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HAZE X KALI CHINA FEMINIZED

deepwaterdude

Active member
Dr Young, that's the 10th of January of this year, my friend;) We're the only ones in the world to put the month first, sigh.
Haze x KC is a great strain, anything with either of the parents is. You're gonna have some fun! ;o)
 

Koondense

Well-known member
Veteran
Hey dubi,
maybe a silly question...
Since haze has always been considered a great breeding tool by many, there seems to be the tendency to use haze for the male parent plant. In this hybrid you crossed the haze female with KC reversed, did you maybe try the other way around? Or just with regular male haze plant(s) with a KC mom? I always wonder how hybrids turn out with different parent plants...

Cheers
 

dubi

ACE Seeds Breeder
Vendor
Veteran
Hi Koondense,

It's not a silly question, it's indeed a very interesting one.

I think there's nothing special on Haze males regarding special traits or better quality effects that a good pure Haze female couldn't pass to the offspring.
The key is parental selection and on the genetic combination ability of the different lines being crossed.

The myth of Haze males passing better traits than Haze females comes from Nevil's work. Nevil could only worked extensively with 1 Haze male (male C), as he lost the only pure Haze female he managed to germinate (female B) and he also lost male A before he could produced commercial quantities with him. So at the end, most Nevil's Haze hybrids (the ones that were most widely spread and had more impact in cannabis scene) were derived from his Haze male C.

That's why many think Haze males are more special for breeding than Haze females, a statement that i don't agree (based on my personal experience breeding with Haze females and males).

Sam Skunkman, which is probably the person in the world that has bred with larger Haze populations, bred Fuma con Dios (HazexSkunk) and Fuma con Diablo (Skunk/Haze) for Flying Dutchmen in the late 90s (both were great) and other Haze hybrids, and most of the times he has used Haze females for his Haze hybrids. Must be for a good reason.

The reason is obvious, you can select the best Haze females based on their finished product, but you can only judge the quality of a Haze male based on its offspring (or more rarely by reversing the males, a process that very few breeders do), and in both cases the final proof is always on the testing of the offspring (whether a Haze female or a Haze male is used to produce the hybrids).

At ACE Seeds (with the help of charlie garcia from Cannabiogen) we managed to germinate 40-60 original Haze seeds from Oldtimer (and after that many dozens more from subsequent generations), so we have had much more Haze genetic diversity to explore and to breed with (both on the female and the male side) that Nevil had.

I did select Green Haze #19 and Purple Haze #23 parental plants as the best females from each main pheno. I'm sure better Oldtimer's Haze parental plants can be found if you select through hundreds or thousands of plants, but unfortunately i have never had the chance to go so far and deep with the line, yet i'm very happy with the offspring that these 2 Haze female parental plants produce, both within Oldtimer's Haze line and in outcrosses like Panama Haze, Haze x Kali China, Purple Haze x Malawi, or in our Haze x Thai or Haze x Honduras series. We also released a Nepal Haze strain which was a Nepal highland female crossed with a Haze male, and it was great as well. But as you may know, i have focused my work with Oldtimer's Haze (and its hybrids) mainly on these 2 Haze females.

Your second question is different, but equally interesting. What's the different between making a cross with a female from line A crossed with a male from line B vs a cross of a female from line B pollinated by a male from line A ? That's a different history, and to reach to conclusions both different lines must be as much as inbred as possible, if you are playing with polyhybrids you will be lost in filial polyhybrid segregation and you won't reach to any conclusion.

DJ Short commented in his book (and in some posts in the forums) that he had much more success to create his blue lines by pollinating a pure sativa with indica pollen rather than with the indica x sativa cross, in both cases using same lines. Well, it could be true in the case of the lines he was breeding with, but that statement can not be generalized for all the cases. In fact, me and other breeders have experienced better results in certain cases by pollinating indicas with sativa pollen. Again, it depends a lot on the genetic combination ability of the lines involved.

One specific case i can explain from first hand experience was with the testing and breeding of our old Zamal Hash release. We tried both ways: Zamal female pollinated by HashPlant female (reversed) and HashPlant female pollinated by Zamal female (reversed), we tested both hybrids at the same time under the same conditions and both were great but i liked the indica x sativa combination the most. This kind of experiments is better to do them through feminized reproduction so only 2 females are involved so it's easier to compare them, if you proceed with traditional breeding then you need to introduce males and 3 o 4 parental plants would be involved in the opposite hybrids and therefore is more difficult to reach to conclusions.

Why one of the opposite crosses was better than the other ? Obviously, because one had better genetic combination ability for the goals than the other one.

Why the outcome of both opposite hybrids were similar but slightly different when in both cases exactly the same 2 parental plants were involved, just changing the order of the same parental plant ?
I'm not biologist or genetist, but i think the difference has to do with the mitocondrial genetic information that only the mother passes to the offspring.

Hope it helps with your doubt :)
 

Koondense

Well-known member
Veteran
Well that's a great answer dubi,
thanks for your time writing this, helps a lot of course :)
I remember from the time when growing Zamal Hash you explained the difference in progeny when switching parental roles in the cross, makes much sense to try it when using only female plants of course.
The reason I asked was mainly because of Sam Skunkman's frequent mentions of something like "cross your favorite female cut with haze and will be improved in the hybrid", which seems a similar way of doing it as Nevil did, only to find out Nevil had just one male in his hands.
I'm still getting some seeds for my future grows/seed projects and OldTimer's Haze is one of the still missing parts although I have the Original Haze and Original Haze x Panama hybrid for eventual haze crosses. Since I never had a pure haze or mostly haze I'd be inclined to dust the haze(y) mothers with a shorter flowering male, to try the female flower qualities and effect of course, the way DJ Short advises.

There are many other questions I have in mind, mainly about Original Haze, A5, C5, different Jacks and of course lots of other things, but I'll keep calm and not ruin this beautiful thread of Haze x KC ;)

Have a great week!

Cheers
 

nepalnt21

FRRRRRResh!
Veteran
I'm not biologist or genetist, but i think the difference has to do with the mitocondrial genetic information that only the mother passes to the offspring.

that's a fun thought!

one thing - i believe chloroplasts are the plant equivalent of mitochondria
 

Mimpi Manis

Well-known member
Agree... one excellent, generous and detailed reply from Dubi. Enjoyed reading what he had to say. Currently a few of Ace's seeds winging my way: KillerA5/SuperMalawiHaze and a few well thought out freebies. So many killer strains, so little time... and very very shitty government/justice system here. Great site guys.
Lj
 

Joeyjoejoe1234

New member
that's a fun thought!

one thing - i believe chloroplasts are the plant equivalent of mitochondria

I think plants have mitochondria too. Chloroplasts are super similar but they are like the opposite of mitochondria. Chloroplasts store the energy and mitochondria take it out of storage and make it useable by the cell.
 

nepalnt21

FRRRRRResh!
Veteran
I think plants have mitochondria too. Chloroplasts are super similar but they are like the opposite of mitochondria. Chloroplasts store the energy and mitochondria take it out of storage and make it useable by the cell.

o nice! thanks!

sorry dubi lol:tiphat:
 

akirabull

Member
Hi Koondense,

It's not a silly question, it's indeed a very interesting one.

I think there's nothing special on Haze males regarding special traits or better quality effects that a good pure Haze female couldn't pass to the offspring.
The key is parental selection and on the genetic combination ability of the different lines being crossed.

The myth of Haze males passing better traits than Haze females comes from Nevil's work. Nevil could only worked extensively with 1 Haze male (male C), as he lost the only pure Haze female he managed to germinate (female B) and he also lost male A before he could produced commercial quantities with him. So at the end, most Nevil's Haze hybrids (the ones that were most widely spread and had more impact in cannabis scene) were derived from his Haze male C.

That's why many think Haze males are more special for breeding than Haze females, a statement that i don't agree (based on my personal experience breeding with Haze females and males).

Sam Skunkman, which is probably the person in the world that has bred with larger Haze populations, bred Fuma con Dios (HazexSkunk) and Fuma con Diablo (Skunk/Haze) for Flying Dutchmen in the late 90s (both were great) and other Haze hybrids, and most of the times he has used Haze females for his Haze hybrids. Must be for a good reason.

The reason is obvious, you can select the best Haze females based on their finished product, but you can only judge the quality of a Haze male based on its offspring (or more rarely by reversing the males, a process that very few breeders do), and in both cases the final proof is always on the testing of the offspring (whether a Haze female or a Haze male is used to produce the hybrids).

At ACE Seeds (with the help of charlie garcia from Cannabiogen) we managed to germinate 40-60 original Haze seeds from Oldtimer (and after that many dozens more from subsequent generations), so we have had much more Haze genetic diversity to explore and to breed with (both on the female and the male side) that Nevil had.

I did select Green Haze #19 and Purple Haze #23 parental plants as the best females from each main pheno. I'm sure better Oldtimer's Haze parental plants can be found if you select through hundreds or thousands of plants, but unfortunately i have never had the chance to go so far and deep with the line, yet i'm very happy with the offspring that these 2 Haze female parental plants produce, both within Oldtimer's Haze line and in outcrosses like Panama Haze, Haze x Kali China, Purple Haze x Malawi, or in our Haze x Thai or Haze x Honduras series. We also released a Nepal Haze strain which was a Nepal highland female crossed with a Haze male, and it was great as well. But as you may know, i have focused my work with Oldtimer's Haze (and its hybrids) mainly on these 2 Haze females.

Your second question is different, but equally interesting. What's the different between making a cross with a female from line A crossed with a male from line B vs a cross of a female from line B pollinated by a male from line A ? That's a different history, and to reach to conclusions both different lines must be as much as inbred as possible, if you are playing with polyhybrids you will be lost in filial polyhybrid segregation and you won't reach to any conclusion.

DJ Short commented in his book (and in some posts in the forums) that he had much more success to create his blue lines by pollinating a pure sativa with indica pollen rather than with the indica x sativa cross, in both cases using same lines. Well, it could be true in the case of the lines he was breeding with, but that statement can not be generalized for all the cases. In fact, me and other breeders have experienced better results in certain cases by pollinating indicas with sativa pollen. Again, it depends a lot on the genetic combination ability of the lines involved.

One specific case i can explain from first hand experience was with the testing and breeding of our old Zamal Hash release. We tried both ways: Zamal female pollinated by HashPlant female (reversed) and HashPlant female pollinated by Zamal female (reversed), we tested both hybrids at the same time under the same conditions and both were great but i liked the indica x sativa combination the most. This kind of experiments is better to do them through feminized reproduction so only 2 females are involved so it's easier to compare them, if you proceed with traditional breeding then you need to introduce males and 3 o 4 parental plants would be involved in the opposite hybrids and therefore is more difficult to reach to conclusions.

Why one of the opposite crosses was better than the other ? Obviously, because one had better genetic combination ability for the goals than the other one.

Why the outcome of both opposite hybrids were similar but slightly different when in both cases exactly the same 2 parental plants were involved, just changing the order of the same parental plant ?
I'm not biologist or genetist, but i think the difference has to do with the mitocondrial genetic information that only the mother passes to the offspring.

Hope it helps with your doubt :)

amazing theme, actually I'm focused on my crosses, I use a neville haze male to test if can pass the right offspring and right high to some old good clones too heavy to smoke daily. it's a hard work because I think sativa males provide more diversity in their progeny. it's all a work of great selection finding the right combination. this is what I saw in two years. it took a long long time to understand well if your lady is really a champ, same time many many good phenotype can be reach easily .
 

BenoitV1984

Well-known member
Veteran
Any idea when this one will be back in stock at Ace Seeds shop?

I'd like to order this one with Killer A5, Super Malawi Haze and Panama x BH (1 of each). I wouldn't mind the freebies working for strains not part of that August 2x1 discount either so I can get 3 Panama regular with that :)
 

dubi

ACE Seeds Breeder
Vendor
Veteran
Hi akirabull,

It's harder and slower to breed with sativas due to the longer flowering times and therefore due to the longer breeding cycles and selections, but sativas are not more genetically diverse 'per se' than indicas, neither males produce more variability than females. It's all about the stability/inbreeding degree of the line that you are working with, regardless it's sativa or indica, wild landrace or domesticated polyhybrid.
 

dubi

ACE Seeds Breeder
Vendor
Veteran
Hi BenoitV1984,

We have just produced a small fresh batch of Haze x Kali China fem seeds so we expect a re stock on the strain for September/October this year (same for Thai Chi). Of course, after confirm good germination rates of the new stock. Thanks for your interest.
 

dubi

ACE Seeds Breeder
Vendor
Veteran
Haze x Kali China back in stock - cannabinoid analysis available

Haze x Kali China back in stock - cannabinoid analysis available

Hi :tiphat:

Glad to inform you that Haze x Kali China fem hybrid is back in stock on our website:

https://www.aceseeds.org/en/hazekalichinafem.html

and soon through our official retailers.

UniqueFlower has shared with us the cannabinoid results of his latest Haze x Kali China harvest. Thank you very much! :huggg:

The Haze x Kali China cannabinoid report has been posted in the 'ACE Seeds' strains - cannabinoid and terpene analyses' thread, post #56:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=323725&page=6
 

Dr.Young

K+ vibes
Veteran
Im still eager to see the terp results!!
Curious if you find this more incensey than Panama Haze?
How does it compare to the A5 level or type of haze?
More lavender floral incensey? instead of musky leathery incensey?
 

akirabull

Member
Hi akirabull,

It's harder and slower to breed with sativas due to the longer flowering times and therefore due to the longer breeding cycles and selections, but sativas are not more genetically diverse 'per se' than indicas, neither males produce more variability than females. It's all about the stability/inbreeding degree of the line that you are working with, regardless it's sativa or indica, wild landrace or domesticated polyhybrid.

thanks for clarification, I missed this answer.
 

dubi

ACE Seeds Breeder
Vendor
Veteran
Hi Dr.Young,

A5 Haze delivers a very strong liver leathery classic dutch Haze incense which can also be found in Killer A5 Haze. Kali China also produces very meaty incenses, but with more complex creamy and mango fruity terpenes. Panama Haze is more lemony incensey.

Im still eager to see the terp results!!
Curious if you find this more incensey than Panama Haze?
How does it compare to the A5 level or type of haze?
More lavender floral incensey? instead of musky leathery incensey?
 

Dr.Young

K+ vibes
Veteran
Guessing Haze x Kc is same as kc?
Kali mist is definitely one I wanna get. Seems like it maintains the old incensey haze smell more so than the newer popular lemony hazes....
Are you ever going to play with a Kerala landrace dubi?
 

dubi

ACE Seeds Breeder
Vendor
Veteran
Hi Dr Young,

It's not the same kind of incense the one from old school pure tropical sativas compared with the incense of more modern hybrids and refined strains bred for these type of terpene profiles.

Oldtimer's Haze is old school, unrefined, slightly incensey, although the right Oldtimer's Haze incensey parental plants produce much louder incense profiles when they are outcrossed with other strains wth high terpene content, especially if the other strains are also incensey. So Oldtimer's Haze is old school tropical sativa incense while Kali China is new school type of incense. Haze x Kali China produces a blend of old and new school incensey terpenes, as described in the official description of the strain.

We hope to offer next year indian sativa landraces through our website.
 
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