bro science at it's best.

I don't even know where to start, pretty much everything you said is wrong.

Do us all a favor, before you post back stating that you are smarter and this is all 100% accurate.

Go get some proof.

Just Stahp.

All I said is that plants age which is pretty well documented. That and plants that naturally don't live very long age more quickly relative to ones that naturally live longer. Compare a thousand year old marigold to a thousand year old tree for instance. Oh wait... there are no thousand year old marigolds because their genetic program is designed for them to live about 8 months.

The other things I said were:

Auto flowering plants don't serve as very long lived stock for cloning. (I have never seen anybody keep an auto flowering plant successfully in clone form for more than a single growing season. Have you?)

I also said I think Indicas clones tend to down hill faster than tropical sativas. This is just something I have observed in my own little circle of friends. I know several people who have grown indica cuts for long periods of time and the vigor of those cuts gradually decreased over the years until the growers finally just replaced them because they just wouldn't yield like they used to without considerably longer veg times.

As for tropical sativas degrading the most slowly, the reason I believe this is simply because the oldest still viable clones I know of are tropical sativas and there is the simple fact that the tropical landrace strains are the only cannabis that naturally lives more than single season. It's the same reason that you tend to find the continual flowering trait in equatorial strains.

Given, my personal experience constitutes a rather small sample size which is always a bad thing when it comes to drawing conclusions from observations, but if you have an issue with the validity of something I have said I am all ears as for why you believe it was incorrect. Have you ever seen a 10 year old auto clone or a 30 year old indica clone that still produces like it used to? Or do you know of a pure equatorial sativa clone that went rapidly down hill as it aged? I'm not being sarcastic when I say this. I am legitimately interested in hearing of examples contrary to what i have seen.

 

[The Hatter]

Dang, I guess I am only imagining I get high on the Northern lights (indica) that I have been cloning since 1993.

The only part I am not sure is wrong about the post is the statement that people deliberately grow their mother plants poorly.
I doubt this is a general rule but I do not know for sure, I believe the poster himself would hurt his plant but doubt it is commonplace for the general public to want sick plants. I could be wrong, I have seen some pretty bad grow operations...

I find this is common with Marijuana, it is a magic plant and all the rules of botany do not apply. Why people believe this is unfathomable.

Re-reading my initial comment, I see I did a poor job of describing what I meant. I don't intentionally hurt or abuse my mother plants nor do I know of anyone who does this. In fact if you have a sick mother plant the clones it produces will also be sickly in my experience. I just keep them under weaker lights and fertilize them less than plants I have in veg and flower. My experience is limited to the small number people I know but they all tend keep their mothers in less intense growing environments than the veg and flower rooms because they don't have the space or need for fast growing 8 ft tall mother. I imagine in a large scale grow where you are literally taking dozens of cuts from a mother each cycle that this may not be the case.

I'm curious about your Northern Lights cut. Does it still grow as fast as it used to? The main thing I saw which changed with my buddy's cuts was simply that they vegged and grew more slowly as the years went by. The end product didn't really seem to change much. When they finally replaced the cuts it was not because they produced less potent smoke, but simply because they didn't like how long they needed to veg them to get the yields they used to get.