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Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
All you need for a stable F1 is a stable parental line or two. Some breeders call stabilised lines also IBL (even if that is not scientifically correct).

If you take a male and a female from the same stable line and cross them, the offspring will be an F1 but because it is the same line, you can also name it P2 (assuming that the parents are from the same generation and would get the rather arbitrary label P1 as first parent generation). Cross the siblings or cross back to a parent will always result in the same stable line ;) . That's what you do to maintain a landrace variety like Hindu Kush or Durban Poison once it's been selected and adapted for indoor or a simple fibre hemp variety. But, the higher the variability within the line (that isn't the same variability like the one from two different lines...) the healthier your plants. It's better to use several plants for such a cross and avoid inbreeding depression.

If you take two closely related stable lines, you get a stable F1 as well and the offspring is likely similar to the parents. The only two reasons I can see not to do this is A) you don't get something new and exciting, just a mix of the parents with slight differences and B) due to the close relation of the parents the F1 will not profit from a great heterosis effect (aka hybrid vigour). That doesn't need to be bad, a good cross is still good without that (likely even better if the parents start showing inbreeding depression; every little bit of heterosis is better than non).
One can only guess what you have to cross to get the best heterosis effect and that's why people often take very different parents (like from different continents or an indica with a sativa) and thereby increase their chances.

If you like Blueberry, why not buy two from two different breeders so that you get some differences between the parents and then cross them? The offspring will still be a BB like you know it but with a slight boost of hybrid vigour if the parents were bred tightly for several generations. If the parents were very healthy, then you simply get a healthy BB as well, day saved :D .

Lets say that your NL is only available as clone or you just have one mother, you could self it. That way, the offspring will be very similar to the mother. One or two generations of selfing shouldn't cause too much troubles with a healthy parent... there won't be any profit from heterosis and if you keep on doing the selfing for some more generations, you end up with crap but one seed run to get your 100 seeds for the next 10 years will be no problem. Many commercial fem strains are actually S1's.

Just cross your plants, get some seeds and see what grows. How hard can that be? Even if you get 4 different phenos and only one is worth it; trash the others, the seeds didn't cost you anything. Would be good though if you could recognise the bad phenos at an early stage to safe time, space and light :) .
 

Adze

Member
F1

F1

Only Ornamental, not quite: "If you take a male and a female from the same stable line and cross them, the offspring will be an F1."
DEFINITION OF F1 GENERATION
F1 stands for Filial 1, the first filial generation seeds/plants or animal offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Thanks for the nitpicking :D .
I know, it would be a parental or P generation as well, like I stated later in that post. But this is all pure nomenclature; the principles and practical aspects concerning the questions remain the same, that's why I intentionally used the wrong term. (I thought to myself 'no one will remark that'... LoL)
Besides, Mendel's peas were from the same species only differing in one allele for flower colour and we call both parental lines P1 and the offspring F1 etc. It's one single point mutation! (I can be nitpicking too, you know.) :)
 

Adze

Member
It seems to me that a correct understanding of the term F1 is fundamental to the understanding of genetics. It's role in heterosis or hybrid vigor is not often well understood. For cash croppers interested in fairly uniform plants that are notablely more vigorous the idea should be of particular interest. It is one of the reasons that maintaining the inbred lines and land races is so important to the future of cannabis breeding.

By all means lets nit-pick the hell out of this until we all get a really clear understanding of just exactly what these terms mean.:biggrin:
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Hush...

I'd like to suggest you get a cannabis breeding book.

You'd be wise to not take any information if it'sgoing to be intentionally leading you in the wrong direction.

Technicalities are very important for a solid nderstanding of any plant breeding project.

That said...
F1 is the result of crossing two distinct lines and is always considered a hybrid. Almost all the seed on the market today are F1s.

F2 and beyond are generational sibling crosses whereby a chosen brother is crossed to chosen sisters.
If you choose plants from different generations (F3 x F6 for example) you get a back cross.

To stabilise a line takes planning and diligent pheno searching. It short, it takes lots of time.

Your best bet, imo, would be to find a strain or few that you think you would like, research and grow them. It does not matter if IBL or polyhybrid. Get enough seed that you can explore the possible phenotypic combinations. There are more than two phenos with most packs of seed, including supposed IBL lines. Take your two or three or four favorite females and hit 'em w some pollen from a good looking, smelling male and watchbthr magic happen. Seeds are my bestest friends. Vegi seeds too.

Read all the material you can about breeding. Once you begin to absorb it you'll be able to recognise when you're being taken for a ride or not. There are a lot of good articles by reputable breeders all over this place calked ICMag. Look at the stickies in the various breeder forums ;)
 

hush

Señor Member
Veteran
Thank you very much for that, that was very helpful. I will take your advice to heart. Do you recommend a particular cannabis breeding book?
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I've got Greg Greens book CANNABIS BREEDER'S BIBLE, Ed Rosenthals latest grow book, & Oaksterdam text book, MARIJUANA GROWERS HANDBOOK, but my favorite is DJ Shorts CULTIVATING EXCEPTIONAL CANNABIS. I lost my book from Soma. It had some good tips as well.

Most, if not all, of DJs book is online.
 

Rinse

Member
Veteran
I've got Greg Greens book CANNABIS BREEDER'S BIBLE, Ed Rosenthals latest grow book, & Oaksterdam text book, MARIJUANA GROWERS HANDBOOK, but my favorite is DJ Shorts CULTIVATING EXCEPTIONAL CANNABIS. I lost my book from Soma. It had some good tips as well.

Most, if not all, of DJs book is online.

Dont forget RC Clarkes Marijuana Botany.

 

Jubei

Member
I would say anyone who breeds out to a F5 or higher. For example Serious Seeds does this with their whole line. Also Sagamartha and Sensi do some this as well, but I am sure there are many others.
 

bobblehead

Active member
Veteran
How about a legit college level biology 101 text written by real scientists? Then maybe you'll know when you're being taken for a ride or not... ed rosenthal? Lol...
 

oldchuck

Active member
Veteran
How about somebody coming up with some actual genuine IBL strains. Inquiring minds want to know.

How about Satori from Mandela? Skunk #1? Afgan #1 from Seedsman?
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
How about somebody coming up with some actual genuine IBL strains. Inquiring minds want to know.

How about Satori from Mandela? Skunk #1? Afgan #1 from Seedsman?
Hi Oldchuck,
There's no 'actual genuine IBL' on the commercial market because the product would be too weak... Look at reports on Tom Hill's Deep Chunk: To me it seems like this one is going down the drain (genetic bottleneck) due to a too long and tight line breeding (and not even inbreeding!). From a logical point of view (not from personal experience!) this happens with every cannabis variety kept for so long in a pure form if you can't grow them large scale.

Skunk is a +/- stable but healthy line bred variety (because it was grown large scale at least in the beginning) and by no means an inbred line. There are actually several different selections available. On a breeding level, one could maybe compare the earlier generations of Skunk #1 with Finola (lol).
It is like with many crops and vegetables, a 'stable' cultivar like cauliflower is recognisable as such even after several generations but each plant is a little different from the others... actually rather close to landraces or heirloom species; plain good old agricultural varieties, nothing more and nothing less. Today, agriculture uses more and more F1's alongside established varieties but only the cheap and greedy knock off unstable F2 and F3 versions.
Satori seems to show several different phenotypes, so no IBL.
From what I can guess, Afghani strains are more or less worked landraces or local varieties likely with a narrower gene pool than their 'agricultural' ancestors but still no IBL.

If you really seek an actual genuine IBL, go with lab mice strains like BALB/c or Black 6 :D . The first are white, very friendly but stupid, the latter are black and freaking aggressive. And both, in spite of great efforts and care taken during the inbreeding and selecting work, have severe deficiencies mainly regarding the immune system. Keep them outside and they'll catch a cold and die soon after...


Better people were looking for stable lines, that's all what's needed without the drawbacks of an IBL. Inbred lines in real live usually have only a certain validity and use in science, research, and biotech but not in an 'agricultural environment'.
 

oldchuck

Active member
Veteran
Thank you, OO. My horticultural knowledge is slim so please keep educating me.

Okay, I guess I am not after IBL varieties. What I want are "stable lines." A stable line is like an heirloom variety? I grow mostly heirlooms of veggies and grains and I save seeds that yield pretty much like the parents. That's basically what I am looking for in Cannabis seeds but, given all the hype and BS in the seed market who can tell what's what?
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
...What I want are "stable lines." A stable line is like an heirloom variety? I grow mostly heirlooms of veggies and grains and I save seeds that yield pretty much like the parents. That's basically what I am looking for in Cannabis seeds but, given all the hype and BS in the seed market who can tell what's what?
Heirloom varieties can either be (semi-)cultivated landraces like those from the Himalayas or the old seed strains developed before the '70-'80 (that's about the time frame for veggies to become a heirloom I guess... you may know more bout that than I do). Cannabis needs maybe more variations and genetic diversity to thrive so these varieties, although not 'unstable', are likely less consistent than you're used from your heirloom veggies. But the worked landraces you find at most seed banks should be pretty stable and represent (if the breeder did a good job) the 'true essence' of the landrace: the most distinctive, best, and most beautiful representatives in the eye of a grower. If they show some phenos, be glad because then it's not a too worked line and you don't risk loosing too much vigour when doing a few generations yourself ;) .
If a breeder calls his line IBL, than it should be stable even if it's only an F5... but the younger and less inbred a line, the stronger the plants (theoretically). It doesn't take inbreeding to get a stable line; ask the big and famous breeders :) .
I'd expect all the old varieties to be rather stable no matter what the breeders did... but that could be an error as well...
 

oldchuck

Active member
Veteran
I'm down with genetic diversity. And I like open pollination. But, I'm wondering about the contradiction between genetically diverse open pollination and improving varieties using selection, back crossing, selfing, etc. One would seem to exclude the other.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
One would seem to exclude the other.
And now guess why not everyone is a good breeder and why even good breeders can't put a dozen new and great varieties on the market each year :D .
Breeders have two choices:
A: Either line breeding (with a little bit of inbreeding like making a selected F2 or a selfing to facilitate the start and narrow it down quickly) and doing a lot of work during several years. A good line will be gold because of its stability and vigour despite the dwindling genetic diversity. But it's not obvious that one succeeds. The breeder needs to select for some traits while keeping others (invisible ones most of the time) diverse. One strategy is to breed several lines in parallel and cross them as soon as the lines start to get weak (resulting in pseudo-F1's but might throw you back less), another is cubing where you back-cross to both parents from time to time...
B: Selling F1's. All you need to do is a lot of different crosses to find the ones with the best result because not all combinations result in hybrid vigour and augment those traits breeders seek. That may take as much time and space as the older method but in my honest opinion needs only good parental lines and less skill and luck (but I'm not a breeder).
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
Thank you, OO. My horticultural knowledge is slim so please keep educating me.

Okay, I guess I am not after IBL varieties. What I want are "stable lines." A stable line is like an heirloom variety? I grow mostly heirlooms of veggies and grains and I save seeds that yield pretty much like the parents. That's basically what I am looking for in Cannabis seeds but, given all the hype and BS in the seed market who can tell what's what?

What you want are lines created & maintained as seed varieties that still show some desirable variation. Done with that in mind, back crossing & inbreeding narrow variation. Taken too far, vigor suffers. The whole idea runs contrary to the modern concept of hybridization, selection & clone propagation, although those techniques are used in the establishment of such lines.

Commercial growers using clone propagation don't care if the genetics are stable or not. The mother plants they want are the exception rather than the rule within a given batch of seeds. The greater the variation, the greater the chances of having exceptional individuals. Or so it seems to me.

I, too, am interested in having & disseminating relatively stable & predictable seed varieties. Seeds I've acquired with that in mind include cantaloupe skunk, eldorado, double fun & santa maria. I also have autoflowering Spyder, which looks to be a stabilized line. Others that interest me include yumbolt, maple leaf, pck, panama & queen mother. Skunk#1 & some other old lines fit in there, as well. Northern Lights if you like it, which I don't particularly. I'm sure there are others like X-18 & some of the dutch haze hybrids.

As you say, it's hard to tell w/o first hand experience, breeder descriptions being what they are. Obvious F1's are clearly not what we want.
 

paladin420

FACILITATOR
Veteran
Bodhi and CannaVenture have IBL's of Blockhead. IBL being the term used ;)

I can't speak to all the wisdom posted above cause I need to reread and check my notes as to WTF!!!
Great thread guys!
@only? nice hemp thread n link thanks
 
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