Help with my new cab... please

[unitedrule]

Hi all.....

Ok after some serious reading of this great forum I've decided to join the fun and 'grow my own'....
and now I'm after some advice from the 'pro's' on this site.

My cab firstly needs to be stealthish with no odour....both very important to me!
So I've decided on a wood storage cabinet...double door.
Its 34" high x 27.5" wide x 15" deep. I will grow from seed and dont want to branch into mothers etc..yet...so just need one chamber of lights.
I will split the cab into 1/3 and 2/3 (width)... 1/3rd being used for power supplies etc and the larger 2/3rd's for the Veg, Flower and drying stages. The top 10" have been put aside for a carbon filter.
I currently plan on starting off with 2/3 plants.... feminised seeds.... AK47 or White Widow....and would love to yield 2-3oz per harvest. Currently planning on LST or Scrog but as this is my first time... I'm not sure what best / easiest... can you help???

Just need some more advice on couple of other important issues....

Space: Will the space given be ok for my plan.... i think final measurements will be 24"x18"x15" to include light & fitting (around 4"-5" including hooks)

Lights: I want to use CFL.... so at the moment my thoughts are just plug (excuse the pun) for one 150watt with a light reflector and lower using chains hanging from metal hooks. I have found a CFL with both spectrums, 2700k and 6400k for both stages. The fitting is 18" long and 15" wide so will just fit.

Hydro / Not Hydro: As this is my first attempt I am not 100% sure how to work hydro's but understand that you can get a better yield by using it... is this right?? Are hydro's easy to operate & maintain? Should I stick with soil until I get greener fingers.

Air in / Air out: I currently understand that its best to have twice the amount of air coming in as it is going out. The carbon filter I'm looking at has an extraction fan and is 4". So my question is.... will 2 x 4" intake vents (covered by computer fan covers) & a 4" carbon filter with extraction fan be enough to keep my temps and humid on ok levels? I will also have a 7" fan to keep a steady airflow.... again is this ok??

Whats your thoughts on the current plan....all sugestions are welcome!!

I think thats about it for now guys....

Happy time.... High times!!!

 

[Jnugg]

Soil is easier then hydro and more forgiving so fir your first grow I would deffinately use a soil based mix for your growing medium.

As far as your air intakes if using a 4" fan you'll want 3.3x that for intakes or 13-14 square inches of intake area.This can be accomplished using eight 2" OD PVC piping or an 8" x 8" darkroom louvered vent.Now,is this 4" fan a cheap crappy booster fan,bathroom vent fan,or axial/computer muffin fan?If so you can forget about using a carbon filter and any 90 degree bends in your duct runs.Get a 4" S&P mixed flow exhuast fan or a 4" Vortex,Can Fan,Elicent,Eco Plus inline centrifugal exhuast fan.The inline centrifugals can handle higher amounts of static pressure the any other fan yet the mixed flow inline fans do well with static pressure and are quiter they won't handle the static pressure or much of it as well as a quality inline centrifugal exhuast fan.

150w should do the trick as that's 80w per square foot as far as lumens though I am not sure as I have never used CFL's but a good rule of thumb is to supply atleast 375 lumens per square foot for seedlings/clones about 2500-5000 lpsf for vegetative plants and 7000-10,000 lpsf for flowering plants.You could get by with less but these are for optimal results.

Since your grow space is pretty muc hheight limited and the fact that cfl's.fluoros in general don't have the power it takes to light below a canopy very well.a 250w HID will illuminate about 1' below the canopy,a 400w HID will penetrate the canopy down about 2'.a 600w HID 3' and a 1000w HID 4'.

Since your grow is both low on height and watts/lumens I'd do a SCRoG or SoG grow.

 

[unitedrule]

Thanks guys....

Jnugg: Links to carbon fan and extractor and lights below: what do you think??

Filter: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380139660069
Lamp: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250463961610

All other advice welcome!!

Thanks again guys!

 

[unitedrule]

any other assistance gusys??

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

4" fan - if the flange is round (4" diameter) = 12.56 sq inches

with the 2x passive intake method, you could easily cut two 4" holes w/o having to do any math.

if you prefer the 3.3x passive intake, (41.45 sq inches) cut three 4" holes and one 1-1/8" hole. this seems like overkill imo.

if you want to use the 2" elbows, (usually measured id) it will take exactly eight of em to get 2x passive intake. if you want 3.3x passive, it'll take 14 elbows, I'm sure you could survive with only 13.

An 8 x 8 darkroom louvered vent is 64 sq inches. The louvers block some of the airflow but you still might get 3.3x passive.

for round flanges, an easy way to calculate passive intake size is to use the area of a circle:

area = radius squared x 3.14 (using the 4" diameter example, 2 x 2 x 3.14 = 12.56 sq inches.)

if the flange is square or rectangular, area = length x width.

 

[unitedrule]

As I'm only using a 125 or 150 watt CFL I think that 2x4" and 1x3" will be enough... I can then use black pvc elbows for lightproofing....

Thanks for the maths part though....very useful!

Can anyone help me on how much space I will need for the carbon filter and extraction fan (can style)?

I'm hoping to be able to mount it all inside the box.

Soon as I've put my designs on better paper I will upload but I'm hoping for one like
MtnKuSh's "New MicroMedical Cab Bag seed 125W CFL". My only difference is that my cab is only 15" deep and I want the extraction fan inside the cab!!

Good times.... High times!!!

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

not trying to steer you wrong but elbows that big will take lots of room. measure them before you buy them because they'll either get in the way of pots or they'll be too big to go underneath the cab floor (unless you have a 5"+ raised cab floor.)

If you only want one grow space, there's really no need to divide the cab unless you want to reduce the grow area for whatever reason. An inline fan and a can 2600 (typical small mfg filter - ~40cfm) might not fit the 15" dimension but you could always run the exhaust out the side if you wanted. Assuming a non-divided setup, you have about 8.1 cubic feet. A can 2600 would turn over scrubbed air five times a minute provided it has the fan to pull it.

A hydrofarm 95cfm blower can be had on ebay for $75 including shipping. It's a right angle design and you could run the scrubber along the long wall and exhaust out the back. The hf blower is only 29db and a inline centrifugal will go about 40 to 50 depending on brand. S&P is very quiet but you would have to exhaust out the side imo.

here's a link of a similar cab:
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=125389

EDIT: On second thought, your cab probably isn't deep enough to squeeze the light and filter together. Your best option is a small diy filter and whatever fan that will fit and is strong enough to pull through the scrubber.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Soil is easier then hydro and more forgiving

Unless you're like me. My soil grows have always had issues with finding the right materials. Trying to get someone to fully understand what you're doing and have them figure out what's wrong with your plants from pictures online is also a pain in the ass.

I spent a few months reading up on hydro, settled on the Lucas methods for their ease and limited number of issues. Spent a few more months reading and then went for it. So simple. So easy.

The best part is that if you screw up, you'll know it within 24hrs. Dump the res and start over. (Another reason to have your first grow small) Soil always takes too long to show results and I don't track things that well with my autism. Heh.

You can find GH FloraNova or their 3-part nutrients in many nurseries, shops and online stores. Doesn't even have to be a hydro shop.

Mix your res.
pH your res.
Top off with RO water until you've used the same number of gallons you mixed your res with.
Dump and repeat.

It's just too simple.

If you want to go soil, just find someone that's using materials that you can source reliably (same soil, same earthworm castings, same nutes, same blood meal, etc. etc. etc.) and follow their example. After all the months of research I did in comparing grow methods, Lucas just had so many plusses and so few issues (all known and rectifiable) that it seemed dumb for me to consider soil as a choice for my first few grows.


Now that I know how to grow, I love hydro too much. I do look forward to building up my organic soil skills one day, but not at the moment. One step at a time, one step at a time.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

the same gh nutes work well in soil also. one of these days I'll have to try hydro. my temps run a little too high atm.

 

[unitedrule]

Just had a chat with a few people in the know and they've advised hydro also.... I'm still not sure as its my first grow.... think I'll try to just try place it safe and do it as mother nature intended.... well apart from the artificial light and box of course!!

I've also now got the idea that my box is a bit small... new plans brewing!!

Good times..... high times!!!

 

[camo]

What worked for me, Small is not "cheap" , larger is easier than micro.

What worked for me, Small is not "cheap" , larger is easier than micro.

Ive got a box almost that exact same size. I use 4 120mm pc fans for circulation and a super heavy duty delta 12v 120mm pc fan for the exhaust. I bolted the smallest can filter they make to the left wall (can 9000 i think). Pull the air through the cool tube on top, and out the right side. Loud as hell without muffler bolted to the outside i made. I ran up to 6 plans in 2 liter wall mart lemonaid pitchers. 4 inches around and fit well in 6in water coasters. I ran a 70 hps remote balast or a 110 cmh. Yields didnt change much seems like no matter what i pack in there i yeild around 2 oz soil . With a high yeild strain you can hit 3 oz i bet, but probally not on the first run. I ran all the fans including exhaust off a laptop power supply but space was a premium. exhaust fan size can be a problem with box's this size. The s&p 4" fans that have been posted lately look like they'd be perfect for this size. I tried CFL's but in my setup they roasted the plants. I was forced to go cool tube to even pull it off,

 

[NOKUY]

peep my cabinet thread if you havent...link in my sig

ive explained lots of things that may help u

 

[blazedndazed]

Personally id go for soil for a fist try, A bag of compost, pots and nutes is way cheaper than a hydro setup, Once you complete your first grow you can easy to upgrade if you feel your ready.

Also id think about a veg cab, Obviously you wont need it straight away but when you plants are ready to harvest its nice to throw some more into flower straight away. I started with one box, then I got pissed off because it was adding 6+ weeks to a grow so I built a veg box, And now iv just finished a drying box as well, Now its allot easier because i don’t have to wait till ones finished before I start the next

Now, is this 4" fan a cheap crappy booster fan,bathroom vent fan,or axial/computer muffin fan?If so you can forget about using a carbon filter and any 90 degree bends in your duct runs.

Not trying to hijack the thread but can I ask why you don’t recommend a PC with a carbon filter? I'm not being a dick, im just trying to learn

I use a pc fan on my cab with a store brought carbon filter, I have the pc fan bolted to the back of the cab with a cut out for the air, I found that the 4" duct stretches perfectly over the PC fan, so I have a very small 90 degree bend of duct connecting the pc fan to my carbon filter,

I can honestly say iv used this method for many grows (i appear a newbie but am an OG'er from way back when lol) and it seems to work fine, Iv got a decent amount of air flowing out of the fan and zero smell, and no light leaks

I’m really interested why you said this method is not recommended? Your obviously a very respect grower on here and I’m eager to learn so if you can impart any knowledge on the subject id be very grateful.

I'm always looking to improve my cab and iv learned that sometimes what seems fine can actually be shit lol

Thanks

 

[Jnugg]

Not trying to hijack the thread but can I ask why you don’t recommend a PC with a carbon filter? I'm not being a dick, im just trying to learn

I use a pc fan on my cab with a store brought carbon filter, I have the pc fan bolted to the back of the cab with a cut out for the air, I found that the 4" duct stretches perfectly over the PC fan, so I have a very small 90 degree bend of duct connecting the pc fan to my carbon filter,

I can honestly say iv used this method for nearly many grows (i appear a newbie but am an OG'er from way back when lol) and it seems to work fine, Iv got a decent amount of air flowing out of the fan and zero smell, and no light leaks

I’m really interested why you said this method is not recommended? Your obviously a very respect grower on here and I’m eager to learn so if you can impart any knowledge on the subject id be very grateful.

I'm always looking to improve my cab and iv learned that sometimes what seems fine can actually be shit lol

Thanks

Because PC fans can't holdup to the static pressures created by mounting ducting to your fan ,long runs of ducting or carbon filters like a quality inline centrifugal.If you couldn't afford one I'd much rather go with a mixed flow exhuast fan like a S&P mixed vent exhuast fan.

S&P Mixed Flow exhuast fans: Scroll to page 4 for performance specs.

S&P Mixed Flow Exhuast Fans

S&P Inline Centrifugal (aka Power Vent series):Again scroll to page 4 for performance specs.
S&P Inline Centrifugal Exhuast Fans


And finally the other Inline Centrifugal company that lists their products tech specs is Can Fan:
Can Fan Tech. Spec. Sheet

Just check out those numbers.

 

[unitedrule]

Hi all...

I have now wangled a grow tent of 75cm(W) x 75cm(D) x100cm(H) (Budbox small)

So I'm now thinking of going HPS due to the benefits with yeild....
Using a 4" extractor fan do you think you could pull the air through a carbon filter, past the light (cooling it) and out the side??? Do you think that the temps would be ok???

Was thinking of connecting the filter to the cool light then outside the tent to extractor....

Has anyone done this?? Think it will work???

Would you then just be able to use one light??? or will you still need a CFL for the veg stage?

Thanks all

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

If I did the math right, it's about 6.2 sq feet. You'd need at least a 250 watt hps but 400 would be better. A 250 is about 40 wpsf and a 400 is about 64wpsf.

Depending on ambient temps, a 400 could make the tent room too hot w/o air conditioning in the summer. You might get away with a 250 w/o having to ac the tent room.

A 4" fan? It will depend what type of fan. A 4" axial with a scrubber probably wouldn't do it. A 4" inline probably will.

Hang the scrubber as high as possible. Use flex duct to connect the filter to the fixture so you can raise or lower the light. Make sure the fixture socket is on the fan side, not the scrubber side.

Some folks use HID for seedlings and cuttings. Nothing wrong with this but CFLs do so much with so little electricity. It's up to you.

 

[Jnugg]

Hi all...

I have now wangled a grow tent of 75cm(W) x 75cm(D) x100cm(H) (Budbox small)

So I'm now thinking of going HPS due to the benefits with yeild....
Using a 4" extractor fan do you think you could pull the air through a carbon filter, past the light (cooling it) and out the side??? Do you think that the temps would be ok???

Was thinking of connecting the filter to the cool light then outside the tent to extractor....

Has anyone done this?? Think it will work???

Would you then just be able to use one light??? or will you still need a CFL for the veg stage?

Thanks all

400w HPS should do well in a 6 square foot area...That would give you 66.66 wpsf and 8333 lpsf...2500-5000 lpsf for fast,healthy,vigorous vegetative growth (more lpsf won't hurt at all),and 7000-10,000 lpsf for fast,healthy,vigourous bud growth.

Yes you can attach the carbon filter to the end of a cooltube or A/C hood and suck the air through the filter over the light through some ducting to the extractor fan and out of the room your grow tent sits in (I recommend venting through the attic or out a window via an insulated window box).

What size fan and how many cfm?Is it an Inline Centrifugal,Mixed Flow,Blower,PC/Axial fan,or bathroom vent fan.If using a carbon filter I would seriously urge you to get either an Inline Centrifugal (Vortex,Elicent,Can Fan,Eco Plus,S&P Power Vent series) exhuast fan or a Mixed Flow (S&P TD or TDX) vent fan.


With a 400w HPS in an area where the walls/floor are equal to the light pattern and using a 4" 172-200cfm inline centrifugal you should expect a t-diff of 4-8F above ambient temps (ambient temps = temperature of the room the grow tent sits in).With a 6" 392-449cfm inline centrifugal a t-diff of 2-4F above ambient temps can be expected.Match the proper fan to the proper filter an there will be very little pressure losses (static pressure).

Look at Can Fan's site

Can Fan Technical Spec. Sheet

They show you the performance specs. for each model and what the cfm.airflow is at various static pressures.

Now take a look at Can Fans Can Filters (I'll use the Can Fan 6"HO and the Can 50 Filter for reference)

Can 50 Filter Spec. sheet


As you can see the Can Fan 6"HO is rated at 392cfm @ 0"wg/static pressure,348cfm @ 0.25"wg/static pressure,301cfm @ 0.5"wg/static pressure,260cfm @ 0.75"wg/static pressure,230cfm @ 1"wg/static pressure,179cfm @ 1.25"wg/static pressure,and 139cfm @ 1.5"wg/static pressure.The Can Fan 6"HO has a maximum handling of 2"wg/static pressure!


Now If we look at the Can 50 Filter we see that it is rated for a maximum of 840cfm when scrubbing (sucking/pulling air through the filter) and a maximum of 420cfm when exhuasting (pushing/exhuasting into the carbon filter).They give you some specs. on the performance when added to certain fans.Can Fan recommends their 6"HO,8"HO,and 10" fans for the Can 50 Filter.If we look at the Can 50 filter page we see that when we match the Can 50 Filter to the Can Fan 6"HO that we will experience 0.75"wg/static pressure,which means we would have an efective airflow of about 300cfm.

Get that fan and filter and you should have no problems keeping the light and tent cool while cleaning your exhuast air.You could always build a DIY copy of the Can 50 Filter if you like too.I have a 4" 172cfm Eco Plus inline centrifugal and in the summer here in Fla. it can be a real PITA to keep temps in the optimal range,though if I could vent into the attic or another room it wouldn't be as hard to keep lights on temps in the optimal range of 72-78f(with 75f eing ideal).


Here you can take a look at Soler & Palau's mixed flow fans (they're inbetween axial's and centrifugals) spec. sheet

S&P Mixed Flow Exhuast Fan Performance Spec. Sheet

If you notice their 6" TD150 at low speed is rated (that's right these are 2 speed fans,low and high)

218cfm @ 0'wg/static pressure,163cfm @ 0.25"wg/static pressure,105cfm @ 0.5"wg/static pressure,and only 24cfm @ 0.75"wg/static pressure.Max static pressure it can handle at low speed is 0.9"wg

At high speed the S&P TD150 is rated 293cfm @ 0"wg/static pressure,250cfm @ 0.25"wg/static pressure,206cfm @ 0.5"wg/static pressure,131cfm @ 0.75"wg/static pressure,and only 35cfm @ 1"wg/static pressure.Max static pressure it can handle at high speed is 1.2"wg


Now we'll take a look at S&P's Power Vent series inline centrifugal exhuast fans

S&P Power Vent series inline centrifugal exhuast fan airflow/spec. sheet

The 4" PV 100x is rated 153cfm @ 0"wg/static pressure,130cfm @ 0.25"wg/static pressure,111cfm @ 0.5"wg/static pressure,96cfm @ 0.75"wg/static pressure,and 80cfm @ 1"wg/static pressure.Max static pressure it can handle is 1.85"

The 6" PV 150x is rated 438cfm @ 0"wg/static pressure,495cfm @ 0.25"wg/static pressure,335cfm @ 0.5"wg/static pressure,285cfm @ 0.75"wg/static pressure,240cfm @ 1"wg/static pressure,161cfm @ 1.5"wg/static pressure.Max static pressure it can handle is 2.29"wg


I'd go with a Can Fan 6"HO and Can 50 Filter or a S&P PV 150x and Can 50 Filter as far as ventilation and odor control go.After all you may think that the 6" inline centrifugals are expensive and may be overkill but you never know...sometimes it is better to over compensate or be safe rather than sorry....plus you might want to upgrade to a 600w or 1000w HPS someday!

 

[unitedrule]

Jnugg: Thanks for that...apolgies though....
cause its now been cut down to a 75cm(high) x 80cm(wide) x 60cm(deep) unit.... (the Mrs!! Wants it in a specific place!!) and I'm back to a 150 CFL.

Do you think a 100mm (4”) RVK100 A1 (175m3/hour) would be ok? Or overkill?? I'm going to use a can filter which is Budget Filter BF160 (which is 31cm long and 18cm wide).
Link to both: http://www.growell.co.uk/p/2910/Budget-Extraction-Filtration-Kits.html

I know you've said its best to over compensate but I'm a bit worried about my temps becoming too low? I suppose I could always get a fan controller to slow the fan.....

Also.... would I run the extractor/filter all of the time or only when the lights are on? I kind of think that if I want it odour free then its constant running?? But will this not again bring the temp down too much?

Thanks again!!!

 

[Jnugg]

Jnugg: Thanks for that...apolgies though....
cause its now been cut down to a 75cm(high) x 80cm(wide) x 60cm(deep) unit.... (the Mrs!! Wants it in a specific place!!) and I'm back to a 150 CFL.

Do you think a 100mm (4”) RVK100 A1 (175m3/hour) would be ok? Or overkill?? I'm going to use a can filter which is Budget Filter BF160 (which is 31cm long and 18cm wide).
Link to both: http://www.growell.co.uk/p/2910/Budget-Extraction-Filtration-Kits.html

I know you've said its best to over compensate but I'm a bit worried about my temps becoming too low? I suppose I could always get a fan controller to slow the fan.....

Also.... would I run the extractor/filter all of the time or only when the lights are on? I kind of think that if I want it odour free then its constant running?? But will this not again bring the temp down too much?

Thanks again!!!

So lete me get this right....you're tent measures 2.624' w x 1.968' d x 2.460' h

Are you sure about those measurements?I have never seen a tent that small for sale....anywhere!Who makes this grow tent,do you have a link?

That space only = 12.7'^3 (12.7' cubic feet)

If these are the true measurements you would have 5.16 square feet.A 150w CFL is not going to cover this area!!!!

A 150w CFL has only 9,500-10,000 lumens total........9,500 / 5.16 = 1841 lumens per square foot.150w / 5.16' = 29w per square foot.....that's no where near enough light!

A 150w HPS has about 16,000 total lumens so 16,000 / 5.16' =
3,100 lumens per square foot.150w / 5.16' = 29w per square foot.

This would work for vegetative plants and clones but a bare minimum.

I'd look into getting atleast a 250w HPS as they have about 28,500 lumens total.28,500 / 5.16 = 5,523 lumens per square foot.250w / 5.16' = 48w per square foot.

This would work for clones,vegetative plants and you can flower with it in that space too but,a 400w HPS is better suited for that floor space........


A standard 400w HPS has about 50,000 total lumens so....50,000 / 5.16' = 9689 lumens per square feet.400w / 5.16' = 77.5w per square foot.

That is optimal.Although with a 400w HID in a space that small (12.7 cubic feet) you'll need some pretty serious ventilation.That 4" RVK is 175m3^/hour
and if my math is correct that equals out to 100cfm....I'd shoot for the RVK125 or RVK150 but it all depends on what wattage light you'll be using.

For starters.....what are the temps of the room your grow tent will be sitting in...I need the highest it gets and the lowest it gets.

 

[poina]

My opinion won't mean much as I haven't even started my first grow yet but I think a good look at red greenery's 150 cab is even something I could do. My plan is cfl and hempy buckets. You may want to try this (hempy) also as it looks pretty idiot proof and forgiving. I've searched around here alot and Red has his shit together.