Has Anyone Tried Inoculating Cannabis Seeds Like One Might do Legumes, with Rhizobia??

[moose eater]

I was re-reading about our legumes in the garden, and the reason(s) we inoculate the seeds with Rhizobia, and most of the way through my reading, it occurred to me, cannabis being the N-loving plant that it is, "I wonder if this might be a helpful or functional thing?"

And no, I didn't first search this out in/on Google, or the forums here at ICMag.

 

[moose eater]

I was re-reading about our legumes in the garden, and the reason(s) we inoculate the seeds with Rhizobia, and most of the way through my reading, it occurred to me, cannabis being the N-loving plant that it is, "I wonder if this might be a helpful or functional thing?"

And no, I didn't first search this out in/on Google, or the forums here at ICMag.

And lo and behold, the top of the Google search page results... The beginning of some sort of info, anyway... From NIH of all places. Not necessarily the angle I'd been thinking about, but hey.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6698789/

 

[moose eater]

Exploring The Use of Seed Inoculation For Plant Growth

www.seedtoday.com

 

[acespicoli]

I think there are some strains that have the proper roots systems for this the nitrogen fixing nodules. There are also some other beneficials that work well with cannabis id look into as well

For published scientific findings I have some sig links and @Sam_Skunkman has worked tirelessly on links for data
See if he has or can catalog what you find

 

[moose eater]

I think there are some strains that have the proper roots systems for this the nitrogen fixing nodules. There are also some other beneficials that work well with cannabis id look into as well

I also wondered if there are built-in conflicts between Rhizobia and other more common cannabis related mycorrhizae? for example, when I transplant, I use Great White or similar, putting a dusting in each hole. But the method for Rhizobia with legumes is to dampen the seeds and coat them in the inoculant.

 

[mudballs]

Yeah i did inoculation
mudballs-alternate-germination-method-pre-inoculating
The images are gone for some reason, is from 2014 so...but it's based on crop seed tech...they put multiple layers of dried film on a seed, each layer a different affecting inoculant. Soybean, corn, etc...they have machines that spray the seeds by the millions and i just put some myco in some paste mud around the seed, let it dry, then planted as normal.
Science says that seeds roots had a mycorhizo colony at start but whether it did well i don't know...sort of gave up on myco once i started making my own soil from forest floor.

 

[moose eater]

Yeah i did inoculation
mudballs-alternate-germination-method-pre-inoculating
The images are gone for some reason, is from 2014 so...but it's based on crop seed tech...they put multiple layers of dried film on a seed, each layer a different affecting inoculant. Soybean, corn, etc...they have machines that spray the seeds by the millions and i just put some myco in some paste mud around the seed, let it dry, then planted as normal.
Science says that seeds roots had a mycorhizo colony at start but whether it did well i don't know...sort of gave up on myco once i started making my own soil from forest floor.

At your riu link it appears as though you perceived some benefit to pre-inoculation, yes?

Any ideas about combining regular legume/pea inoculant as a coating on cannabis seeds, with the more common use of cannabis-type mycorrhizae in the transplant hole?

 

[mudballs]

It's been so long since i messed with it, I'd need to read up to answer proper...and I'm at work. Will get back to you on this moose

 

[mudballs]

At your riu link it appears as though you perceived some benefit to pre-inoculation, yes?

Any ideas about combining regular legume/pea inoculant as a coating on cannabis seeds, with the more common use of cannabis-type mycorrhizae in the transplant hole?

Legume inoculant is Rhizobia, which is an endophyte, but not a C.Sativa specific microbiome bacteria...so i can't say if it would impart benefits, or compete against other microbiota that would benefit the plant more.

"Real mycorrhizal networks take time to develop. Longer than a single grow. That’s the reason most living soil folks prefer no-till"

That's why i tried inoculating, get the shit started from the word go (germination) and see if it's worth it. I don't think it is if you have good soil. Sure we've all seen the Great White Myco root porn pics and who could question such a benefit...i could, you see the plant spent all those resources (nutes) making sick looking root porn...and not above ground goodness...i don't smoke roots guys.
"Accumulated evidence established that endophytes are capable of eliciting physiological plant responses"
"Plant-growth promoting rhizobacteria (PGPR) and endophytes stimulate plant growth by producing phytohormones such as auxins [50] gibberellins (GAs) abscisic acid (ABA), and ethylene (ET), or by modulating the plant’s endogenous phytohormone levels"

So we don't want root porn, waste of money, we want the ones that
"The concentration of cannabinoid compounds can be conceivably stimulated through biotic elicitation by symbiotic and or mutualistic relationships with endophytes"
sadly we haven't gotten that far but hey, sched 3 by DEA will help get the ball rolling...fkn finaly.

i think pre-inoculating imparts a benefit, we just need to work on it more. Just dumping a tbsp of myco at transplant i don't think is worth it unless ur going bigger than 7gals and a good long veg. Once i know exactly which endophytes elicit the precise response we want, higher cannabinoid profile, I'll be all up on pre-inoculation again. Until then im happy with the microbiota that comes in the bag of fert i use from Dr.Earth and the soils already existing biota. I really am sold on the less-is-better approach the more i grow this plant

 

[moose eater]

Legume inoculant is Rhizobia, which is an endophyte, but not a C.Sativa specific microbiome bacteria...so i can't say if it would impart benefits, or compete against other microbiota that would benefit the plant more.

"Real mycorrhizal networks take time to develop. Longer than a single grow. That’s the reason most living soil folks prefer no-till"

That's why i tried inoculating, get the shit started from the word go (germination) and see if it's worth it. I don't think it is if you have good soil. Sure we've all seen the Great White Myco root porn pics and who could question such a benefit...i could, you see the plant spent all those resources (nutes) making sick looking root porn...and not above ground goodness...i don't smoke roots guys.
"Accumulated evidence established that endophytes are capable of eliciting physiological plant responses"
"Plant-growth promoting rhizobacteria (PGPR) and endophytes stimulate plant growth by producing phytohormones such as auxins [50] gibberellins (GAs) abscisic acid (ABA), and ethylene (ET), or by modulating the plant’s endogenous phytohormone levels"

So we don't want root porn, waste of money, we want the ones that
"The concentration of cannabinoid compounds can be conceivably stimulated through biotic elicitation by symbiotic and or mutualistic relationships with endophytes"
sadly we haven't gotten that far but hey, sched 3 by DEA will help get the ball rolling...fkn finaly.

i think pre-inoculating imparts a benefit, we just need to work on it more. Just dumping a tbsp of myco at transplant i don't think is worth it unless ur going bigger than 7gals and a good long veg. Once i know exactly which endophytes elicit the precise response we want, higher cannabinoid profile, I'll be all up on pre-inoculation again. Until then im happy with the microbiota that comes in the bag of fert i use from Dr.Earth and the soils already existing biota. I really am sold on the less-is-better approach the more i grow this plant

My thinking is/was that if the roots get super-charged, so to speak, early on, then that OUGHT to benefit the plant on the whole in later life, no?

Not that theoretical or hypothetical logic necessarily converts well to reality all the time...

Edit: Over time I am now using 7-gallon polymer/plastic pots and try to let my soilless mixes sit a good 3 months or so before using them. This isn't always possible, however.

 

[mudballs]

My thinking is/was that if the roots get super-charged, so to speak, early on, then that OUGHT to benefit the plant on the whole in later life, no?

Not that theoretical or hypothetical logic necessarily converts well to reality all the time...

Edit: Over time I am now using 7-gallon polymer/plastic pots and try to let my soilless mixes sit a good 3 months or so before using them. This isn't always possible, however.

The thinking is we can't supercharge the root system the right way yet. Think about it like we have a guy training for a marathon by doing arm curls only...we want the plant putting that supercharge not into roots, but the smokable end product. Big rootballs benefit the plant sure, a root based symbiosis relationship to make more roots isn't what i want to put the plants effort, my time, my electricity, my water, etc into. It's not a problem i come across nor need improvement on.
Im looking for a science paragraph i guess that says B.megaterium increases canabinoids...or G.clarum increased flavanoids...
that would put me back on myco research. I've seen huge rootballs on shitty small plants and I've seen tiny rootballs produce high yields of beautiful smoke...think 12oz challenge. So nah, root idgaf about so much nowadays sir, tbh.

 

[moose eater]

The thinking is we can't supercharge the root system the right way yet. Think about it like we have a guy training for a marathon by doing arm curls only...we want the plant putting that supercharge not into roots, but the smokable end product. Big rootballs benefit the plant sure, a root based symbiosis relationship to make more roots isn't what i want to put the plants effort, my time, my electricity, my water, etc into. It's not a problem i come across nor need improvement on.
Im looking for a science paragraph i guess that says B.megaterium increases canabinoids...or G.clarum increased flavanoids...
that would put me back on myco research. I've seen huge rootballs on shitty small plants and I've seen tiny rootballs produce high yields of beautiful smoke...think 12oz challenge. So nah, root idgaf about so much nowadays sir, tbh.

My thinking was that the roots deliver all sorts of good stuff to the plant above ground, and if they're better suited to deliver the nutrients (hopefully of all sorts, though Rhizobia is concerned primarily with N) then the plant will benefit in the long run, even if energy went into the roots initially. If that makes any sense.

 

[mudballs]

There is "too much of a good thing" and that applies to all aspects of life. This plant doesn't require as much N as assumed by many and it is consensus i believe to reduce N at flower...so...can't turn off a large node count on a large rootball...still just pumping all that into the plant when we don't want it to keep doing it.

 

[moose eater]

There is "too much of a good thing" and that applies to all aspects of life. This plant doesn't require as much N as assumed by many and it is consensus i believe to reduce N at flower...so...can't turn off a large node count on a large rootball...still just pumping all that into the plant when we don't want it to keep doing it.

Yes, and I've been guilty of 'too much love' in feeding/growing in the past. There's also the slower break-down of some organics and trying to work toward a no-feed or minimal feed organic mix was part of the equation in the past. Still is, really. Though I've found I have to add something somewhere along the line, no matter what.

And I also have cut way back on N during flowering and especially the tail end of flowering, including having different mixes for veg and flowering at one point.

 

[mudballs]

Yes, and I've been guilty of 'too much love' in feeding/growing in the past. There's also the slower break-down of some organics and trying to work toward a no-feed or minimal feed organic mix was part of the equation in the past. Still is, really. Though I've found I have to add something somewhere along the line, no matter what.

And I also have cut way back on N during flowering and especially the tail end of flowering, including having different mixes for veg and flowering at one point.

I was amped just like you, back in 2014 when i started and didn't know shit...but like you, something told me this has to be a good thing...improve,...advance...enhance.
Then, i don't know i noticed it all slowed down for me and i see the whole grow cycle differently now...not all matrix like and shit, but...i got a good dose of 'this plant don't need much' and that timing is probably more critical than all the other stuff

 

[moose eater]

I was amped just like you, back in 2014 when i started and didn't know shit...but like you, something told me this has to be a good thing...improve,...advance...enhance.
Then, i don't know i noticed it all slowed down for me and i see the whole grow cycle differently now...not all matrix like and shit, but...i got a good dose of 'this plant don't need much' and that timing is probably more critical than all the other stuff

I've been growing for a long time, but this thing with Rhizobia had never occurred to me before. Just to clarify.

 

[mudballs]

I've been a weed nerd for only 10, but i try to support anyone with what i can find from our forebears that can help us make a good step forward...or avoid pitfalls

 

[moose eater]

I had years of what could be termed 'beginners' luck' with incredible results, then put in a new well about 24 years ago or so and ended up with a whole new water chemistry as a result.

That, coupled with the variances of quality or fluid nature of actual content in organic amendments, and sometimes trying to improve things that were probably good enough, have all contributed at times to making simple things more complex than they needed to be.

Sometimes trying to find perfection leads to a lot of tail-chasing with minimal payoffs or rewards, too.

 

[mudballs]

A complex life is a life well lived

 

[moose eater]

A complex life is a life well lived

And sometimes the complexities can create unnecessary rabbit holes to fall into and crawl out of, too.