Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[wygram]

Hey madpengiun

Before I ask my noobish electric question I'm going to say that the work will be done by a professional, I'm just trying to understand what might be involved...

how would you wire a new dedicated 240v and 30A circuit from the main panel? The distance from there to the room is roughly 50-60 feet.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Bozo]

Does a 120 volt coil water solenoid valve rely on the bonded plumbing of your house to pick up the ground?
I recently installed one using garden hose .This broke the bond so I added a ground to the body of the valve.Valve coil only has 2 wires .
I already grounded mine just wondering if I am correct in assuming that the ground for these comes from your plumbing and if you bypass that grounded plumbing ,do you infact need a ground to the valve body ?

I dont wanna tell folk they need to ground those valves if I am wrong .Way I see it everything needs grounded

 

[Budsworth]

Madpenguin...great thread.

I'm wondering if you have any types of designs for a timer box. Not the flip flop that I've seen everywhere. Just a timer box.

Tomorrow, I'm running for my room, two individual runs of 12-2 romex for two independent 20 amp 110 circuits....and one run of 10-3 romex for one 30 amp 220 circuit.

The 220 is for my ballasts. But I'd also like to make sure that when the lights come on (for either side) that the hood/light exhaust leg of my ventilation system come on at the same time the lights do. Now, obviously, the vent fan is 110.

I'm trying to figure out a way to install a 220 receptacle in the wall...divide everything up amongst outlets for both the 220 ballasts...and the 110 fan...and put it all on timers. And of course...I'd like to make a timer box where I could do a veg side and a bloom side. And I was hoping to put it all in one unit. If timers needed to be on outside...fine (and probably better). I have a friend who is an electrician. He however has very little time on his hands to design something like this for me. He's also doing all the hooking up for free (I get to go in the crawlspace and run all the wire...hold me...I'm frightened).

Any ideas you can offer up would be fantastic? I'd certainly go over them with my electrician friend. I explained to him what I wanted to do, and he sounded intrigued. But he is very busy, and this is his first time doing a grown room. I know it's your obvious area of expertise...and I'm sure you've designed one by hand.

This is kind of what I was hoping to design...but hopefully for less money.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...CBYQzAMwAA&cid=8550122140723434989&sa=title#p

Thanks MP

 

[madpenguin]

how would you wire a new dedicated 240v and 30A circuit from the main panel? The distance from there to the room is roughly 50-60 feet.

Well, if you think you can do it safely, your more than welcome to do it yourself. That's pretty much the purpose of this thread....

Buy a roll of 10/2 with ground. It's the orange flat stuff. Hopefully they sell 100' rolls in your area. I know they sell 50' rolls but you want one continuous run so..... Hopefully a 250' roll isn't your only option.

Buy a 30A Double Pole breaker. It takes up 2 slots in your panel. Hook the white wire onto one screw and the black wire onto the other screw. Wrap black electrical tape around the white wire at both ends. There is a detailed tutorial on this around page 3 and page 5 maybe.... Everything of import is really in the first 10 pages of this thread.

The receptacle you need depends on what your trying to do. I doubt an electrician will hook that 10/2 up to anything but a NEMA 14-30R, a 10-30R or a 6-30R.....

What going on at the business end of that 30A run?

 

[madpenguin]

Does a 120 volt coil water solenoid valve rely on the bonded plumbing of your house to pick up the ground?
I recently installed one using garden hose .This broke the bond so I added a ground to the body of the valve.Valve coil only has 2 wires .
I already grounded mine just wondering if I am correct in assuming that the ground for these comes from your plumbing and if you bypass that grounded plumbing ,do you infact need a ground to the valve body ?

I dont wanna tell folk they need to ground those valves if I am wrong .Way I see it everything needs grounded

No, you shouldn't need a ground for those. It should just be a 2 wire solenoid. Hot and neutral. And if switching, the hot is the one that needs to be switched.

I'm guessing these are metal solenoids and both coil contacts are electrically isolated from the housing?

For safety purposes tho, yea... Everything should be grounded. It shouldn't affect the operation of the solenoid anyway.

 

[bobdobalina420]

Madpenguin - I have gone though this thread and read a bunch, thanks for all the good insight! Can I just please confirm with you a few things: I am running 10/3 from my main panel with a 30amp double pole breaker to my room. I plan on using 2 - 1000 watt lights, possibly adding a 3rd 600 watt all at 240 volt...these will be for flowering only so I will use 1 Intermatic Timer to control the 2-3 lights....So I know about hooking up all the rest, but is this sufficient for what I am trying to accomplish? Would there be the benefit of a sub panel inside my room for my situation and what would be the minimum size wire and breaker I would need from the run in my main panel? THANK YOU SO MUCH AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR INFORMATION!! GOOD KARMA!!!!!!!!!

 

[madpenguin]

Madpenguin...great thread.

I'm wondering if you have any types of designs for a timer box. Not the flip flop that I've seen everywhere. Just a timer box.

Tomorrow, I'm running for my room, two individual runs of 12-2 romex for two independent 20 amp 110 circuits....and one run of 10-3 romex for one 30 amp 220 circuit.

The 220 is for my ballasts. But I'd also like to make sure that when the lights come on (for either side) that the hood/light exhaust leg of my ventilation system come on at the same time the lights do. Now, obviously, the vent fan is 110.

I'm trying to figure out a way to install a 220 receptacle in the wall...divide everything up amongst outlets for both the 220 ballasts...and the 110 fan...and put it all on timers. And of course...I'd like to make a timer box where I could do a veg side and a bloom side. And I was hoping to put it all in one unit. If timers needed to be on outside...fine (and probably better). I have a friend who is an electrician. He however has very little time on his hands to design something like this for me. He's also doing all the hooking up for free (I get to go in the crawlspace and run all the wire...hold me...I'm frightened).

Any ideas you can offer up would be fantastic? I'd certainly go over them with my electrician friend. I explained to him what I wanted to do, and he sounded intrigued. But he is very busy, and this is his first time doing a grown room. I know it's your obvious area of expertise...and I'm sure you've designed one by hand.

This is kind of what I was hoping to design...but hopefully for less money.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...CBYQzAMwAA&cid=8550122140723434989&sa=title#p

Thanks MP

Yea. That's the fun stuff. Not crawling thru insulation in 130 degree attics but sitting down and making some really nice timer and flip boxes....

I have several idea's and it would only run you about... Crap. 60 bucks maybe. eh.. 100 tops. And it will look slick to boot.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...7-2&AID=10368321&cj=true&srccode=cii_13736960

You could either dremel that right into the front cover of a 6x6x4 enclosure or use a Bell box attached to one of the knockouts...

I have a million ideas for homemade timer boxes. Pretty sure all of them incorporate a a DPST relay with 120v coil contacts tho. Atleast for a 240 box or a 120 multiwire....

All you would have to do is double tap one hot leg of the line out on the relay along with the neutral of the 10/3 and you could wire a 15A 5-15R receptacle that powers up with your 240 lights. That would be for a light rail and aircooled duct fan and the like.

Let me look at my flip parts to date and I can mock something up.

 

[Budsworth]

Yea. That's the fun stuff. Not crawling thru insulation in 130 degree attics but sitting down and making some really nice timer and flip boxes....

I have several idea's and it would only run you about... Crap. 60 bucks maybe. eh.. 100 tops. And it will look slick to boot.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...7-2&AID=10368321&cj=true&srccode=cii_13736960

You could either dremel that right into the front cover of a 6x6x4 enclosure or use a Bell box attached to one of the knockouts...

I have a million ideas for homemade timer boxes. Pretty sure all of them incorporate a a DPST relay with 120v coil contacts tho. Atleast for a 240 box or a 120 multiwire....

All you would have to do is double tap one hot leg of the line out on the relay along with the neutral of the 10/3 and you could wire a 15A 5-15R receptacle that powers up with your 240 lights. That would be for a light rail and aircooled duct fan and the like.

Let me look at my flip parts to date and I can mock something up.

You rock man. Thanks.

And that little timer would do it? I was looking at a pair of Intermatic timers...one for veg...one for bloom. Something like this:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/Intermatic-Time-Switches/

But as we both know...those bad boys are expensive. I was just told by an experienced grower to take my timers seriously...as that is an easy place for fires to start if it's not an ample enough timer.

But with something like that? F'ing A, son, cheap as hell to make a box.

Going over to electrician friends house right now to get a fish tape for tomorrow.

 

[wygram]

The receptacle you need depends on what your trying to do. I doubt an electrician will hook that 10/2 up to anything but a NEMA 14-30R, a 10-30R or a 6-30R.....

What going on at the business end of that 30A run?

That actually answers one of my biggest questions about hiring a professional, whether or not they would wire a 240 line up to receptacles suitable for out purposes.

On the end of that run I'm planning on 3 or 4 600w digital ballasts, so I would like 4 outlets (probably 4 x 6-30R in a 4 gang box?). I went through the thread but I couldn't really find clear information on properly wiring a 4 gang box... lots of pig-tailing I presume?

also would you recommend getting a 30A GFCI breaker to start the run?

Any tips for running wire through the house for a run that will require going vertically and probably horizontally?

 

[madpenguin]

that little timer would do it? I was looking at a pair of Intermatic timers...one for veg...one for bloom. Something like this:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/Intermatic-Time-Switches/

But as we both know...those bad boys are expensive. I was just told by an experienced grower to take my timers seriously...as that is an easy place for fires to start if it's not an ample enough timer.

He's right, but why buy $100 dollars worth of water heater timers when you can use a $25 dollar 40A DPST relay with a 120v coil and a low wattage but nice looking digital timer? You said you were going to run 10/3.... You only need 10/2 for 240v but since your running 10/3 that makes things all the better. That will give you a neutral to run any 120v appliances that you want to come on at the same time as your 240v lights, as well as providing a neutral for the cheap timer and the coil contacts for the relay.

Well, you can have 2 -120v receptacles. One that is timed to come on with your 240v receptacles and one that is always hot. The configurations are endless (as long as you get a big enough enclosure and use a big enough circuit).

But with something like that? F'ing A, son, cheap as hell to make a box.

Yea. That's the idea. The only load that timer will see is what ever the center coil contacts of the relay draws, which is probably a quarter amp at most. It's the actual relay that does all the heavy lifting. The only thing the timer does is close the relay contacts.

If your in a hurry I can explain in detail how to make one other wise I can post a mockup tutorial by this weekend. Pictures and all that stuff. It's really pretty easy stuff once you understand how relays work.

Some people prefer to use the water heater timers and others prefer to use relays and a cheapo timer. I'll give you a quick parts list for the cheapo way (but still just as safe). Some may argue the intermatics are better and they are right to a certain degree. I'll discuss the pitfalls of this method if your interested.

Parts list:

6x6x4 enclosure - gray powder coat finish with KO's

Here is a single gang gray powder coat finish Bell Box

Here is a double gang gray powder coat finish Bell Box

Here is a DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) Relay: You DONT want this for your timer box but this is what you would use for a flip. That's also only 25A and low voltage coil contacts. Just using it as a picture.

If you want the proper DPDT relay to build a 2 ballast 120v flip, then this is the one:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5X847


Here is a DPST (Double Pole Single Throw) Relay. This is what you want for your timer box:

More specifically, this is the one you want:
http://www.levitonsupplies.com/itw1199opstp.html
or this one
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5Z546

That's a 30A DPST Relay with 120v coil contacts.

For lots more info on relays, please see Page 38 Post #570 of this sticky

Then you would want a NEMA 14-30R receptacle which is what you would tie the 10/3 homerun into and flush mount/old work it into a gang box in the wall if at all possible.

Plate it:

A 14-30P 30A cord: The other end just has 4 loose wires. Red,black,white and green, all #10 stranded.

A 30A DP breaker for the main panel: This is a siemens. Just make sure you get the proper type breaker for your main panel.

Then get your self an in-wall timer. What ever brand you prefer. Just make sure it's 120v 2 wire. Will probably have 2 black wires. One is an incoming hot and the other is the outgoing hot. It should also have a neutral wire to power the display.

Get yourself quite a few of these. They are #10 crimp on fork, or spade, terminal connectors. They should be rated for 600v. I highly suggest you use a ratchet crimper instead of the "squeeze" on crimper. You would terminate one of these each to the 4 loose ends of the 14-30P cord. Well... Just do the red and black actually.

Get some of these: #14 Blue crimp on terminal connectors: These will terminate to both of the black wires coming from the timer. One to one of the center contacts of the relay (wire labeled load). The other timer wire will terminate with the incoming black #10 wire to an outer post of the relay (wire labeled line). The red incoming wire will terminate to the other outer post of the relay (same side tho, the other pole).

Your incoming #10 neutral will be wire nutted to a #14 stranded white conductor that has one of the blue fork terminals on the other end. That #14 terminates to the other center contact of the relay.

Hope I'm not loosing you. I'll do a mock wire up in a day or so. Ok, so the timer is fired up and so is the incoming side of your relay.

You need to pick which Bell boxes your going to use. Probably the double gang ones will work the best. Attach one to the right side and one to the left side. Use a metal NM conector to attach the Bell boxes to the 6x6x4 enclosure:

Uh, throw the digital timer in the right hand double gang closest to the enclosure. Then put a regular 15A receptacle right next to it (to the right of the timer) in the same gang box.

Wire nut a #14 white solid underneath the other neutrals in the 6x6x4 and route it into the right double gang box with the timer. Attach it to the silver screw of the receptacle. Please don't backstab your receptacles. You'll probably also need a stranded white #14 to attach to the timer.

Take a #14 black solid wire and crimp a blue fork connector onto one end really good with your ratchet crimper. Put that under one of the open relay contacts. The one that is directly opposite of the incoming black #10 (So it's on the same "pole" but on the "load out" screw of the relay). The other end of that #14 black solid conductor terminates to the brass screw on the 15A receptacle. No fork terminal, just hook the solid conductor around the screw terminal of the receptacle. Same deal with the #14 white solid neutral on the receptacle.

With me so far?

So far you've got an always hot timer and a timed 15A duplex receptacle. The timer and duplex receptacles are in the same double gang Bell Box.

Now lets jump over to the left hand double gang bell box that is still empty. Take a #10 black stranded and also a #10 red stranded. These can be had by the foot at Lowes or Home Depot. Crimp the hell out of one end of the black and one end of the red with one of those yellow fork terminals. Put the black wire under the terminal that already has a black #14 on it. The one that is feeding the 15A receptacle. Take the red wire fork end and terminate it to the only left over screw on the relay. It will be on the same pole as the incoming red #10 feed only on the other end of the pole (the outgoing feed screw).

Take both those red and black #10 stranded wires and route them into the left hand double gang box. You need two red wire nuts and some Nema 6-20R's. 2 of them, duplex style.

Now, make sure your ballast power cords will mate with those. They should. Take some red and black solid #12 wire and wirenut 2 black pigtails to the incoming stranded #10 feed using a red wire nut. Do the same thing with the red conductor. One black to one side of a receptacle and a red to the other side of the same receptacle. Repeat for the left over receptacle.

Now, as a last step, get a ground bar kit. Something small. I prefer to use cuttler hammer because they have the cool green screws.

Try to polish/sand a small portion of the gray paint off the inside of the enclosure and mount the ground bar to the inside on the bare metal. You'll probably have to pre-drill some holes to mount it.

Oh yea.... Mount that relay in there as well.

Use all #12 solid green insulated conductor for your grounds. Take 4 pieces of the green #12 and wirenut one of them to the incoming #10 green feeder cord. Use a red wirenut for this. Hell, maybe a white one will give you a better fit. Dunno. Terminate that #12 that you just wire nutted to the ground bar. Take another #12 green and run it over to the 15A receptacle. Take the other 2 and terminate them to the 240v receptacles. You should have one space left on the ground bar. If the 120v timer has a ground screw, then do the same thing for that.

Plate both your double gang boxes. Use this one for the 240v timed left gang box: If you can find one in powder coat gray then all the better.

Plate the right hand double gang box with one of these. Make sure it's metal and again, powder coat gray would be cherry:

That's it unless I accidentally forgot something. That'll make a nice timer box. Just make sure you've calculated your load that you'll be drawing and make sure you stay under 24A for that box.

Remember, the ballasts are 240 and whatever you plug into that timed 15A receptacle is 120 so add your 120 and 240 loads properly when doing a load calc.

Also remember AT ALL TIMES that we are mixing and matching gauges of wire here which is a BIG no-no. The NEC expressly forbids it!!!! If you only use #14 to the 15A receptacle, then please always beaware that it's limited to 12A. Again, with your 2 20A duplex receptacles, we used #12 solid. Make sure that each receptacle will never see more than 16A.

But you've got an even more overall concern and that's to also make sure that the #10 wire used throughout never sees more than 24A.........

ALWAYS keep a constant vigil on your loads when mixing and matching wire gauges, breakers and receptacles. If you don't, the chances of a fire are all but certain. In fact, I'll gurantee that thing will go up in flames if you don't keep an eye on what you plug into that. What you really should do is use #10 EVERYWHERE and atleast use spec grade 20A receptacles everywhere. That will GREATLY reduce the risk of something catching on fire or melting down. In fact, I will all but guarantee it'll be 100% safe if you use #10 everywhere and try to limit the use of the spade connectors. Working with that much #10 is going to be a bitch tho. It can still be done however...... That was my Public Service Announcement. You guys would be wise to heed it whenever possible.

Hey... Also, you can use nothing but stranded wire and spade connectors on all ends for the receptacle connections. I don't really like it as a personal preference, so that's why I was just telling you to crimp the relay connections and then use straight up solid copper to connect to the receptacles. For some reason, I just REALLY don't trust those spade connectors. This is why I pretty much insist that you use a ratchet crimper because they make a better connection thereby is more likely to reduce/eliminate any hot spots and resistance from a crappy mis-crimp....

I don't know. Try to use solid as much as possible. Especially on things like the ground bar. Those terminal screws are NOT rated for stranded wire. Neither are the screws on a receptacle. Or the screws on that relay for that matter. The conundrum is, that you will have too many wires to fit under some of those relay screws so we are pretty much forced to use a spade connector..... Just be leary of those suckers and make sure you get a solid connection with them.

 

[madpenguin]

wygram, I'll post in the AM. Getting late here. I think some of the above may also answer some of your questions.....

 

[Budsworth]

He's right, but why buy $100 dollars worth of water heater timers when you can use a $25 dollar 40A DPST relay with a 120v coil and a low wattage but nice looking digital timer? You said you were going to run 10/3.... You only need 10/2 for 240v but since your running 10/3 that makes things all the better. That will give you a neutral to run any 120v appliances that you want to come on at the same time as your 240v lights, as well as providing a neutral for the cheap timer and the coil contacts for the relay.

Well, you can have 2 -120v receptacles. One that is timed to come on with your 240v receptacles and one that is always hot. The configurations are endless (as long as you get a big enough enclosure and use a big enough circuit).

Yea. That's the idea. The only load that timer will see is what ever the center coil contacts of the relay draws, which is probably a quarter amp at most. It's the actual relay that does all the heavy lifting. The only thing the timer does is close the relay contacts.

If your in a hurry I can explain in detail how to make one other wise I can post a mockup tutorial by this weekend. Pictures and all that stuff. It's really pretty easy stuff once you understand how relays work.

Some people prefer to use the water heater timers and others prefer to use relays and a cheapo timer. I'll give you a quick parts list for the cheapo way (but still just as safe). Some may argue the intermatics are better and they are right to a certain degree. I'll discuss the pitfalls of this method if your interested.

Parts list:

6x6x4 enclosure - gray powder coat finish with KO's

Here is a single gang gray powder coat finish Bell Box

Here is a double gang gray powder coat finish Bell Box

Here is a DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) Relay: You DONT want this for your timer box but this is what you would use for a flip. That's also only 25A and low voltage coil contacts. Just using it as a picture.

If you want the proper DPDT relay to build a flip, then this is the one:
http://shop.willyselectronics.com/b...-30a-relay,-heavy-duty-industrial/4,6791.html


Here is a DPST (Double Pole Single Throw) Relay. This is what you want for your timer box:

More specifically, this is the one you want:
http://www.levitonsupplies.com/itw1199opstp.html

That's a 40A DPST Relay with 120v coil contacts.

Then you would want a NEMA 14-30R receptacle which is what you would tie the 10/3 homerun into and flush mount/old work it into a gang box in the wall if at all possible.

Plate it:

A 14-30P 30A cord: The other end just has 4 loose wires. Red,black,white and green, all #10 stranded.

A 30A DP breaker for the main panel: This is a siemens. Just make sure you get the proper type breaker for your main panel.

Then get your self an in-wall timer. What ever brand you prefer. Just make sure it's 120v 2 wire. Will probably have 2 black wires. One is an incoming hot and the other is the outgoing hot.

Get yourself quite a few of these. They are #10 crimp on fork, or spade, terminal connectors. They should be rated for 600v. I highly suggest you use a ratchet crimper instead of the "squeeze" on crimper. You would terminate one of these each to the 4 loose ends of the 14-30P cord. Well... Just do the red and black actually.

Get some of these: #14 Blue crimp on terminal connectors: These will terminate to both of the black wires coming from the timer. One to one of the center contacts of the relay (wire labeled load). The other timer wire will terminate with the incoming black #10 wire to an outer post of the relay (wire labeled line). The red incoming wire will terminate to the other outer post of the relay (same side tho, the other pole).

Your incoming #10 neutral will be wire nutted to a #14 stranded white conductor that has one of the blue fork terminals on the other end. That #14 terminates to the other center contact of the relay.

Hope I'm not loosing you. I'll do a mock wire up in a day or so. Ok, so the timer is fired up and so is the incoming side of your relay.

You need to pick which Bell boxes your going to use. Probably the double gang ones will work the best. Attach one to the right side and one to the left side. Use a metal NM conector to attach the Bell boxes to the 6x6x4 enclosure:

Uh, throw the digital timer in the right hand double gang closest to the enclosure. Then put a regular 15A receptacle right next to it (to the right of the timer) in the same gang box.

Wire nut a #14 white solid underneath the other neutrals in the 6x6x4 and route it into the right double gang box with the timer. Attach it to the silver screw of the receptacle. Please don't backstab your receptacles.

Take a #14 black solid wire and crimp a blue fork connector onto one end really good with your ratchet crimper. Put that under one of the open relay contacts. The one that is directly opposite of the incoming black #10 (So it's on the same "pole"). The other end of that #14 black solid conductor terminates to the brass screw on the 15A receptacle. No fork terminal, just hook the solid conductor around the screw terminal. Same deal with the #14 white solid neutral on the receptacle.

With me so far?

So far you've got an always hot timer and a timed 15A duplex receptacle. The timer and duplex receptacles are in the same double gang Bell Box.

Now lets jump over to the left hand double gang bell box that is still empty. Take a #10 black stranded and also a #10 red stranded. These can be had by the foot at Lowes or Home Depot. Crimp the hell out of one end of the black and one end of the red with one of those yellow fork terminals. Put the black wire under the terminal that already has a black #14 on it. The one that is feeding the 15A receptacle. Take the red wire fork end and terminate it to the only left over screw on the relay. It will be on the same pole as the incoming red #10 feed.

Take both those red and black #10 stranded wires and route them into the left hand double gang box. You need two red wire nuts and some Nema 6-20R's. 2 of them, duplex style.

Now, make sure your ballast power cords will mate with those. They should. Take some red and black solid #12 wire and wirenut 2 black pigtails to the incoming stranded #10 feed using a red wire nut. Do the same thing with the red conductor. One black to one side of a receptacle and a red to the other side of the same receptacle. Repeat for the left over receptacle.

Now, as a last step, get a ground bar kit. Something small. I prefer to use cuttler hammer because they have the cool green screws.

Try to polish/sand a small portion of the gray paint off the inside of the enclosure and mount the ground bar to the inside on the bare metal. You'll probably have to pre-drill some holes to mount it.

Oh yea.... Mount that relay in there as well.

Use all #12 solid green insulated conductor for your grounds. Take 4 pieces of the green #12 and wirenut one of them to the incoming #10 green feeder cord. Use a red wirenut for this. Hell, maybe a white one will give you a better fit. Dunno. Terminate that #12 that you just wire nutted to the ground bar. Take another #12 green and run it over to the 15A receptacle. Take the other 2 and terminate them to the 240v receptacles. You should have one space left on the ground bar. If the 120v timer has a ground screw, then do the same thing for that.

Plate both your double gang boxes. Use this one for the 240v timed left gang box: If you can find one in powder coat gray then all the better.

Plate the right hand double gang box with one of these. Make sure it's metal and again, powder coat gray would be cherry:

That's it unless I accidentally forgot something. That'll make a nice timer box. Just make sure you've calculated your load that you'll be drawing and make sure you stay under 24A for that box.

Remember, the ballasts are 240 and whatever you plug into that timed 15A receptacle is 120 so add your 120 and 240 loads properly when doing a load calc.

Also remember AT ALL TIMES that we are mixing and matching gauges of wire here which is a general no-no. If you only use #14 to the 15A receptacle, then please always beaware that it's limited to 12A. Again, with your 2 20A duplex receptacles, we used #12 solid. Make sure that each receptacle will never see more than 16A.

But you've got an even more overall concern and that's to also make sure that the #10 wire used throughout never sees more than 24A.........

ALWAYS keep a constant vigil on your loads when mixing and matching wire gauges, breakers and receptacles. If you don't, the chances of a fire are all but certain.

Hey... Also, you can use nothing but stranded wire and spade conectors on all ends for the receptacle connections. I don't really like it as a personal preference, so that's why I was just telling you to crimp the relay conections and then use straight up solid copper to connect to the receptacles. For some reason, I just REALLY don't trust those spade connectors. This is why I pretty much insist that you use a ratchet crimper because they make a better connection thereby is more likely to reduce/eliminate any hot spots and resistance from a crappy mis-crimp....

I don't know. Try to use solid as much as possible. Especially on things like the ground bar. Those terminal screws are NOT rated for stranded wire. Neither are the screws on a receptacle. Or the screws on that relay for that matter. The conundrum is, that you will have too many wires to fit under some of those relay screws so we are pretty much forced to use a spade connector..... Just be leary of those suckers and make sure you get a solid connection with them.

Holy cow, man! Huge thanks.

Yes I understand relays. While I have very little experience with house hold electrical, once upon another life, I was MECP certified and used to do high end stereo systems in cars. We also used to alarms. We used relays all the time when installing alarms. Jaguars in particular as they were a 6 volt system and all aftermarket products needed 12 volts.

The 4 prong dryer plug was the exact one I was picturing. I tie in bare tails at work all the time with that plug on the end for power to tour buses. 60amp circuits. I've done it probably a thousand times. So when I pictured a dryer plug...that was the first one to pop into my mind.

Also, my electrician was the one that told me to run 10-3. SPECIFICALLY for the reason of using the neutral for the 110.

So no more than 24 amps you say. Nextgen 1000w draw 4.75@220. As I said, I would like to do two sides to the box. One for veg, one for bloom. 3 ballasts. That's approx 15amps. Light exhaust fan is saying .8 amps.

That's about it on the timed circuit.

Ventilation fan will be on one of the 110 20amp circuits. Same with oscillating fans.

So...I think I'm cool.

Really excellent tutorial man. And thanks for your time (no pun intended). I did my best to read as much of the thread as possible before asking questions. I had some ideas in my head, but for some reason about the obvious relay never crossed my mind. No idea why...but thank you.

Oh...and electrician friend gave me a timer that was lying around his garage:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/120581/Maple_Chase_EL72PC_120_Electronic_Time_Switch

It's kind of overkill. $400 timer. Asked if he wanted it back. He said it's just been lying around. So hey...free timer. It's so large...it'll obviously have to go on the outside of the box.

Showing this thread to electrician friend this weekend. He...like you...enjoys this part of his job.

 

[madpenguin]

So no more than 24 amps you say.

Yea... All your crap is a continuous load so needs to be derated to 80% of the circuit capacity.

Light exhaust fan is saying .8 amps.

Yea, plug that into the timed 15A receptacle obviously.

Ventilation fan will be on one of the 110 20amp circuits. Same with oscillating fans.

Eh.. Your going to want an always on receptacle then. Maybe put a single gang bell box up top and wire that directly to the incoming #10 feed. Only use the red wire for that since you used the black wire for the timed receptacle. Your going to want to balance the loads between L1 and L2 as much as possible when mixing 240 and 120 on the same circuit.

Oh...and electrician friend gave me a timer that was lying around his garage:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/120581/Maple_Chase_EL72PC_120_Electronic_Time_Switch

That is way overkill. I think you'd be better off to stick with the gang box timer. Will make your unit flow better. Form follows function.

Sounds like you get it all but I may do a mock up wire and post some pics just so anyone else in the future doesn't have to try and decipher what wire goes where. Since you know relays then you know what I'm taking about then.

 

[Budsworth]

Yea... All your crap is a continuous load so needs to be derated to 80% of the circuit capacity.

Yea, plug that into the timed 15A receptacle obviously.

Eh.. Your going to want an always on receptacle then. Maybe put a single gang bell box up top and wire that directly to the incoming #10 feed. Only use the red wire for that since you used the black wire for the timed receptacle. Your going to want to balance the loads between L1 and L2 as much as possible when mixing 240 and 120 on the same circuit.

That is way overkill. I think you'd be better off to stick with the gang box timer. Will make your unit flow better. Form follows function.

Sounds like you get it all but I may do a mock up wire and post some pics just so anyone else in the future doesn't have to try and decipher what wire goes where. Since you know relays then you know what I'm taking about then.

Was planning on putting the ventilation fan on one of the other two 12-2, always hot 110 20amp circuits I'm also running tomorrow and attaching a thermostat .

And a mock up would be fantastic. I can tell you I've searched the internet high and low for a thread diagramming a DIY timer box like the one I found for the flip box (that flip box post popped up multiple times). There is nothing out there. Yours will be the first I see. And I'm 100% it would be very helpful for many people.

Thanks for your time and effort, MP.

P.S. If he doesn't want that timer back...I may just hock it on ebay and pay for all the parts to make a box (and a DIY clone bucket I really want to build).

 

[madpenguin]

Madpenguin - I have gone though this thread and read a bunch, thanks for all the good insight!

Your not a member of the Church of the Sub Genius are you? Praise Bob if so...

Can I just please confirm with you a few things: I am running 10/3 from my main panel with a 30amp double pole breaker to my room. I plan on using 2 - 1000 watt lights, possibly adding a 3rd 600 watt all at 240 volt...these will be for flowering only so I will use 1 Intermatic Timer to control the 2-3 lights....So I know about hooking up all the rest, but is this sufficient for what I am trying to accomplish?

Yea.... That should be fine. Why are you running 10/3 tho? Buy an intermatic timer that uses a 240v clock motor and just run a 10/2 feed. Will save you some money on wire.

Would there be the benefit of a sub panel inside my room for my situation and what would be the minimum size wire and breaker I would need from the run in my main panel?

Well...... It all depends on future expansion.... I'm not really one to look to the future for anything and hindsight is a real bitch for me. That being the case, I've ran so much wire up to my grow room so many different times that I'm sick of doing it. You should see my panel. It's full of tandems and I even have a MWBC split over 2 tandems.... Atleast I put a note in my panel explaining what was going on for anyone in the future....

I was working fairly steady and growing was more of a hobby than anything. It really is a fun and interactive plant to grow, putting the money aspect of it aside..... So then the housing market took a plumet and I found myself really relying on the ladies in my room to pull me thru. Then I quickly realized that I needed to upscale to keep my head above water. That or get a job at McDonalds. Needless to say I chose to upscale.

Anyway. My point being, try to sit down on the couch for a bit and think of what you may be doing in that room one year from now... 2 years from now?

I make a big mistake here and forget that people actually use MJ for medical purposes. TBH, I don't really smoke it. Used to all the time but it just made me anxiety ridden once I hit a certain age. So I strictly use it for income. Every time I try to smoke it I start getting down on myself. I think I need to let it go extra long for that couchlock high is my biggest problem.

Oi... I'm getting side tracked. If you have the money to spare and your service is large enough and you don't want to be caught with your pants down later on, then sure.... Run a sub paneln and be done with it.

FYI, the NEC says the minimum ampacity subpanel you can install is 60A. It's either one branch circuit, a multiwire branch circuit or a 60A sub. Perhaps that's for feeding detached structures. Need to dig thru my NEC and find that section again.

Anyway.... The subpanel is up to you. Just depends on how much power you need in the room.

 

[bobdobalina420]

Your not a member of the Church of the Sub Genius are you? Praise Bob if so...

Yea.... That should be fine. Why are you running 10/3 tho? Buy an intermatic timer that uses a 240v clock motor and just run a 10/2 feed. Will save you some money on wire.

Well...... It all depends on future expansion.... I'm not really one to look to the future for anything and hindsight is a real bitch for me. That being the case, I've ran so much wire up to my grow room so many different times that I'm sick of doing it. You should see my panel. It's full of tandems and I even have a MWBC split over 2 tandems.... Atleast I put a note in my panel explaining what was going on for anyone in the future....

I was working fairly steady and growing was more of a hobby than anything. It really is a fun and interactive plant to grow, putting the money aspect of it aside..... So then the housing market took a plumet and I found myself really relying on the ladies in my room to pull me thru. Then I quickly realized that I needed to upscale to keep my head above water. That or get a job at McDonalds. Needless to say I chose to upscale.

Anyway. My point being, try to sit down on the couch for a bit and think of what you may be doing in that room one year from now... 2 years from now?

I make a big mistake here and forget that people actually use MJ for medical purposes. TBH, I don't really smoke it. Used to all the time but it just made me anxiety ridden once I hit a certain age. So I strictly use it for income. Every time I try to smoke it I start getting down on myself. I think I need to let it go extra long for that couchlock high is my biggest problem.

Oi... I'm getting side tracked. If you have the money to spare and your service is large enough and you don't want to be caught with your pants down later on, then sure.... Run a sub paneln and be done with it.

FYI, the NEC says the minimum ampacity subpanel you can install is 60A. It's either one branch circuit, a multiwire branch circuit or a 60A sub. Perhaps that's for feeding detached structures. Need to dig thru my NEC and find that section again.

Anyway.... The subpanel is up to you. Just depends on how much power you need in the room.

Man you are awesome!!! I am positive you have saved some lives and houses with your advice!!! I really think we should have an electrical specific forum with qualified moderators such as yourself...Additionally I would gladly pay a consultation fee for advice, just something for you to think about as far as setting up a website or something for such a thing...I am sure you could market that and find plenty of people that would want to consult with you!!!

Thanks again for getting back to me, I am more hindered by space than what I would like to expand to The most I would be able to fit is 3 hoods - so 2-1000 & 1-600 - In the same room I have home outlets already that I use for my smaller things...rather than potentially overloading these because of other household items being used in the future, I thought I would run 10/3 for the possibility of adding some 120v outlets if I needed....That would be my concern for expanding. So I need my 10/3 to support 3 - 240v Lights and 2-4 120v outlets. Also, I would use all spec grade hookups, etc. I was reading above and you mentioned the use of smaller gauge wire along with the spade connectors, I would prefer to leave absolutely nothing to chance. Peace to you and good karma!

 

[madpenguin]

That actually answers one of my biggest questions about hiring a professional, whether or not they would wire a 240 line up to receptacles suitable for out purposes.

On the end of that run I'm planning on 3 or 4 600w digital ballasts, so I would like 4 outlets (probably 4 x 6-30R in a 4 gang box?). I went through the thread but I couldn't really find clear information on properly wiring a 4 gang box... lots of pig-tailing I presume?

Well, a 6-30R is a 30A rated receptacle so an electrician will do that for you. However, I can all but guarantee your ballast powercords will only mate with a 6-20R and not a 6-30R.... So that means using the spec grade 20A 240v receptacles to plug your ballasts into (NEMA 6-20R). Unless ofcourse you feel like sniping off all those nice pre-made manufactured male plugs of your ballasts and wiring them up with a 6-30P male plug....

If the electrician was worth anything he would question doing that and even go so far as to refuse to use anything but a 30A rated receptacle. If you put 28A worth of current on a 6-20R for an extended period of time, it's gonna melt. I'll bet you it would. It's just a matter of when.

So no electrician is going risk loosing his license and getting sued for a house fire and loss of life because he didn't follow the NEC and practice safe wiring standards.

So unless you want to snip all your ballast power cords, this is a job your going to have to do yourself.

also would you recommend getting a 30A GFCI breaker to start the run?

Uh.... Probably not. I'm not even sure they make a 240v 30A double pole GFCI breaker in the first place.... I could be wrong about that tho.

Any tips for running wire through the house for a run that will require going vertically and probably horizontally?

That's a little vague but I did an old working tutorial in the beginning of this thread somewhere. Go read it and if you still have any questions, ask away.

 

[madpenguin]

Additionally I would gladly pay a consultation fee for advice, just something for you to think about as far as setting up a website or something for such a thing...I am sure you could market that and find plenty of people that would want to consult with you!!!

Yea.... That's always a possibility but seeing as how I grow, I need to stay under the radar. Just posting on here as much as I do isn't really the smartest of things to be doing. Especially since Skip refuses to address my concerns with icmag's shoddy SSL support. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=140956

I do this for the same reason I only charge 150 an ounce for Nirvana's Ice (actually, I feel like that's a little steep).... Karma. I want the PoPo to stay away from me and just leave me the fuck alone. America is turning into a fascist/communist country and any government that throws peace loving hippies into the same cell with a child molester has some serious issues. I don't support the crack heads or dope junkies in my community by selling pot. I sell to crunchy hippies and older 50+ baby boomer ex-hippies. In fact I should invest in some Hostess stock options because my local grocery store can hardly ever can keep the twinkies and hostess cupcakes in stock...

Anyway... I don't mind helping you guys out. Just be safe and don't get greedy. Keep it clean and treat your customers good and it all comes around.

Thanks again for getting back to me, I am more hindered by space than what I would like to expand to The most I would be able to fit is 3 hoods - so 2-1000 & 1-600 - In the same room I have home outlets already that I use for my smaller things...rather than potentially overloading these because of other household items being used in the future, I thought I would run 10/3 for the possibility of adding some 120v outlets if I needed....That would be my concern for expanding. So I need my 10/3 to support 3 - 240v Lights and 2-4 120v outlets. Also, I would use all spec grade hookups, etc. I was reading above and you mentioned the use of smaller gauge wire along with the spade connectors, I would prefer to leave absolutely nothing to chance. Peace to you and good karma!

You know what.... I'd probably advocate the use of the homemade timer box just as I described above in your situation. It sounds perfect for what you need to do.

The only thing you guys need to keep in mind when running both 240 and 120 loads on a whatever/3 cable, is that you MUST keep the 120v loads balanced between the red and black wires.

If you've read this thread, then you know that the neutral "carries the imbalance of the load". Always remember that. The neutral is not fused so we don't want to overload it.

O.k... Say you want 4 individual 120v receptacles on that same 30A run that powers your 240v lights. There is no balancing to do with a 240v load. It does it automatically. What the black wire see's the red wire see's....

So when your adding some 120v loads into the mix, this is what you need to do. If your using 4 - 120v duplex receptacles, feed 2 of them with the black wire and feed the other 2 with the red wire. Try to make sure that you evenly distribute the loads between all 4 receptacles. If receptacles 1&2 are seeing 6A, then try to get receptacles 3&4 to utilize 6A. Switch an appliance from receptacle one over to receptacle 3 if it makes the load more balanced....

I hope you guys are following me with that. Because what your actually doing is using a MWBC (Multi Wire Branch Circuit). I've discussed these in fairly great detail earlier in this thread quite a few times. It's IMPERATIVE that you wirenut the hell out of all your neutrals and don't daisy chain them.

I've already been over this a slew of times so I'll stop right there. Just want to make sure you guys know what your doing and thus, do it safely.

 

[bobdobalina420]

Yea.... That's always a possibility but seeing as how I grow, I need to stay under the radar. Just posting on here as much as I do isn't really the smartest of things to be doing. Especially since Skip refuses to address my concerns with icmag's shoddy SSL support. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=140956

I do this for the same reason I only charge 150 an ounce for Nirvana's Ice (actually, I feel like that's a little steep).... Karma. I want the PoPo to stay away from me and just leave me the fuck alone. America is turning into a fascist/communist country and any government that throws peace loving hippies into the same cell with a child molester has some serious issues. I don't support the crack heads or dope junkies in my community by selling pot. I sell to crunchy hippies and older 50+ baby boomer ex-hippies. In fact I should invest in some Hostess stock options because my local grocery store can hardly ever can keep the twinkies and hostess cupcakes in stock...

Anyway... I don't mind helping you guys out. Just be safe and don't get greedy. Keep it clean and treat your customers good and it all comes around.

You know what.... I'd probably advocate the use of the homemade timer box just as I described above in your situation. It sounds perfect for what you need to do.

The only thing you guys need to keep in mind when running both 240 and 120 loads on a whatever/3 cable, is that you MUST keep the 120v loads balanced between the red and black wires.

If you've read this thread, then you know that the neutral "carries the imbalance of the load". Always remember that. The neutral is not fused so we don't want to overload it.

O.k... Say you want 4 individual 120v receptacles on that same 30A run that powers your 240v lights. There is no balancing to do with a 240v load. It does it automatically. What the black wire see's the red wire see's....

So when your adding some 120v loads into the mix, this is what you need to do. If your using 4 - 120v duplex receptacles, feed 2 of them with the black wire and feed the other 2 with the red wire. Try to make sure that you evenly distribute the loads between all 4 receptacles. If receptacles 1&2 are seeing 6A, then try to get receptacles 2&4 to utilize 6A. Switch an appliance from receptacle one over to receptacle 3 if it makes the load more balanced....

I hope you guys are following me with that. Because what your actually doing is using a MWBC (Multi Wire Branch Circuit). I've discussed these in fairly great detail earlier in this thread quite a few times. It's IMPERATIVE that you wirenut the hell out of all your neutrals and don't daisy chain them.

I've already been over this a slew of times so I'll stop right there. Just want to make sure you guys know what your doing and thus, do it safely.

Roger that Madpenguin! Thank you again for the quick responses and the FYI on the SSL etc...

 

[clstclandestine]

Anyway... I don't mind helping you guys out. Just be safe and don't get greedy. Keep it clean and treat your customers good and it all comes around.


You are definitely helping! Thanks for the help with my layout. I've been busy prepping my space and plan on pulling wires whenever the neighbors aren't around and I can make some noise.

I'll pull one 1 15A 110 and 1 20A 110 and old work it as you had suggested. I just needed some guidance so I knew I would'nt burn the bitch down!

Once I know my equipment configuration I will rig up a few of those nasty looking Frankenstien cords.

A couple quick ones.... I'm going to run Co2 and have been thinking about controllers. When I see wiring diagrams they have them ran piggy back off of a surge protector. Green air ct-dh-3p 15A as an example. Could you give me an explanation as to why and why not one would use a surge protector?

Went to wire a power cord on a Fantech HP2133 with a standard 16G 13A plug expecting the wiring t be similar to a vortex but I was wrong. There is'nt a location to terminate the ground? Does it use an ungrounded power cord?

WAAy too many supply trips! I may have a few more when it comes times snaking those wires but I used to frame back in the day so I should be good.

Thanks again! Without the guidance who knows what kind of mess I may have come up with!