Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[madpenguin]

so i will not have 100a running to my 100a indoor sub-panel or will i?

No, you will not. Only if you use a 100A double pole breaker back in your main panel will you have 100A. But if you put a 100A breaker on #6 wire, then I wish you all the luck in the world. Please see below. I'm starting to feel like a broken record.

If you wanted the full 100A for that MBP in your grow, then you needed to use #2 copper or 1/0 aluminum fed by a 100A double pole breaker in the main panel.

so i need to go buy new wire again that sucks copper is high?

If you want a full 100A, then yes. You need to get 1/0 AL SER and feed it with a 100A DP breaker in your main.

and then will i still need the 60a dp or can i double tap it?

If you go buy 1/0 AL SER, then no, you don't have to use the 60A DP breaker unless you want to limit yourself to 60A but if that was the case, then why go out and buy 1/0 cable thats rated for 100A?

And no, never double tap anything as a general rule. Some stuff is made to be safe when double tapped, such as a QO breaker. Very few lugs are rated for 2 wires. One of those wires won't make good contact and then you've got a hot spot because of increased resistance.

Always feed subpanels with a double pole breaker back in the main panel. I did an extensive tutorial about this on pages 3 and 5 I believe. Dude, please read before you start wasting your time (and mine).... Not trying to be a dick, I'm really not, but I've repeated the same stuff 3 times over the last page. Not only that, the main information has already been gone over in this thread. Take the time to read it and you might learn a thing or two.

 

[burnedout]

.

 

[burnedout]

Since my last post got deleted, let me preface my question with a sincere thank you MadPenguin. Not only for the gold mine of information you have so graciously provided us, but also for the steadfastness you have shown in answering so many questions and repeat questions even from those who haven't taken the time to read the thread. Mad respect. Most people in your position would have never made it this far. I wouldn't be surprised if the advice you have given has potentially saved a life, if not several. My question(s)...

I have a 200 amp main service. The panel is full, but hardly anything in the house is electric, so I should have plenty of power available. There are (2) 40 amp DP breakers installed and neither is currently being used. One is wired with 8-2 and terminates in a junction box, and the other (which should be a 30) with 10-2 and runs to a 30 amp outlet.

What I'd like to do is reroute both wires into a closet of two adjoining bedrooms. However, I'm not sure exactly what my best course of action should be, as I'd really like to be able to run 120v accessories off of at least one circuit. I believe I'll need to rewire that circuit with X-3 wire and install a sub panel for that to be possible, correct?

So, assuming I need to rewire that circuit, I figure I might as well upgrade and go with a 60 amp breaker and 6-3 (SER?) wire. Which would feed a sub panel and from there my separate branch circuits, correct? Sounds fairly easy enough.

With the other 40 amp 8-2, if I wanted to run 5 1kw lights I could basically just hard wire it into a light controller I assume, but what If I wanted to be able to use the remaining 10 or so amps for other 240v accessories? Would I need to install another sub panel for that as well? Can that be done with 8-2 wire? If so, is there any way for me to get around having two separate sub panels?

THANK YOU!!

 

[madpenguin]

burnedout, I'm trying to get to you but everytime I log in I'm bombarded by PM's that I feel I have to answer.

I'm also answering some pertinent stuff on these PM's that other people could benefit from by reading it here.

I'd like to ask that people try and post here instead of using private messages...... If not, I'm going to setup a paypal account and start charging $20 support request fees for each PM I reply to....

 

[burnedout]

Take your time, I won't be burning down the house in the meantime.

 

[jyme]

thanks for your time madpenguin.ive soaked up every thing you beat in to my thick skull.im going to buy 2/0 wire and do it your way and chop my other wire the great people of lowes told me would work as a $209 loss thanks for your time once again.

 

[madpenguin]

Never listen to anyone at Lowes. They don't even stock SER cable and keep telling people to use SEU cable to feed a subpanel.

Don't get #2 copper as that will be expensive. Go to your local electric supply house and buy 1/0 (one aught) Aluminum SER cable. Buy a 100A double pole breaker to use in your main panel. Use the anti-oxidant compound on the AL wire as I've mentioned in this thread (the tutorial about a sub panel).

That is ofcourse if you need a full 100A. If your fine with 60A, then use your current wire. Just get that cable on a 60A DP breaker and don't double tap your main panel lugs like that.

 

[madpenguin]

"Safe" extension cords

"Safe" extension cords

Just thought I'd throw up a few pics really quick. For those of you who like to use extension cords and powerstrips, you should really stop doing that. Just a matter of time till something shorts out and starts to smoke.

I just recently made an extension cord because I didn't want to fish a new circuit I ran underneath the finished attic floorboards and up into the opposite wall where my veg area is. So.... I made an extension cord as safe as I could make it.

That's a "Yellow jacket" 12/3 "heavy duty" extension cord from lowes that is only rated to carry 15A

I crimped the incoming stranded ground to a green sheathed #12 solid ground and terminated it to a small ground bar attached to the inside of the box. All other conductors are the correct color and are #12 AWG solid, not stranded... I used all spec grade 20A receptacles and grounded everything. Receptacles and the inside of each box.

Here is an ammeter reading, which BTW, is wrong. Should be 6A for all the stuff that's running on it.

Anyway Guys.... Don't fuck around with straight up extension cords and powerstrips. Please make something like this. I won't lie to you. It cost me upwards to 60 bucks but who cares? I sell a half oz of Nirvana's Ice for $75.... A half oz out of my 2lb harvest so I can be safe.

I'm not going to skimp on materials and neither should you guys. Actually $15 of that went towards a crimper tool. Bought some other misc crap too. Just material wise to make the above was probably 40-45. Maybe 50 tops.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

I just want to tell you, that a bunch of tips from you and getting a book based on the NEC, I am so much more confidant that I can do this to code and also to the benifit and safety of my grow and my home.

Thanks also for answering my PM's. I've writtin and rewritten and now and making an actual wiring blueprint.

I have full confidence that I'll be able to do this without further imput. Will show you the final result.

Best tip you gave me.... read the thread. I read it once then starting asking questions I dfound that I needed to go back and read things that became important once a question was answered.

I might be helpful to make a sticky wiki with all the conclusions or mini tutorials that would be the very first post and have all the updated info there and the discussion after

 

[Max44]

good post

 

[madpenguin]

OK... I'm sorry it took me so long to get to you. I really am.

I have a 200 amp main service. The panel is full, but hardly anything in the house is electric, so I should have plenty of power available. There are (2) 40 amp DP breakers installed and neither is currently being used. One is wired with 8-2 and terminates in a junction box, and the other (which should be a 30) with 10-2 and runs to a 30 amp outlet.

What I'd like to do is reroute both wires into a closet of two adjoining bedrooms. However, I'm not sure exactly what my best course of action should be, as I'd really like to be able to run 120v accessories off of at least one circuit. I believe I'll need to rewire that circuit with X-3 wire and install a sub panel for that to be possible, correct?

No... 240v runs off whatever/2 and so does 120v. It's only when you want to run both 120 and 240 from the same branch circuit is when you need whatever/3.... So.... Seeing as how you have 2 separate whatever/2 runs, make one 240v only and then make the other 120v only.

I'd have the 8/2 on a 40A DP breaker to supply all your 240v loads only. Then I'd yank the other 40A breaker that is on the 10/2 wire and go buy a 30A single pole breaker for it. Actually, if all you need is 16A or less for your 120v loads, then I would put that 10/2 on a 20A single pole breaker. It'll be up to code and safer than using a 30A breaker (you can't use 20A rated receptacles on a 30A breaker).

So, assuming I need to rewire that circuit, I figure I might as well upgrade and go with a 60 amp breaker and 6-3 (SER?) wire. Which would feed a sub panel and from there my separate branch circuits, correct? Sounds fairly easy enough.

If that's what you wanted to do, then yea. That's a good game plan and correct with the wire gauges and breakers.

With the other 40 amp 8-2, if I wanted to run 5 1kw lights I could basically just hard wire it into a light controller I assume, but what If I wanted to be able to use the remaining 10 or so amps for other 240v accessories? Would I need to install another sub panel for that as well? Can that be done with 8-2 wire? If so, is there any way for me to get around having two separate sub panels?

THANK YOU!!

Were you wanting to have a 60A subpanel plus that existing 40A run to use for your lights? I'm going to say no. That's alot of equipment if you need that much power. Must be a giant closet if so.

So.... This is probably what I would do. If both of those existing runs will reach into the closet where you want them, I would do so. If the cable is in good shape (and copper), then why go out and buy 6/3 for a sub panel when you can save money and use the existing wire?

I'd probably order a WH40 online. I was just at Lowes and they have a T104R I think it was called. The clock motor ran off 240v, which is what you would want. Don't know off hand what voltage the clock motor on a WH40 runs at. If you want to use the existing 40A run for all 240v stuff, you'll need to make sure any controller you get doesn't require a neutral (120v).

So.... On a 40A run, 32A is the safe limit for continuous loads. Your lights will be somewhere around 21A. So, yea.... That would leave you with right around 10A at 240v left over on that circuit for accessories....

What you would do, is bring the 8/2 with ground directly into the T104. Grab some blue big wirenuts. I noticed the punchouts on the timer kinda suck as far as trying to get a handy box attached to the side. The handy box is either going to hit your hinges or the locking latch depending on what side you try to use.

You just need to go to Lowes and spend a good hour or 2 opening up boxes and forming a game plan in your head before you start.

Anyway... Take the 8/2 into the 240v only water heater timer and snip it. I would buy a crimper and some heavy duty insulated fork connectors. Ones that are made for #8 AWG stranded and preferably the connectors are copper, brass or AgCdO (sliver cadmium oxide).

Take 2 short pieces of #8 stranded to use for pigtails and terminate the fork connectors to one end. have the other end wire nut to the incoming #8 feeder along with a #10 solid copper. The #10 will be ran thru a punch out and into a handy box affixed to the side of the timer enclosure. Use a spec grade 20A 240v duplex receptacle in the handy box that is attached to the timer enclosure. This will accommodate your remaining 10A of accessories.

So, you'll have two #8 stranded and a #10 solid wire nutted together as soon as the feed enters the timer. Then you'll have another two #8 stranded and a #10 solid as well. With me? L1 and L2 both are 120v. You'll need to wire nut all your grounds together as well. Should also be a little green screw to attach a ground pigtail to in the enclosure.

Put the 2 fork connectors on your line terminals and then you should atleast use #10 going out to the receptacles that feed your ballasts.

I'm going to stop right there. I seem to be having a rough time explaining. I was actually at Lowes earlier and I was going to buy all the shit and do a mock make up with pictures and then return all the shit later.

I still might. Please ask any questions that you may not understand. I'll try to clarify things.

Your setup really pretty having both those circuits. You might as well take advantage of them.

 

[burnedout]

OK... I'm sorry it took me so long to get to you. I really am.

No problem at all. You're a busy man around here and any help you give to me is EXTREMELY appreciated, I don't mind waiting.

No... 240v runs off whatever/2 and so does 120v. It's only when you want to run both 120 and 240 from the same branch circuit is when you need whatever/3.... So.... Seeing as how you have 2 separate whatever/2 runs, make one 240v only and then make the other 120v only.

I'd have the 8/2 on a 40A DP breaker to supply all your 240v loads only. Then I'd yank the other 40A breaker that is on the 10/2 wire and go buy a 30A single pole breaker for it. Actually, if all you need is 16A or less for your 120v loads, then I would put that 10/2 on a 20A single pole breaker. It'll be up to code and safer than using a 30A breaker (you can't use 20A rated receptacles on a 30A breaker).


If that's what you wanted to do, then yea. That's a good game plan and correct with the wire gauges and breakers.

Were you wanting to have a 60A subpanel plus that existing 40A run to use for your lights? I'm going to say no. That's alot of equipment if you need that much power. Must be a giant closet if so.

I should of made that a little more clear. I do want to run 240 and 120 both off of one of the circuits. I will be using both adjoining bedroom 5-7k each, the closet will only be used to locate the electrical components.

So I was wanting to use the existing 40 amp 8/2 for 240v loads( mainly my lights but if I had a few amps to spare it would be nice to be able to use them for an ac or dehum or whatever). Then use the other run for BOTH 240v and 120v loads (ac's, fans, pumps, dehum's etc.)

Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

 

[madpenguin]

I should of made that a little more clear. I do want to run 240 and 120 both off of one of the circuits.

Then yes, you need to abandon that 10/2 run and use whatever/3 to feed a subpanel.

I will be using both adjoining bedroom 5-7k each, the closet will only be used to locate the electrical components.

Hmm... Sounds like your going to start a pretty decent sized op. I thought you were only going to run 5 1kw lights total but your saying 5 1kw'ers in each bedroom? That 40A existing run will only handle one room worth of lights plus an extra 10A of misc 240v equipment. If you need to use any 120v equipment in that room, it'll have to come from the new subpanel you run. Then the entire other room will have to be fed from the new subpanel.

Make sure you don't keep anything combustible in that closet if your going to be using it as an electrical utility closet.

So I was wanting to use the existing 40 amp 8/2 for 240v loads( mainly my lights but if I had a few amps to spare it would be nice to be able to use them for an ac or dehum or whatever). Then use the other run for BOTH 240v and 120v loads (ac's, fans, pumps, dehum's etc.)

Sure. Your going to need to ditch that 10/2 run and run atleast a 6/3 with ground to say.... A 125 MLO panel. Depends on how many spaces you need. There is a 125A siemens MLO 4/8 space panel at Lowes for $15 bucks. It'll take 2 double poles, 4 single poles or 4 tandems (which would give you 8 circuits but only 120v).

That same panel could have a DP 40A feeding yet another T104R for the other 5kw worth of lights and you would still have 2 SP circuits left for 120v....

Let me know if anything still isn't clear. As far as feeding the T104R's.... Look back quite a few pages. I sang praise to someone for grasping how to run a multiwire branch circuit into a similar timer. He had some timed receptacles and some always hot receptacles. That is the same kind of setup I'm trying to tell you know as far as how to wire up the intermatic 40A timers. Go back and find that post and I explained in great detail how to split off from the incoming feed so some shit will be timed and other shit won't, but you basically use the intermatic timer as a junction box for your always hot feeds.

 

[burnedout]

Ok, so ditch the 10/2, replace it with 6/3 SER to a sub panel with enough breaker slots and run my branch circuits.

With the 8/2 40 amp, I believe I understand how to wire that with the T104R which will give me both timed and untimed outlets, thanks to your earlier post.

What if I was planning to build a light controller instead of using the manual timer? Would the basic concept still be the same? I was just going to build the same DIY controller you linked in earlier except use 2 relays instead of 1. If that's a bad idea I could just go the Intermatic timer idea I guess. (btw, I'm planning to build a flip so both room's lighting can run off that one 40 amp circuit)

 

[madpenguin]

Ok, so ditch the 10/2, replace it with 6/3 SER to a sub panel with enough breaker slots and run my branch circuits.

With the 8/2 40 amp, I believe I understand how to wire that with the T104R which will give me both timed and untimed outlets, thanks to your earlier post.

What if I was planning to build a light controller instead of using the manual timer? Would the basic concept still be the same? I was just going to build the same DIY controller you linked in earlier except use 2 relays instead of 1. If that's a bad idea I could just go the Intermatic timer idea I guess. (btw, I'm planning to build a flip so both room's lighting can run off that one 40 amp circuit)

If your going to flip/flop, then do you really need a whole nother 60A? You could use that 10/2 as a 120v feed...... I suppose your going to need some serious dehumidifier and AC action in both rooms so that 30A run probably wouldn't cut it.

The flip is a good idea. Were you thinking of one relay for each room? Wired in parallel as it were? I just woke up and need to get some coffee. Let me clear my head.

 

[burnedout]

Probably don't need the whole 60 amps, but I believe I will need to run both 120v and 240v off that circuit which means I would need to change the wire anyway. I could probably get by with another 40 amps or so, but if I'm going to run the wire and I have room in the main I figure I might as well go ahead with the 60. That and since I'm gonna need AC, dehumidifiers, fans, and pumps for both rooms, 48 amps probably won't be much overkill, especially if I don't have any to spare from the current 40 amp 8-2 my lights will be on.

As far as the relay, to be honest that's where I'm not sure. I figured I'd hardwire the 8-2 into a DIY light controller, just like the one you linked (although I believe for more than 4 lights I'll need to run 2 relays?) then into a 6 or 8 relay flip ala Kung POW's tutorial. I'm pretty sure the 60 amp 6-3 line part I have down, its this lighting circuit and how exactly the best way to run that would be that's tripping me up a bit.

I know I could build one of those DIY light controllers as the thread details no problem, it's upsizing that for twice as many ballasts AND splitting the incoming line to incorporate untimed outlets that's giving me trouble. If that's even possible, which I assume it is.

 

[burnedout]

So after speaking with another member, I was told regarding the DIY light controller I could just use a 40 amp dpst relay instead of having to use two 25's. So that means I can hardwire my 8-2 into that relay/light controller, and from there wire my 6 ballasts into a flip box/s.

So assuming that's not only correct but also my best game plan, I guess my only question left would be is there any way to run that 8-2 line into my relay/light controller and still use whatever left over amps I have for other 240v accessories? Would I basically do it the same way as I would if using the T104 you described earlier?

 

[madpenguin]

The tutorial from Kung Pow is a good one but he made one fatal mistake. He got high when he made it. He also got high when he posted the tutorial.

Looks like he is using DPDT 30A relays from NTE Electronics.

http://www.nteinc.com/relay_web/pdf/R04.pdf

D5 case R04-11A30-240

http://store.acradiosupplyinc.com/nter04-11a30-240.aspx

I would wire it differently. I'd take a 50A range cord directly into the enclosure that has 5 relays. Without a neutral on that 40A run, you would have to find 2 - 240v timers to trigger the contacts.

I guess I'd make a hybrid of the light controller and kung pows flip. Would be nice to have a neutral in that setup. Could use 120v timers for the coils and also install 2 small 120v fans. One blowing in and the other blowing out.

You can also get relays from here:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5X847

Use the search box or just flip through each "relay" page...

Depending on which relay you wanted. I just ordered one of each. I'll brainstorm my own flip and post a tutorial. I'm pretty good with photoshop so one relay should do me...

 

[jyme]

ok madpenguin, its 1/0 ser and guess what i wont have to buy it.my house has a over load surge the other day burnt up all my electronice that were pluged in.one leg went high/one leg went low. the main 200amp panel was coaroded and so was the meterbase they said water got in it and caused it the power co, cut there nutral and mine and cramped them together so we could have electricty till i could get an electitian out to fix it. so we are repacing all the old wire with copper and the 1/0 ser will be used as my shed feed now! the insurance comp. is paying for it all.

 

[madpenguin]

Wow. That sucks but I suppose works out in the end. Insurance company paying for it = Electrician charging a fuck load. That's going to be a big job anyway. If all your house wiring is getting replaced then your looking at 5 digits easy.

Or maybe "old wire" means the service entrance. Either way, it many thousands. I sure could use a job like that right about now.....