Growing in Coco 10 years. Lost my way

[dansbuds]

yup im gonna do the same for the next run.. ive never used wet and dry cycle per say.. but id let the coco get to the point were it very slightly tans on top around the edges of the pot. and the pots are noticeably lighter.


I think the issue is that I don't have enough veg time in the final container. and even though the roots are very well developed, they are not developed enough to cope with multiple feeds. im sure if I could veg them longer under hps and let them get really root bound, id be good to go.


so im guessing that im not gonna be able to multifeed unless I increase veg time.
ive tried to research nitrogen toxicity being caused by overwatering. so found not found anything. but im guessing the excess water is causing a lockout or something which is causing the symptoms of n toxicity.


next run im going to run the left rows on one nute schedule and the right row on something different. both with ro.. and see how that finishes up. I will post up pics at some point.
either way, if it was the water, ive switched to ro anyway so that at least crosses that off the list of unknowns..

How much up potting do you do from clone to veg stage ? i now go from rooted clone into a solo cup for 1 week to build roots & then right into my 3 gallon pot in veg & it saves me at least 2 weeks veg time & the pots are very well rooted by the time my 4 week veg is over .
7/23

8/19

just under 4 weeks of veg & they're more than ready for flower !

2 days into flower on 8/23

 

[Absolem]

Hey Siftedunity. I like the track your on in your latest post.

yup im gonna do the same for the next run.. ive never used wet and dry cycle per say.. but id let the coco get to the point were it very slightly tans on top around the edges of the pot. and the pots are noticeably lighter.

The terminology used our industry has no unity or standard like it does in the horticultural industry. The terms "wet" and "dry" have vast differences in meaning for people. If we talk in terms of moisture content as a percentage in coco coir it might help us get on the same page.

Lets use a 2 gallon container full of fresh coco coir as an example. If we water that container with a nutrient solution and allow for runoff the coco is now at full saturation. It takes about 1800-2000 ml of nutrient solution to get some runoff from a two gallon container.

At this point the media is fully saturated. Plants in coco coir will start to wilt when the moisture content is below 30%. So when should we water next? What does Canna say? I think their bag contains a lot of information that is helpful so lets have a look.

Under "Water usage Manually" the first sentence says you should water daily. Why? Daily watering will bring fresh air to the roots and it will reset the cation exchange keeping the buffer at the right nutrient profile. According to Canna you should water when the container is around 50% moisture content. I think this is a good rule to follow when watering coir. Play around. Take a container and water it to full saturation measuring exactly how many ml of water it took to get some runoff. Then do the same thing to another container but use only half the water. Pick them up feel the difference and get a good idea of what your container weighs when it's around 50% moisture content.

I think the issue is that I don't have enough veg time in the final container. and even though the roots are very well developed, they are not developed enough to cope with multiple feeds. im sure if I could veg them longer under hps and let them get really root bound, id be good to go. so im guessing that im not gonna be able to multifeed unless I increase veg time.

This is your answer to a lot of whats going on. Let's look again at the Canna pic above. Under "Water usage" the second sentence states....."Adjust container size if containers dry down to slow or if impossible to apply manually daily".

People get way to stuck on the size of a container without any thought about the roots of a plant being able to fill the container they are using. I use 2 or 3 gallon containers for my plants. Some plants just develop quicker than others. Same for roots. Find the container size you need to get a good root ball that can handle daily multi feeds. When transplanting have different size containers on hand so plants with smaller root structures get a smaller container.
I use halo drip rings and each drip ring has a ball valve to regulate water to the plant. If some of my plants have a weaker root system and drink less the water is turned down to compensate for that. The container size used should be based on the plant being able to fill the container with roots to allow for multi feeds. If you can't multi feed get a smaller container so you can. Multi feeds will drown plants with weak root systems. People compensate for this by letting the coco dry out. It works but you are not getting the full benefits from the coco coir.



Below is more good info on coco coir from Canna. Canna coco comes out of the bag with a EC of .6. THIS IS GOOD. The coco coir has been buffered. Coco coir that hasn't been buffered contains high amounts of NaCl and K. The buffering process removes the NaCl and good amount of K and replaces them in the cation exchange with Ca and Mg. This gives coco coir the right amount of Ca, K, and Mg. If they didn't do this your plants would suffer from what looks like overfeeding. People who constantly measure their runoff and have no clue what the cation exchange is in coir or how it works will chase their tails grow after grow. If you fill the cation exchange in coco coir with the incorrect amounts of Ca, Mg, and K then your plants will suffer from what looks like to high of an EC. Coco coir has a high CEC exchange and people should quit treating it like it is inert.

 

[azad]

Hey buddy. imo a pot is like a lung in a person. It has to be fully inflated and deflated for rich blood oxygen mixture.similar the pot has to be super charged full of roots for for rich cec to occour and increase nutrient demands and uptake.

 

[siftedunity]

How much up potting do you do from clone to veg stage ? i now go from rooted clone into a solo cup for 1 week to build roots & then right into my 3 gallon pot in veg & it saves me at least 2 weeks veg time & the pots are very well rooted by the time my 4 week veg is over .
7/23
View Image
8/19

View Image


just under 4 weeks of veg & they're more than ready for flower !

2 days into flower on 8/23

View Image

Ok.. This run I went from clone into cups. These were getting feed daily and roots were good. Then into 6ltr, so 1.5gal and vegged for about ten days under hps and flipped. And while they were vegging under hps I was trying to let them dry out slightly
In between. The roots looked good to me. If I bend the square pots and look down, all I see is roots.. Then flipped and tried watering to slight run off. Once about 2 hrs after the lights come on then again about 6hrs later. That was around 700ml or 0.7ltrs feed per plant. Kept checking the roots and they were still getting thicker so presumed I was good.

 

[siftedunity]

Hey Siftedunity. I like the track your on in your latest post.





The terminology used our industry has no unity or standard like it does in the horticultural industry. The terms "wet" and "dry" have vast differences in meaning for people. If we talk in terms of moisture content as a percentage in coco coir it might help us get on the same page.

Lets use a 2 gallon container full of fresh coco coir as an example. If we water that container with a nutrient solution and allow for runoff the coco is now at full saturation. It takes about 1800-2000 ml of nutrient solution to get some runoff from a two gallon container.

At this point the media is fully saturated. Plants in coco coir will start to wilt when the moisture content is below 30%. So when should we water next? What does Canna say? I think their bag contains a lot of information that is helpful so lets have a look.

View Image

Under "Water usage Manually" the first sentence says you should water daily. Why? Daily watering will bring fresh air to the roots and it will reset the cation exchange keeping the buffer at the right nutrient profile. According to Canna you should water when the container is around 50% moisture content. I think this is a good rule to follow when watering coir. Play around. Take a container and water it to full saturation measuring exactly how many ml of water it took to get some runoff. Then do the same thing to another container but use only half the water. Pick them up feel the difference and get a good idea of what your container weighs when it's around 50% moisture content.



This is your answer to a lot of whats going on. Let's look again at the Canna pic above. Under "Water usage" the second sentence states....."Adjust container size if containers dry down to slow or if impossible to apply manually daily".

People get way to stuck on the size of a container without any thought about the roots of a plant being able to fill the container they are using. I use 2 or 3 gallon containers for my plants. Some plants just develop quicker than others. Same for roots. Find the container size you need to get a good root ball that can handle daily multi feeds. When transplanting have different size containers on hand so plants with smaller root structures get a smaller container.
I use halo drip rings and each drip ring has a ball valve to regulate water to the plant. If some of my plants have a weaker root system and drink less the water is turned down to compensate for that. The container size used should be based on the plant being able to fill the container with roots to allow for multi feeds. If you can't multi feed get a smaller container so you can. Multi feeds will drown plants with weak root systems. People compensate for this by letting the coco dry out. It works but you are not getting the full benefits from the coco coir.



Below is more good info on coco coir from Canna. Canna coco comes out of the bag with a EC of .6. THIS IS GOOD. The coco coir has been buffered. Coco coir that hasn't been buffered contains high amounts of NaCl and K. The buffering process removes the NaCl and good amount of K and replaces them in the cation exchange with Ca and Mg. This gives coco coir the right amount of Ca, K, and Mg. If they didn't do this your plants would suffer from what looks like overfeeding. People who constantly measure their runoff and have no clue what the cation exchange is in coir or how it works will chase their tails grow after grow. If you fill the cation exchange in coco coir with the incorrect amounts of Ca, Mg, and K then your plants will suffer from what looks like to high of an EC. Coco coir has a high CEC exchange and people should quit treating it like it is inert.

View Image

Kinda feel foolish now since I've not looked on the back of a bag of canna for a long time!
I did used to mess around with containers and water. I was testing by pouring in water until I got 20% runoff and then digging the coco out of the pot. I found that the bottom third of the pot was generally heavily saturated with water. Like literally sitting I the pot. And then decided not to bother with runoff. At the time it seemed stupid to me to water with runoff after physically seeing that most of the water would sit in the bottom of the pot. So i just fed daily sometimes twice daily and didn't feed till run off. So say for example runoff would need 1.5 litres, I'd be feeding about 1 litre. This is with 10ltr pots or between 9-11ltrs . that was when things worked well. I must admit the issues do correspond with trying to keep the medium moist.

Man do you have any good links to into about cec exchange in coco. I know the basic concept but the more I can understand, the better. Will be reading up tonight anyways but any extra info is appreciated

 

[dansbuds]

Ok.. This run I went from clone into cups. These were getting feed daily and roots were good. Then into 6ltr, so 1.5gal and vegged for about ten days under hps and flipped. And while they were vegging under hps I was trying to let them dry out slightly
In between. The roots looked good to me. If I bend the square pots and look down, all I see is roots.. Then flipped and tried watering to slight run off. Once about 2 hrs after the lights come on then again about 6hrs later. That was around 700ml or 0.7ltrs feed per plant. Kept checking the roots and they were still getting thicker so presumed I was good.

10 days should have been good enough to build a decent root system ..... i just like to veg longer , for both better root build up & bigger plants going into flower .
but no .... you should have been fine with that root mass .
still thinking its your water & i'll bet you see a difference with the RO .

 

[Absolem]

https://www.extension.uidaho.edu/nursery/Landscape problems/Substrate/CEC and CN ratio.PDF

This is an excerpt from the link.

"Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) of Potting Mixes
Cation Exchange Capacity is a measure of a medium’s or soil’s ability to regulate the supply
of cations to the plant. Cations are positively charged ions of minerals. Examples of cations
include potassium (K+
), calcium (Ca2+), iron (Fe2+), and others. The higher the CEC, the better
the medium’s ability to hold added cations, which ultimately improves the potential for plant
growth. To measure CEC, cations must be chemically extracted from the substrate. One of
several solutions can be used to extract cations. "

 

[Midwest Toker]

Same here, My progresion from rooted cuttings in the 3 ounce dixies to the 5" square pots for 10 days then into the 9 liter for another 10 days. single daily feeds.

 

[dansbuds]

skip that 5" square pot transplant & go right into the 9liter & you'll save some veg time . or keep the same veg time & have bigger plants for flower ....
it saves me 2 weeks of veg time in my system .
less transplant shock & more time to build roots in the 9 .

 

[Midwest Toker]

Hard to cram 12 9lt. pots under a 250 watt MH for early veg.

 

[dansbuds]

Hard to cram 12 9lt. pots under a 250 watt MH for early veg.

i hear ya

i've got 2 315CMH over 4 x 4 trays ..... plenty of room !

but before i moved it all in this spot , i had 12 under 1 315CMH .... was a little crowded , but i managed .....
had my moms in the other tray under the other 315 .

 

[Midwest Toker]

I'm not really into it for the money anymore, between the 50K a year from my hobby and my retirement income I have more than enough to live comfortably.

 

[siftedunity]

I think the more reliant on the money you become, the more stressful it is lol tbh even if the money wasn't worth it, id still love it.
even the problems make things interesting and keep you on your toes and constantly learning which is good.

 

[bilko]

-

 

[willyweed]

I think the more reliant on the money you become, the more stressful it is lol tbh even if the money wasn't worth it, id still love it.
even the problems make things interesting and keep you on your toes and constantly learning which is good.

Hey pal ,i feel your pain ,after reading the whole thread . I remember i had terrible problems switching back to smaller pots ,i was not in coco but the cubes ,as soon as i switched back to the big pots the prob's went all by themselves , i guess we just get stuck in our ways or systems . hope you get it going good a.s.a.p
sending good vibes your way
atb.ww

 

[Plus1]

I'm really interested to hear how your RO effected things... I'm going through the same thing myself. grown for 13 years and now the system doesn't work and there's a clear deficiency. But im convinced my issue is a magnesium deficiency. Do you have pics of your nutrient issue?

My water supply is from a well though, and it's only 30 ppm. So i'm not sure how switching to RO may help, but stripping everything off may be the only way to get down to brass tax. My yields went way down as well, and my flavor and smell have suffered.

 

[Midwest Toker]

I'm really interested to hear how your RO effected things... I'm going through the same thing myself. grown for 13 years and now the system doesn't work and there's a clear deficiency. But im convinced my issue is a magnesium deficiency. Do you have pics of your nutrient issue?

My water supply is from a well though, and it's only 30 ppm. So i'm not sure how switching to RO may help, but stripping everything off may be the only way to get down to brass tax. My yields went way down as well, and my flavor and smell have suffered.

I'd have the water tested to see what is actually in it's make-up and adjust nutrient formula too it. Hell, I'd be happy not to use my RO but at 400 ppm it's a must.

 

[Plus1]

I'd have the water tested to see what is actually in it's make-up and adjust nutrient formula too it. Hell, I'd be happy not to use my RO but at 400 ppm it's a must.

I had my water tested. It didn't show me anything that I thought was concerning, or stood out... but anyones input on my results is appreciated. (Im living in groundhogs day of magnesium deficiency)

**pic attached

 

[Midwest Toker]

I had my water tested. It didn't show me anything that I thought was concerning, or stood out... but anyones input on my results is appreciated. (Im living in groundhogs day of magnesium deficiency)

**pic attached

Yes, I don't see anything in the water make-up that throws a red flag.
Have you had any problems with bug recently since the problem started ? Insects are the number one problem as far as I found with the transmission of plant borne illnesses.

 

[Plus1]

Yes, I don't see anything in the water make-up that throws a red flag.
Have you had any problems with bug recently since the problem started ? Insects are the number one problem as far as I found with the transmission of plant borne illnesses.

I was concerned I had russet mites or broad mites because people i was close with had them, and the extreme magnesium deficiency I was in I think mimic'd broad mite bottom leaf loss. But got a 1000x microscope. didn't find anything. but still sprayed and shutdown for 9 months.

root aphids? No. I've checked a 1000x. Ive never see anything running around my roots. They are generally white and enjoying life, no bugs. I regularly spray to avoid any other regular nuisance pests. There was a point when I was using PBP that root zones were getting red spots, and I thought if I changed that it'd fix the mag def. But changed nutes, fixed my roots, they are white, and I still see the mag issues.

I did have my water contaminated with coliform 2 years ago, which I believe got trapped in my filter and then contaminated my plants. But that was corrected and have been using clean water for years and it still hasn't fixed the mag issues. I am stumped. ...i use epsom salt in my mix now and you can see they are happier with the epsom. so it's gotta be in the world of mag issues.