HPA Aeroponics for Commercial Production

[queequeg152]

So when you see an HPA plant grow faster next to your DWC... what would that tell you? try it, then talk shit. but you are nothing to anyone in this thread with your 3lb DWC setup.. what a joke.

wait, no argument for saving so much money on a large scale? didnt think so mister math.

the fact remains that HP aero has, as to my knowledge, yet to demonstrate any qualitative advantage, let alone one so extreme as to merit your shitty smug attitude.
but if you know something i don't, please post links.

a simple side by side with a non sabotaged sprinkler type aero system would satisfy myself personally.

 

[Mad Lab]

the fact remains that HP aero has, as to my knowledge, yet to demonstrate any qualitative advantage, let alone one so extreme as to merit your shitty smug attitude.
but if you know something i don't, please post links.

a simple side by side with a non sabotaged sprinkler type aero system would satisfy myself personally.

I have already posted links.

What links do you want? Controlled grows with a comparison of ALL mediums grown side by side to other mediums?

There isnt many PERIOD. and the ones that exist on IC on nowhere near proper controled side by side grows. I doubt one is. You cant measure by pictures in a thread, its just not science.

What you can do is read about what having 99% osmosis does for a plant.

What you can do is read about bioavailability of nutrients and what increasing availability does for a plant.

What you can do is read about how allowing more control of the environment around the root zone, (unlike other plant growth systems constantly surrounded by some medium )(as, for example, with hydroponics, where the roots are constantly immersed in water), does for a plant.





And I am hung up on costs. This thread reads commercial. Like I said, you dont have be a businessman, but this thread is really for them.

And sometimes you have to give smug answers to smug statements. This thread is not the "I dont know anything about HPA, but i can talk alot of shit about it".

If you have nothing to contribute, please find another thread to be smug in. If you have MUCH experience and wish to talk about why you failed and maybe ways to overcome the issues, thats different.

Do the research so we can have a big boy conversation, this is the last time i acknowledge and respond to your uneducated observations and attitude. You learned to grow well, so you think your a real horticulturalist? Both of us are far from.

You remind me of something Chimera said yesterday:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I'm not sure if you ever went to College or University, but in that advanced learning culture, participants are expected to have read the required readings before participation in a discussion. This allows the finer points to be debated and discussed, and provides a factual basis so that everyone is on the same page. You yourself admit that you have not read the required readings for this discussion and then say that we'll have to agree to disagree on certain points."[/FONT]

 

[Mad Lab]

Im building and working on pics for everyone soon, havent had an HPA system running in a little less than a year, been building rooms for customers that dont have the resources for HPA so I go other routes with them. Slowly loading pics of all sorts of rooms im building.

I only started taking pictures of cannabis and threading the past few months. Legality was always an issue and taking pictures of massive grows wasnt a smart thing in my book.

Alot of people want to see a side by side so thats what were going to do. hydro v aero (nowhere near properly controlled) experiment coming soon.

I will compare to a DTW RW setup that i have proven to be 3-4lb light grows with gavitas, 2-3lb a light with HPS - against HPA. I will be posting pics of everything from build to harvest. But I will doing this test from rooting, so the HPA plants that pop roots early and dont take time to start growing in a oasis/rw/rr cube will have an advantage but this is fair because we are tracking from day 1 as we should. both subjects will receive the same light and nutrient lineup(HPA will be 50% less ppms) and the same co2 levels. Same room. heres pictures from the start of the build:

Slowly but surely, just showing everyone its on its way..

 

[Mad Lab]

And the DTW RW side will look like this room:

 

[squarepush3r]

I am all about research into new things, trying new methods and exploring and keeping an open mind. If you can setup a great commercial aero system, thats awesome lets see it!

However I think a lot of the aero people have a bit of a superiority complex "this study 5 decades ago says my aero method is 50% better/efficient, go fuck yourself!"

They are basing a lot of trust on a few studies done a LONG time ago. These studies obviously weren't comparing against modern grown methods being perfected today (like rockwool/dwc/nfc/coco). Also, there have been a LOT of aero threads throughout the years, and they go mostly the same.
1) "Aero is the best master race such better growth!"
2) "Here is a blueprint of my theoretical setup that is so easy and failproof!"
3) few pictures, maybe some veg pictures/clones
4) user disappears never to be seen again

As I said, I am happy if you can do something awesome or better with aero, but I think you have the viewpoint wrong, you AERO people are the ones with something to prove to us non aero growers. Please don't cite your outdated studies or scientific theories as fact that you are superior. Do a good grow and post it and I will upvote you for sure and congratulate you.

that being said ... roots suspended in air is very far removed from evolution of any plant species, so its hard to say that this is the superior method as plants would "strive" for having their roots suspended. It seems contrary to logic for me, even a DWC acts as a semi medium (the water) to suspend the roots, and systems like NFT the roots can rest on the PVC pipe), but with aero are plant roots even evolved to be "weight bearing" meaning to physically support the roots below them?

Also, aero seems to thrive at best in cloning/small single cola sea of green plant growing method, I will admit this for sure. So to be successful in a commercial operation, you would be talking about 10's of thousands of plants which would probably net most people here some serious federal time, so legally also it encourages high plant counts which is another turn off.

 

[Mad Lab]

no offense, but you sound like a broken record square.

how many times do you need to stress your points against HPA?

youve said them many times over. noted. thank you. im not sure how you want me to respond.

there are new studies. but old studies are not valid? im not sure your an authority to judge if they are outdated.





as to you new comment about plant counts, yes, i understand we have always worried about plant counts as we should.

but this is more a commercial thread which is likely pushing toward recreational legal states attitude towards numbers.. not very worried.

even though the best results i've gotten indoor per plant is doing one plant per light with an HPA trashcan, so although SOG is absolutely the best option, one plant systems are great too.

its the in medium size, multi-plant system that pose most problems because most people dont build the chamber and nozzle placement right.

 

[DrFever]

See Mad lab i came in here civil you on the other hand have taken offense by attacking just proves to me your childish behaviors
Since when have you become the expert on HPA when looks like you never ran one to begin with ??? some posts above have merit and i agree that these set ups are honed to more or less clone factories good luck doing a tree grow in one of these
And yes plant count is a issue for many i have grown 800+ plants in multi rooms in a sog vegged 5 weeks
you mention 5 percent - 30 percent Bull shit for instance ???? Here 2 week old soil grown plants yet when looking on the tube funny how so many threads iike this is all talk with no backing . if your gong to post Bul shit on the subject then you better have the backing rather than copy someone elses pictures to boost your ego

PS i went from 800 + Sogs ( 76 ) plant rooms to 12 plant scrogs producing n yield same dam thing 12 plant vs 76 plant rooms there Ass Wipe see here is the evidence
and the first pictures i posted was 4.75 pounds 5 plants 2000 watts thread is in my sig that is being efficient and what growers tend to look dialed in room when you fart its detected hahaha

 

[DrFever]

These pics are all soil grown but most importantly 5 week veg your 5 - 30 percent better growth BS
I moved away from sog grows 6 k rooms and why ???? 25 years in jail is why .....
76 per room to 12 plant scrogs
3000 watts just under 8 pounds 5 x 15 scrog 4 plant trim 3.5 pounds dry

 

[DrFever]

Here 2 week old plants problem i see is your system could not support a plant like that with out it being tied up and one fucking mess of rope everywhere lol

If your going to make a thread claiming what your saying then you better have the back up to prove it noob

 

[Mad Lab]

Hey dr,
If u read the pages previous in this thread u will notice that your comment section had been repeated over and over by other people. And reread your first posts here you may notice a negative attitude.

I have run HPA for many years, regardless of what u think. And your plants look great, If u want to know how I support my plants that get that size... of which all are, why not just ask instead of turning this into a critical debate? Threads are for solutions not complaining over something you haven't tried yet.

 

[DrFever]

1. if it does IMO its a marginal gain. i certainly dont buy that its 30% or what ever better, ive been wrong about tons of shit though.

2. people jump onto what ever stupid as fuck band wagon they want to, regardless of whether or not this wagon benefits them. organic food comes to mind.

but just because its not been adopted does not necessarily mean that it does not merit investment. with that said i do agree with you in that, if HPA were as productive as people have claimed, it would be in much wider use.

3. Its funny that you are so concerned about the costs of HPA, when your Undercurrent system easily costs far more. undercurrent systems cost a heinous and criminal amount. ( you know that you can buy those 17 gallon qorpak buckets for like 11 bucks? ) Were they not solely for use cultivating cannabis; a crop absurdly over valued, they would be entirely out of business.

A proper HP aero system would scale far far better than something like an undercurrent system, what with the cost of adding additional plants being just emitters, tubing and solenoids.

fertigation systems scale even better, with additional units requiring only 20 cent spray stakes, and additional media and containers.

the problem with the systems you mention, save for flood tables is that they require relatively high inputs of electricity. RDWC requires both air compressors, and pumps continuously.

adding additional sites scales this electrical input linearly, where as in systems such as fertilization, adding additional sites simply pushed up the duty cycle and number of solenoids untill such a time that it is exceeded,and a larger capacity pump is required.

a 5gpm diaphragm pump could probably feed 100 plants very easily. beyond that, one will require something like a high flow procon pump.... about 500 bucks brand new.

wtf is a PPK system btw?

Here ppk system a system where you can walk away up to a month aslong as you have a big enough bulk res medium is turface pulse type system with wicking capabilities in case of power failure no need to worry about ph issues i have started making few modules plans are run it up to under current style this system is by far up there for growth rates and most importantly yields
picture from member flowerfarmer and the ppk thread look it up the next gen of production and efficiency those plants you see 6 week veg monsters

here is the link

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=292102

 

[queequeg152]

if the OP will afford me an aside...

here is the link

interesting. i love you cannabis folks, you guys come up with the most unusual and often innovative approaches.

so this thing is basically a recirculating fertigation system with a passive wicking function.

not being a cannabis person, and growing outdoors now exclusively... while ive no doubt it works well, i personally don't like; and find the approach incompatible, with my philosophy as i prefer operational day to day simplicity over pretty much all else.

id elaborate on why i dont like the approach with respect to outdoor production, but this is not really the place...

 

[Mad Lab]

Delta9's setup was very nice. Are you using it Dr?

Personally, I'm moving away from recirculating systems altogether for commercial use. What do you guys think of recirculating systems for commercial use? Do you think it's practical?


also, you call me noob, thats funny. 3.5 units a light, and those pictures prove it? not at all, funny you posted them like you did, i can put pictures of bags online too HAHA. But really, Im not impressed and if you think i dont pull those numbers all the time, thats ok. I have 3.5 lb light rooms on my albums, so what? And 5 week veg, I beat that by half. But your comparisons dont really matter in this thread and your proof isnt even really proof.. also im not sure if anyone cares

 

[Mad Lab]

Dr,

I understand your biggest issue with medium size HPA plant systems is support?

Are you saying it's impossible to support them?

Try using 3 levels of netting, the first being a tough wire netting, the rest can be hortanova. But as long as your first net is secure, that is a good foundation.


Also, do you believe soil plants grow equally as fast as HPA plants?

 

[Mad Lab]

if the OP will afford me an aside...




interesting. i love you cannabis folks, you guys come up with the most unusual and often innovative approaches.

so this thing is basically a recirculating fertigation system with a passive wicking function.

not being a cannabis person, and growing outdoors now exclusively... while ive no doubt it works well, i personally don't like; and find the approach incompatible, with my philosophy as i prefer operational day to day simplicity over pretty much all else.

id elaborate on why i dont like the approach with respect to outdoor production, but this is not really the place...

Thanks for staying on topic quee, your in a few of the threads I follow and am glad your here for discussion.

On the topic of outdoor and HPA, atomizer on rolllitup does wonderful things. He is the only reason years ago I was able to do HPA outdoors and also support larger plants, lol. Have you checked his stuff out?

 

[ccsykes]

I understand your biggest issue with medium size HPA plant systems is support?

Funny I stumbled across this thread googling for something else..

Heya, Madlabs.. ;P

Read the thread.. couple of notes. HPA isn't really suited for herbs/leafy greens. The plants put on more biomass, but don't retain much water. So once harvested, they wilt very quickly unless quickly chilled. I like shallow raft systems for herbs and leafy greens. Some folks also find the texture of HPA grown herbs/leafy greens not appealing. They are very fleshy..

Plant support.. you're not going to be growing large plants with HPA. Problem many folks attempting HPA get into with cannabis is they try and grow the same size plant in HPA that they would in soil/hydro. That's just not going to work.

It will be small, single cola plants in a SOG style grow. I'd imagine over time plant genetics can be developed to work for this purpose. There's no point growing a large plant in HPA. Leverage the faster growth time by doing more cycles per year. In the end, it's all about grams/COG/watt. Growers need to get over the huge cola's, that's not where the commercial market will go. The commercial industry will move towards extraction when it scales after federal legalization, so cola size won't matter. Drying, trimming and curing is too labor intensive.

HPA is more expensive, vastly more expensive. But so is a Budwiser plant vs a copper moonshine still in the Kentucky mountains. Right now the legal cannabis industry is dominated by folks who want to make the most money they can, in the least amount of time. They're not thinking about CAPEX/ROI or future market S&P.. hell most growers don't even know what that is. They can get away with it now because market S&P isn't matured.

I've been involved in HPA research for 4 years now and have invested $1.2M in developing the tech. My Company is the one Madlabs is talking about. We've been collaborating with MIT and started a project with Tweed. We've learned a lot.

HPA is the future, it's going to drive the COG's so low that guys growing in a medium, under HPS's won't be able to compete. When the industry goes legal, the big money will roll in and they will want technology.. not scaled up basement grows. The day will come when a vape pen oil cartridge will be vastly cheaper than dried flowers.. consumers will change their habits due to cost.

Getting HPA to work with cannabis commercially is going to require R&D. It will work, but we've got to do real science to figure it out. We've started that R&D, so hang in there..

 

[DrFever]

thanks for joining in i think that IMO its not going to be the future to be honest far from it but once it does become fully legal what you will see is Green houses drip feed systems now although this is pretty neat shit at the end of the day its only anoter TOY comercial scale farmers / growers tend to stand with reliability specially if its there lively hood so growing one cola plants is out of the question cause at the end of the day you need to put food and be able to survive such as life
so in reality the average grower growing presently and hiding from the law will change once legal to huge green house's or back yard green houses and come winter time same thing will apply its all about getting results with as much less input and costs
think about it you guys talking about more grows per year TBO you will still fail in yields quota comparing it to 2 - 3 green house grow so 3 grows at one time harvesting 600 pounds total for the summer while your off on holidays cruzing the surf only to be back in march to start the process all over yet the HPA grower grew his ass off all year long harvest less then a quarter of that with no holidays

 

[squarepush3r]

HPA is the future, it's going to drive the COG's so low that guys growing in a medium, under HPS's won't be able to compete. When the industry goes legal, the big money will roll in and they will want technology.. not scaled up basement grows. The day will come when a vape pen oil cartridge will be vastly cheaper than dried flowers.. consumers will change their habits due to cost.

Shouldn't you be speaking scientifically like "HPA has potential to increase yields," or "with more research HPA looks to be a very promising area."

I think a lot of people get caught up in selling something that doesn't even exist yet (and may not). Look at Crop King for example, they focus on NFT systems for commercial growing as their hydroponic method. Its available right now. Maybe we should be considering this too.


I agree with you on a lot of your other points about extracts and stuff.

 

[queequeg152]

Read the thread.. couple of notes. HPA isn't really suited for herbs/leafy greens. The plants put on more biomass, but don't retain much water. So once harvested, they wilt very quickly unless quickly chilled. I like shallow raft systems for herbs and leafy greens. Some folks also find the texture of HPA grown herbs/leafy greens not appealing. They are very fleshy.. ]

thats very interesting man, ive never heard of the issue you mention. can you perhaps link to some information? if you are still around that is.

i dont grow herbs at all with my fertigation equipment... im a tom and pepper guy pretty much exclusivly. some cactus's too actually.

Getting HPA to work with cannabis commercially is going to require R&D. It will work, but we've got to do real science to figure it out. We've started that R&D, so hang in there..

do you really think that cannabis will be COMMERCIALLY produced indoors in the hypothetical 100% legal future?

i personally find the idea offensive.... no offense intended lol.
i understand why folks do it NOW... what with inertia and it being illegal for the past half or so century.

but under legal conditions?
i cant see it personally. i think its going to be outdoors... bulk of it will be at 30th latitude or lower, higher than that it will be grown in sophisticated heated greenhouses, fertigation and supplemental lighting included.

honestly, id be suprised if 1-2% of legal cannabis was produced indoors in this hypothetical future legal environment

 

[queequeg152]

and on another note, id be interested to see where plant breeding goes... when plants go outside and not in...

it seems to me that folks are breeding these plants to produce these immense dense flowers... buds what ever they are called.

said dense masses are a huge issue with respect to mold and mites no?

perhaps future outdoor cultivars will be somewhat less dense?