Google taking a step into power metering

[indicapimp]

While I see the obvious drawbacks of this type of thing I see a few positives as well. I'm just curious what all the people that are against this would do to help improve the efficiency of the grid?

Well that is an interesting question, and made me pause at your response...But I think you miss the point here;giving up personal freedom in the cloak and mask of efficiency is a very large leap. You can improve the grid in a much more central and regional pattern than wanting to identify what individuals are running in their homes in terms of consumption. It's not like the power companies are a non profit. They are providing a limited commodity called electricity so it is up to the company to improve efficiency and supply to "IMPROVE OUR GRID", not press there thumb down on the necks of the consumer...

 

[Muleskinner]

This is of course bad news but it is not something we can't overcome.

It's really not much different than the current state of affairs. all LEO has to do is call the power company to get your usage.

It seems like this could be defeated by simply staggering the on-off times of multiple lamps. All they'll see is higher than normal power use.

With all the track lighting and indirect lighting nowadays high power usage isn't abnormal in itself.

I promise you though that the govt. is watching Google and others and waiting. They always wait for the technology to spread before using it for snooping and control.

Look at credit cards, emails, and phone. No one ever said the government would eventually get everything in a giant searchable database when they introducted these technologies. Within a few years now the Pigs will be able to look at your hourly power history with a simple click of a mouse and no warrant.

 

[hardhat22]

Maybe that shit happens in communist china but where I live leo needs a warrant before he gets to see my electric bill and my utility company isnt in the business to police its customers on how they use their juice.

Thats a good point Verite,but these days I find it hard to trust that cops and utilities will respect our Constitution.I believe Florida was notorious at one time about getting warrants based on energy use patterns.

The Canadian justice system strongly rules against evidence gathering without proper permits;

"The case in question involved growers in Alberta, Canada who were caught by police using a digital ammeter to glean evidence about the amount of electricity within their home. Though the data did indeed identify a 300+ plant operation, the judge dismissed the ammeter as a source of evidence for reasons of invasion of privacy – the police hadn’t obtained the necessary search warrant to use it. Ammeters have apparently proven very successful at highlighting suspect electricity consumption patterns and therefore pinpointing grower operations. Placed on a power box off the property, they don’t involve trespass, but used without the appropriate warrants, the data gathered is deemed a violation of the homeowner’s privacy."
http://www.eetimes.eu/design/219500045

At least one resident of Menlo Park,Ca. stood up for his rights against PG&E when they attempted to install the smart meter.
http://www.almanacnews.com/story.php?story_id=7921

Amsterdam is testing the smart meter.And if you find the link at the bottom of the page you'll find they are also talking of banning cars that pre-date 1992.Classic collectibles included.
http://www.dutchdailynews.com/amsterdam-testing-smart-grid/

And good news for some Ontario folks;
"A victory for tenants. Yesterday, the Ontario Energy Board issued a compliance notice that made it crystal clear that smart meters are not to be installed in rental apartment buildings and this is based on 2005 legislation under section 53.18 of the Electricity Act."
http://members2.boardhost.com/TorontoTenants/msg/1237990249.html
Seems as if the whole world is worried about energy and a growing population.
Peace

 

[Verite]

Thats a good point Verite,but these days I find it hard to trust that cops and utilities will respect our Constitution.I believe Florida was notorious at one time about getting warrants based on energy use patterns.

You dont have to use trust when theres a dozen lawyers lined up waiting for anyone to violate anyone elses constitutional rights so they can get a piece of the lawsuit money. Last time I checked my electricity usage was just as private as my credit card spending and would require a warrant for any law enforcement to look at.

 

[hardhat22]

Last time I checked my electricity usage was just as private as my credit card spending and would require a warrant for any law enforcement to look at.

You are right in some cases.But,it doesn't always work out that way.

Texas. A sherriff may have been given a password to access power company records.He data mines for almost 3 years,finding growers.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:561535

According to the following study, the legality of warrantless searches of utility records,or 3rd party information, varies between states.It's a question of whether or not 3rd party information is protected by the 4th amendment.The supreme court says no. But state constitutions have their own versions of the 4th ammendment. According to the author of this study, the supreme court could change their opinion to protect the 4th amendment if a preponderance of states eventually reject the supreme courts ruling and adhere strictly to the Constitution.

"This study reveals that eleven states reject the federal third-party doctrine and ten others have given some reason to believe they might
reject it."
http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=stephen_henderson

This study also gives details by state.

I expect this new smart grid technology to provide states with ample opportunity to have their 4th amendment analogs tested.I hope it works out to our favor.
Peace

 

[wintermute]

I expect this new smart grid technology to provide states with ample opportunity to have their 4th amendment analogs tested.I hope it works out to our favor.

Here is what concerns me most about the smart grid meters being deployed all over the place. Almost all of them use wireless data transmission to upstream aggregation towers. They support power usage monitoring at 5 minute intervals (even if usually set at 1 hr).

The "security" of these systems is provided by using licensed FCC spectrum. READ: there is no privacy!

FlexNet capable meters (or any similar tech) allows arbitrary people within range to observe your power usage. I expect home invasion thugs to take advantage of this at some point. "Hey, a grow house! they're pulling 3,200kWh/mo with 1000w usage increments on/off daily."

Regardless of how the "expectation of privacy" plays out for AMR/AMI wireless transmissions the ease and availability of tools for monitoring this data on a large scale completely passively anywhere in the vicinity is scary. It will be abused.

EDIT: In particular I'm thinking about the Sensus meters deployed all over the US. They store usage data for 30 days or more, so being present when a transmission is sent is not a requisite. They use 900Mhz band, which is trivial to access via software defined radio and covers long distance / non-line of sight. They are remotely programmable (but this is an active attack, not passive.). They use a standard data format that is easy to decode (ANSI C12.19). They even have truck mounted devices for reading meter data (all 30+ days) along a block as you drive through it.

 

[BudBag]

DITTO.

They're keeping us exactly where they want us, because the lot of you are blissed in ignorance...

Paranoia will destroy ya.

 

[wintermute]

...
It's really not much different than the current state of affairs. all LEO has to do is call the power company to get your usage.

It seems like this could be defeated by simply staggering the on-off times of multiple lamps. All they'll see is higher than normal power use.
...

The smart meters are worse given the minute by minute resolution of power consumption they achieve. This is in part for peak usage billing, but surprise, becomes extremely valuable to identify usage patterns during the course of a day in hourly or even 5 minute intervals. You can't use staggered light timing to defeat hourly or 5 minute readings.

Some have suggested power storage systems to produce intermittent peak loads (look like electric heater in winter?) but this is expensive and complicated.

 

[~fvk~]

Paranoia will destroy ya.

Really now? Still here, still growing, still dropping bows. But yeah, I use flips anyways. Be my guest if you want to blow your spot up with 12/12 on a smart meter, I'll send you some $ for your commissary in advance. Just in case, you know? Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it wont.

Fuck power meters, fuck Google, fuck cops. They all want to invade your privacy.

 

[ninfan77]

Google Says It Doesn’t Want to Be a Utility
By TOM ZELLER JR.
PhotoGoogle Google’s PowerMeter allows consumers to monitor their home energy use from any Web connection.

Ed Lu, the former astronaut and now program manager for advanced products at Google, wants to be clear: Google is not interested in competing with utilities.

“We are not in the business of providing electric power,” Mr. Lu said in a discussion this morning at the GreenBeat 2009 conference in San Mateo, Calif.

The assertion came in response to a line of questioning by the conference organizer, Matt Marshall of VentureBeat, who ticked off Google’s dominance in search, online advertising, and other Internet markets — and its more recent foray
into cellphone operating systems.

The Internet giant has also been introducing its Power Meter, a software interface that pulls data from “smart,” in-home electricity meters, sends it to the Internet, and repackages it in easy-to-digest charts and graphs attached to the customer’s Google account.

Mr. Marshall suggested that utilities’ greatest fear was that Google would take over the relationship with their electricity customers.

Mr. Lu, responded by asking the gathered crowd of investors and entrepreneurs whether they felt as if they had a grasp of the energy use in their homes, and whether they thought their utilities were good at providing that information.

Few among what appeared to be 200 or so guests raised their hands.

“This is where we think we can help utilities with this particular problem,” Mr. Lu said.

Google recently found a partner in Energy Inc., the maker of The Energy Detective, or T.E.D., a leader in the smart meter field.

Mr. Lu reported that Energy Inc. immediately sold out of its devices after the partnership was announced last month. The device is currently back-ordered.

“Our strength is reaching lots of consumers,” Mr. Lu said — who also fielded questions from the crowd about how Google was making money from the Power Meter, and how it planned to handle consumers’ electric usage data.

On that point, Mr. Lu said customers using the Power Meter were free to discontinue using the product — and to completely delete their data — at any time. “Our feeling is that the customer owns the customer data,” he said.

On profits, Mr. Lu said there weren’t any.

“This is a project of Google.org,” he said, referring to the company’s philanthropic arm. The success of Google.org projects are judged by whether they have an impact on energy and the climate, Mr. Lu said. “The metric by which they are measured is not profitability.”

 

[indicapimp]

Ninfan77...A lot of good research. The problem is Mr. Lu may have good intentions but it is like in the beginning of AT&T. They started out providing a service via phone line which enable people to be able to communicate more easily than sending a letter back and forth. 80 years later our Government uses some bullshit excuse of the Patriot Act and drops in claw right in the back bone of all data communication inside private companies and basically captures every bit of data around the World.

Sorry, but this is the same company that is in bed with our current administration in the US that is scrubbing data that provides insight to what people have said in done in the past and whipping it clean off the Internet to destroy discontent.... Fuck Google!!!!!

 

[mini-mota]

The smart meters are worse given the minute by minute resolution of power consumption they achieve. This is in part for peak usage billing, but surprise, becomes extremely valuable to identify usage patterns during the course of a day in hourly or even 5 minute intervals. You can't use staggered light timing to defeat hourly or 5 minute readings.

Some have suggested power storage systems to produce intermittent peak loads (look like electric heater in winter?) but this is expensive and complicated.

I wondered about the reporting intervals. I'd appreciate it if you could link or point me in the right direction to information that verifies the intervals. They recently replaced our meter with one of the radio controlled digital models as well.

Thanks,

mini

 

[SOTF420]

High Output LED lights that use far less power than HID and less heat so less cooling is needed, and Autoflower strains using 24 hours of light. Problem solved, fuck them.

 

[SKUNK420]

Does anybody have any idea how much electricity goggle uses to run their servers? A flipping lot, more then all our grows put together 24/7 and most of it to serve up porn and other worthless crap to this world. All these new ways of saving energy are truly more about controlling individuals. These new-age tree huggers have no idea how they are playing right into the hands of the people who want to control everything we do. They say they are anti-corporation yet they love the products that corporations produce, they love the education paid for by their mommy's & daddy's corporate jobs and the benefits from the corporation that they themselves work for. Tree huggers can kiss my butt until they go recycle everything they own and not ever use a hospital for the rest of their lives and just live like an Amish person with just life's basic necessities then I'll listen to them.

Al Gore is an fuckinggenius. If not a fan of his one bit but he is an Fing genius. He could not win the vote for president twice. He couldn't be the leader of the free world, so he found another way to make himself important to this world and force the USA to do things his way. He's using global warming. Almost as a way to say F you USA for not voting me president. He pushing for ObaMAO to sign the Cap & Trade bill. Don't forget he's making tons of money for himself and his band of cronies. Though Gore doesn't necessarily show it. If you thought Bush jr. used the war to make money for his corporate friends then you better start paying attention to Al Gore cause he is using the exact same play book and is learning to make it better to work his way. Bush shouted terrorism and Al Gore is shouting the world is burning etc... He will make the USA go backwards in order to level the so-called playing field in the new world economy.

 

[Black Ra1n]

Al Gore is an fuckinggenius. If not a fan of his one bit but he is an Fing genius. He could not win the vote for president twice. He couldn't be the leader of the free world, so he found another way to make himself important to this world and force the USA to do things his way. He's using global warming. Almost as a way to say F you USA for not voting me president. He pushing for ObaMAO to sign the Cap & Trade bill. Don't forget he's making tons of money for himself and his band of cronies. Though Gore doesn't necessarily show it. If you thought Bush jr. used the war to make money for his corporate friends then you better start paying attention to Al Gore cause he is using the exact same play book and is learning to make it better to work his way. Bush shouted terrorism and Al Gore is shouting the world is burning etc... He will make the USA go backwards in order to level the so-called playing field in the new world economy.

Gore has been an environmentalist for years. I don't think he's using global warming for anything, simply educating the masses. Often people don't want to believe the truths, but you can't deny something is wrong. I think we're headed for another ice age, as it seems that's the planets way of fixing shit, eradicate the problem to further your existence.

 

[Rustylions]

3.6 kw Solar Panel System!

Fuck smart grids, leo, power companies and the people that made High School Musical 1, 2 and 3!

RL

 

[joeking]

Plasma lights, they are the future. Growers make up I would say maybe 1 percentile of power usage nation/worldwide, LEO, they don't know shit except what CI's and snitches tell em, so tighten up them lips if you get pinched. This is about we as a society, wake them up, those that are livin in the dark with their lights on 24/7...Education is the answer, awerness.
PEACE IN

 

[SKUNK420]

Gore has been an environmentalist for years. I don't think he's using global warming for anything, simply educating the masses. Often people don't want to believe the truths, but you can't deny something is wrong. I think we're headed for another ice age, as it seems that's the planets way of fixing shit, eradicate the problem to further your existence.

Here you go read up on the global warming hero and don't only talk about the parts where he does things for free........free that will payback big bucks to him and his investors in the end.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/business/energy-environment/03gore.html

Yes humans are affecting the world but not as fast as they are saying. The global warming freeaks are using the global warming issues worse the Bush Jr used the WMD excuse. They are doing the same tricks that Bush Jr did now only better because they had time to "review the tapes" as a sport athlete would say. Hell Anita Dunn said it best on how to control the media and the message.

 

[habeeb]

you never know about google

seems they had there head on straight when they started it, but as they say. $$$ talks, and they seem doubled edged the more I think about them..

goats mowing there lawn, but then they have google earth... ....

 

[hardhat22]

Yes humans are affecting the world but not as fast as they are saying. The global warming freeaks are using the global warming issues worse the Bush Jr used the WMD excuse.

Gore isn't the only socialist that supossedly hates capitalism but would have made huge profits from the global warming scam. I would love to see both gore and obama stripped of their Nobel prizes and forced to personally present them to whomever it is that leaked the emails and data, along with the 2 million in prize money.
Senator obama was a very ambitious man.

"The Chicago Climate Exchange is the brainchild of Richard Sandor...Initial funding of almost $1 million which was crucial to the exchange’s launch came in 2000 and 2001 from the Chicago-based Joyce Foundation, whose board of directors, which approved the funding, included Barack Obama, then an Illinois state senator."
http://romanticpoet.wordpress.com/2...ate-change-initiative-friends-in-high-places/

We've defeated their plans for Copenhagen,but the battle isn't over untill the epa have been shown the error of their ways.Many lawsuites are pending against gore,obama and the epa. It's up to our shaky justice system and the will of American citizens now.This has been the strangest war.....
Peace