Geography, History and Human Universal Culture:

[Montuno]

(2 and End)- Tartessos: a civilization that abruptly disappeared:​

Historical stages of Tartessian art​

As already mentioned in the previous point, it is believed, with the data we have so far, that Tartessos has three different stages; indigenous tartessos of the geometric period, the Phoenician or orientalizing tartessos and the Carthaginian tartessos , final stage, with an art that evolves and intermingles, during the three stages:

1. Geometric period of indigenous tartessos:​

The first Tartessian art is very modest , it corresponds more to the cultural, historical or anthropological sphere than to the purely artistic. It is the best testimony of the most important stage of tartessos , that of his training, in which he shows his most personal creations. Until not long ago, it was discussed whether this stage corresponds to tartessos. Today it is a resolved issue ( Tartessos unveiled, by Fernández Flores and Araceli Rodríguez). The pottery of the first Tartessian period shows its best facet in two ceramic families: one with characteristic burnished motifs, called burnished grid ; and another, with painted decoration, of the Carambolo type. In these two families of ceramics, geometric motifs predominate in the decoration.

Polished ceramics from the Carambolo site
Thus the stage of tartessos (indigenous) was formed, which for artistic production is called; geometric period . The Phoenician colonization gives rise to a new stage in the history of Tartessos, the orientalizing phase .

2. Phoenician or orientalizing Tartessos.​

The Phoenician colonization affected the Tartessian civilization, changing its artistic production. The Phoenician legacy makes its effects felt already in advanced moments of the 8th century BC. C., and is a dominant phenomenon in the VII and VI centuries a. C. _ Their influence on Greek products is unknown, although they are abundant in Tartessian centers such as Huelva, which show direct contact with Greeks. Tartessian art is impregnated with the orientalizing influence raised fundamentally by the presence of the Phoenicians, and loses the sobriety of the geometric period and the stamp of its original personality. It is also notorious, the fame of magnificent craftsmen that the Phoenicians had in ancient times. The resultof the union of Tartessian and Phoenician art is an eclectic and characteristic style.

Seated figurine of the Goddess Astarte found at the Carambolo site
Votive offering dedicated to Astarte located by chance in the Carambolo. The base of the footstool presents a Phoenician inscription where the devotees thank the goddess for having listened to her pleas.

3. Final stage of Tartessos, Carthaginian colonization:​

The successors of the Phoenicians were the Carthaginians , who came from Carthage, a large industrial center located in present-day Tunisia. The Carthaginians founded a number of colonies in the western Mediterranean, including Cartago Nova (present-day Cartagena) and Ebyssos (Ibiza). In the year 550 BC the Carthaginians installed their garrisons on the Spanish coast to help the Phoenicians against Tartessos. However, once the bases were installed, they subdued the Iberians. They reached Cádiz and, finally, expelled the Phoenicians, thus sinking the orientalizing Tartessian culture . The action of the Carthaginians in the Iberian Peninsula had a military character, as well as a purely commercial one.

In the sixth century a. C., Tartessos finally disappears from history , possibly swept away by Carthage and the other Phoenician colonies (Gadir, the Phoenician metropolis, was in the midst of the kingdom of the Tartessos). Others say that it was refounded , under unclear conditions, under the name of Carpia . The Romans called the wide Bay of Cadiz 'Tartessius Sinus', but the kingdom was no more. It is also considered that the depletion of the mineral veins, the main source of their commercial wealth, would have collapsed the Tartessian economy and created social convulsions by losing their wealth and power, based on foreign trade. Once the wealth disappeared, the political and social unity of the Tartessian nuclei would have been lost. Other theories claimthat its disappearance could be due to invasions by the Celts and there is even talk that there could have been an earthquake.

More recently it has been suggested that this civilization could have been wiped off the map by the succession of natural disasters in the area.

Carambole's treasure​

Treasure of the carambola found by chance in 1958 , it was initially stated that the pieces could be part of the decoration of some individual invested with royal character. The latest hypotheses suggest that they would be liturgical elements carried by the victims of the sacrifices (probably oxen) and by the priest in charge of them.

Treasure of the Carambolo composed of bracelets, necklaces and pectorals
There are other Tartessian treasures outside the territory of the peninsular south-east, such as: the earthy one of Alísenla in Cáceres or that of Belvis de Jara in Toledo.

▷ Tartessos: una civilización que desapareció de forma abrupta - dearte.site

En todo el tiempo de la naturaleza humana, en su búsqueda de la felicidad y el deseo de poseerla, gozarla y retenerla, el hombre ha querido imaginar un

www.dearte.site

More Tartessic' art:

 

[Montuno]

MARIJUANA WAS DOMESTICATED 12,000 YEARS AGO AT THE SAME TIME AS WHEAT, STUDY SHOWS​

PHOTO: GETTY IMAGES

From the analysis of a hundred species, it was determined that the domestication of marijuana contributed to its persistence on the planet.​

Recent research from the University of Laussane, in Switzerland, ensures that the relationship between human beings and cannabis dates back 12,000 years. Along with wheat and other cereals, the domestication of marijuana was a gradual process that involved textile efforts and the development of traditional medical knowledge in East Asia . Despite this, the natural history of the plant had not been studied in detail. Until now.

neolithic roots​

Photo: Hector Vivas/Getty Images

The study, published in Science Advances , focused on the genomic side of cannabis . According to Doctor of Science Luca Fumagalli from the UNIL Department of Ecology and Evolution, the domestication of marijuana is closely linked to its textile and medicinal use . Starting from the fibers and oil seeds, Neolithic humans used the plant to treat neuralgic ailments, given its analgesic properties .

Large-scale whole-genome resequencing unravels the domestication history of Cannabis sativa:​

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abg2286

With a global sample of never-before-seen scale, experts sequenced the complete genomes of more than 100 cannabis specimens , taken from different parts of Asia. With them, the experts realized that, contrary to what was originally believed, the first contact with marijuana did not occur in the center of the continent, but in the easternmost region.

Fumagalli assures that this is the first time that the historical development of cannabis has been considered as a matter of serious study, since the legal restrictions in various countries hinder an in- depth investigation. From its evolutionary history, however, the team of scientists considered the biomedical benefits of the species today.

unknown phylogenetic lines​

The diversity of species considered in the sample showed that some traditional and wild Chinese varieties make up a previously unknown genetic line. According to Fumagalli, this species was domesticated at the same time as wheat and barley. It was in this way, moreover, that it spread to other parts of Asia .

Over a long period of time, the scientists say in a statement , the "evolution of the cannabis genome also suggests that our ancestors would have cultivated the plant for versatile use ." Fumagalli's team suggests that, were it not for its multiple uses in prehistory, the species might not have persisted .

Despite the fact that human contact was decisive for its conservation and spread, the authors state that some of its functions were lost over time . From artificial selection , its structural components linked to the synthesis of THC and CBD were modified. Finally, the study served to understand that marijuana is a multifaceted plant since prehistory.

La marihuana se domesticó hace 12,000 años al mismo tiempo que el trigo, demuestra un estudio - National Geographic en Español

A partir del análisis de un centenar de especies, se determinó que la domesticación de la marihuana contribuyó a su persistencia en el…

www.ngenespanol.com

 

[nono_fr]

Hello !

World’s Oldest Jewelry Excavated at a Moroccan Cave - https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/oldest-jewelry-0015854​

Human beings have been wearing necklaces, bracelets, earrings, and other forms of jewelry for a long time. But the discovery of a cache of prehistoric Aterian sea snail shell beads at a cave in western Morocco has pushed the origin of this practice back farther than archaeologists and anthropologists ever expected. These seashell beads were determined to be somewhere between 142,000 and 150,000 years old, making them the oldest jewelry found anywhere in the world up to this time. The existence of these almost unimaginably ancient beads that were used to make the world’s oldest jewelry was announced to the world on September 22, in an article appearing in the journal Science Advances .

Shell is like money for social activity .This is old civilization

 

[Montuno]

Too bad that there are Somali freighters from the '80s run aground on the Namibian coast less rusty than my English... After a decade without speaking or listening to it, right now I only understand Gibraltarians and Puerto Ricans, heh...

So correct me if I'm wrong: the ones in the video would be the oldest human footprints found in the American continent, which would delay by about 10,000 years the first human entry in America, no?
This would be in line with other footprints found earlier as far south as Chile, and that with more than 15,000 years contradicted the theory of the first population of America about 13,500 years ago by Bearing and Alaska...

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

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Descubren huellas humanas de hace 23,000 años que cambiarán la historia del poblamiento de América - National Geographic en Español

El descubrimiento más importante en el último siglo confirma que la humanidad llegó a América hace 23,000 años. Las huellas humanas encontrad

www.google.com

.

Los seres humanos pudieron llegar a América antes de lo que se pensaba

El hallazgo de un conjunto de huellas fósiles en el lecho de un antiguo lago del Parque Nacional de White Sands, en Nuevo México, apunta a que la ocupación humana de América del Norte se produjo antes del Último Máximo Glacial

www.nationalgeographic.com.es

.

Las huellas humanas que rompen con la teoría más aceptada sobre cómo se pobló América

Están en Nuevo México, EEUU, y tienen unos 23.000 años. El hallazgo indica que los primeros pobladores de la región llegaron al continente mucho antes de la Era de Hielo

www.infobae.com

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Los investigadores trabajan en la excavación de una huella en el fondo de una zanja, en el Parque White Sands.

Restos de huellas humanas en White Sands National Monument (Matthew Bennett/Bournemouth University)

Restos de huellas humanas dentro de una huella de un perezoso gigante (megafauna extinta), lo que también muestra la interacción o el cruce entre humanos y animales. (Matthew Bennett/Bournemouth University)

 

[buzzmobile]

@Montuno, Escalante wandered through the area not far from the location of the pictographs.

Another spot that is interesting is Cahokia near St. Louis, Missouri.

Why Did Cahokia, One of North America’s Largest Pre-Hispanic Cities, Collapse?

The large mound in the illustration above is Monks Mound which "is the largest Pre-Columbian earthwork in the Americas and the largest pyramid north of Mesoamerica."

It's bigger than it looks from a distance.

View from the top of Monks Mound

 

[h.h.]

Hippie hill in SF.

 

[Montuno]

@buzzmobile : More than 2 centuries before Escalante (religious), wasn't At least Coronado (conquistador) there (or very near) https://www.nps.gov/dino/learn/historyculture/viewing-petroglyphs-and-pictographs.htm ?:

About De Soto explorations across USA, in English :
Post in thread 'War' https://www.icmag.com/threads/war.18074832/post-18121441
.

About Francisco de Coronado:

Francisco Vazquez de Coronado

​	​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​

Spain 1510 ~ 1554

Letter to the Emperor, informing him of the expedition to the Province of Quivira, and of the inaccuracy of what Fray Marcos de Niza referred to about that country.

The seven cities of Cíbola and Quivira

shipwrecks

Francisco Vázquez de Coronado was born in Salamanca, Spain in 1510.
He arrived at the viceroyalty of New Spain accompanying the first viceroy Don Antonio de Mendoza , in 1535.

​

Coronado enters Hawikuh, a town of the Zuni, in search of gold. Illustration by W. Langdon Kihn, published in The National Geographic Magazine, November 1940.

Vázquez de Coronado distinguished himself by his ability to pacify the natives and so in 1538 he was appointed governor of the Audiencia of Nueva Galicia to replace the first governor of the province , Nuño Beltrán de Guzmán . As governor, he supported Fray Marcos de Niza to explore northern Mexico on a mission conferred on him by Viceroy Antonio de Mendoza.
In 1528, the expedition led by Pánfilo de Narváez was shipwrecked on the coast of Florida . There were four survivors of it, who crossed the southwestern United States and northern Mexico on foot for eight years until they reached Culiacán Sinaloa, where they found a Spanish village. Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca wrote an account of that expedition entitled "Shipwrecks" . In it he describes his adventures and those of his three companions: Alonso del Castillo, Andrés Dorantes de Carranza, and a slave named Esteban (Estevanico).
With these antecedents, the friar Marcos de Niza was sent on an exploratory trip; he returned speaking of the riches of seven cities of gold called Cíbola , of which he had heard on his journey. This aroused the interest of Coronado, who decided to go in search of that mythical city.
The expedition
The expedition launched on February 23, 1540 with 336 Spanish soldiers, four priests (including Fray Marcos), several hundred Mexican Indian allies, and 1,500 head of cattle.
In addition to the expedition that left by land from Compostela Nayarit, in those days the capital of the province called the kingdom of Nueva Galicia, they were accompanied by ships that followed them by sea under the command of Fernando de Alarcón, who carried the provisions and another small by land organized by García López de Cárdenas, who would discover the Colorado Canyon.
After reaching Culiacán, Coronado and 100 of his soldiers marched ahead of the slower-moving main army, reaching Háwikuh on July 7, 1540, the first of the mythical Cities of Cíbola . Instead of a prosperous city, they found a town built of stone and full of Indians ready for war. After a short period of unsuccessful negotiations, the Spanish attacked and forced the Indians to leave the place. The town, well supplied with provisions, became Coronado's headquarters until November 1540. Fray Marcos, whose tales had raised so many hopes of fortune, was sent to Mexico City in an atmosphere of growing resentment.
Coronado's groups reconvened and wintered in Tiguex near the New Mexico city of Santa Fe, on the banks of the Rio Grande.
The expedition was attacked several times by the natives, but Vázquez de Coronado's forces successfully repelled them.
In the spring of 1540 the expedition entered the canyon of Palo Duro Texas in search of gold, Coronado left most of his men there and continued on horseback with thirty expeditionaries in search of another myth, the city of Quivira, supposedly full of of riches

During the expedition he had met a Pawnee Indian, Xabel, whom he called "El Turco" , who told him about Quivira, a rich country to the northwest. He decided to go in search of Quivira, taking the Turk as a guide. He crossed the prairie and continued on his way north. He found a small town near present-day Lindsborg, Kansas. The disappointment was repeated: The Quivira Indians, later known as Wichita, did not have any wealth; their village consisted of thatched-roof huts and they didn't even have gold jewelry.
Xabel , who finally confessed that the Quivira story was a conspiracy by the Indians to induce the troops to the plains in the hope that they would starve, was executed.
Coronado returned to Tiguex, where the bulk of his troops awaited him. There he spent another winter.
His dreams of fame and wealth shattered, he led his men back to Mexico City in the spring of 1542. Although discredited, he resumed his post as governor of Nueva Galicia until 1544, Viceroy Mendoza had received him coldly, and initiated process for having abandoned the expedition that had been entrusted to him.
He then retired to Mexico City, where he died on September 22, 1554, relatively unknown, unaware that he had laid the groundwork for exploration of the "American West." The indigenous religion was transformed and incorporated the teachings of the priests who accompanied him and he brought back with him the knowledge of the people and land of the North, which allowed Spanish explorers and missionaries to colonize the Southwest.
His nephew Juan Vázquez de Coronado (1523-1565) carried out the conquest of Costa Rica and distinguished himself for his humanitarian actions. Felipe II granted him in 1565 the hereditary title of Adelantado de Costa Rica, which his descendants held until 1823.

Francisco Vázquez de Coronado

pueblosoriginarios.com

 

[Microbeman]

Other paintings from different periods and sites, alluding to dog domestication :

View attachment 18123446 View attachment 18123448 View attachment 18123449 View attachment 18123450 View attachment 18123451 View attachment 18123452
View attachment 18123460 View attachment 18123462

Historically one thinks of the Roman dogs of war, the Molossian, purportedly evolved into the Mastiffs of today. Some say also Rottweilers
https://albanianstudies.weebly.com/molossian-dog.html

https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/article/dog-in-ancient-rome/

Apparently, Romans (and others at the time) kept dogs as house pets as well as separately distinguished guard, work and war animals.

 

[Microbeman]

View attachment 18123824

View attachment 18123831

@Montuno, Escalante wandered through the area not far from the location of the pictographs.

Another spot that is interesting is Cahokia near St. Louis, Missouri.

Why Did Cahokia, One of North America’s Largest Pre-Hispanic Cities, Collapse?
View attachment 18123838

The large mound in the illustration above is Monks Mound which "is the largest Pre-Columbian earthwork in the Americas and the largest pyramid north of Mesoamerica."

View attachment 18123843

View attachment 18123844

It's bigger than it looks from a distance.
View attachment 18123845

View attachment 18123846

View attachment 18123847

View from the top of Monks Mound
View attachment 18123848

Buzz; I often bring up this area in discussion with people who refer to the indigenous peoples of North America as primitive disorganized savages, barely surviving prior to salvation imposed by European heroes.
It is interesting to contemplate the potential connection with this location and the pre-Mayan civilizations in Mexico. Somewhat mind boggling.

Also the connection with the Dene people of Northern Canada/Alaska and the Navajo, who speak basically the same language. One wonders if the spread/migration flowed south or north.

 

[buzzmobile]

@buzzmobile : More than a century before Escalante (religious), wasn't At least Coronado (conquistador) there (or very near) https://www.nps.gov/dino/learn/historyculture/viewing-petroglyphs-and-pictographs.htm ?:

Yes, Coronado explored out there before Escalante. De Soto wandered around the west coast of Florida up to N Florida, the Southeast USA, and as far as Texas. One of your references mentions Lake Jackson mounds which are just a few miles south of here. The Spanish went through hell in Florida.

 

[buzzmobile]

Buzz; I often bring up this area in discussion with people who refer to the indigenous peoples of North America as primitive disorganized savages, barely surviving prior to salvation imposed by European heroes.

The artifacts in the museum disprove that mistaken belief. There were thriving cities and settlements across the Americas.

 

[Montuno]

(1)- Letter from Francisco Vázquez Coronado to the Emperor,​

giving an account of the expedition to the Province of Quivira, and of the inaccuracy of what was referred to Fray Marcos de Niza, about that country 1

Francisco Vazquez Coronado​

His Catholic Majesty Caesarea:

On April 20 of this year, I wrote to Your Majesty, from this province of Tiguex, in response to a letter from Your Majesty, made in Madrid on June 11 of last year, and I gave you a particular account and reason for this day, that the Viceroy of New Spain ordered me to do it in the name of Your Majesty, to this land discovered by Fray Marcos de Niza, provincial of the order of Lord San Francisco, and of what all of it is and of the quality of the people, as Your Majesty he will have sent to see by my letters. And that understanding in the conquest and pacification of the natives of this province, certain Indians, natives of other provinces, later these, had given me a report, that in their land there were much larger towns and better houses than those of the natives of this land, and that there were gentlemen who commanded them, and that they served themselves in golden vessels, and other great things. And although, as I wrote to Your Majesty, because it was a list of Indians and more by signs, I did not believe them until I saw it through my eyes, the list seemed very great and that it mattered to the service of Your Majesty that it be seen, I decided with the people that I have here from illa to see, and I left this province, on the 23rd of last April, where the Indians wanted to guide us. And after nine days that I walked, I reached some plains so large that where I walked I could not find them, although I walked over them for more than 300 leagues; and in them I found so many cows, of which I wrote to Your Majesty that there were in this land, that numbering them is impossible, because I never walked through the plains, until I returned where I found them, that I lost them. And 17 days on the road, I ran into a ranchería of Indians, who walk with these cows, which they call querechos, which do not plant, and eat raw meat and drink the blood of the cows they kill. These dress the hides, from the cows, that all the people wear on this land; they have pavilions of pickled and greased cow hides, very well made, where they get in, and they go after the cows, moving with them; they have dogs, which they carry, in which they carry their tents and sticks and trifles; They are the most well-disposed people that I have seen to date in the Indies. These did not know how to give me an account of the land where the guides were taking me; and where they wanted to guide me, I walked another five days, until I reached some plains, as without a sign as if we were engulfed in the sea, where they made a mistake, because in all of them there is not a stone, or slope, or tree, or bush, or anything that looks like it; there are many and very beautiful dehesas of good yerba. And being lost in these plains, certain men on horseback, who went out to hunt cows, ran into some Indians, who were also hunting, who are enemies of those whom I ran into in the last rachería, and another nation of people called the teyas, all carved bodies and faces, people likewise grown, of very good disposition. These also eat raw meat such as querechos; they live and walk the same way they do with the cows. Of these, I had a relationship with the land where the guides took me, which was not as they had told me, because they built the houses of straw and leather there, and not of stone and tall, as the guides who made them for me he carried, and in them little corn food. And with this new one I received a lot of sorrow, for seeing me on those endless plains; where I had a great need for water, and many times I drank it, so bad that it had more of a silt than water. There the guides confessed to me that, apart from the greatness of the houses, they had not told me the truth, because they were made of straw; that in the crowd of people and other police things, they said it. And the teyas were against this. And because of this division that existed between some Indians and others, and also because there had already been a few days when many of the people I brought with me ate only meat, because they ran out of corn that we harvested from this province, and because from where I bumped into these teyas, to the land where the guides were taking me, they traveled more than forty days; Although the work and danger that there would be during the day due to the lack of water and corn, it seemed to me, to see if there would be anything to serve Your Majesty, to go ahead with only thirty horse, until they could see the land, to make a true report to Your Majesty of what he saw in it. And I sent all the other people that I had with me to this province, and as leader, Don Tristán de Arellano; because according to the lack of water, others that they had to kill bulls and cows to sustain themselves, that they had no other food, it was impossible to stop many people from perishing, if they all went forward. And with only thirty horses, which I took for my company, I walked 42 days, after I left the people, sustaining ourselves on all of them with only the meat that we killed from bulls and cows, at the expense of some horses that killed us, because they are , as I have written to Your Majesty, very brave and fierce animals;
(...)

 

[Montuno]

(2)- Letter from Francisco Vázquez Coronado to the Emperor,​

giving an account of the expedition to the Province of Quivira, and of the inaccuracy of what was referred to Fray Marcos de Niza, about that country

(...)
It pleased Our Lord that, after having walked through those deserts for sixty-seven days, I arrived at the province called Quivira, where the guides took me and had pointed out stone houses with many heights; and not only are there not stone, but straw; but their people are so barbaric, like all those I have seen and passed up to here, that they do not have blankets, or cotton to make them, but rather hides that they marinate, from the cows that they kill, because stars are populated in a well-fed river. big. They eat raw meat, such as querechos and teyas. They are enemies of each other, but they are all people in a way; and these from Quivira give the others an advantage in the houses they have and in planting corn. In this province, where the guides who took me are from, they received me with peace, and although when I left for there they told me that in two months I would not finish seeing all of it, there is not in it, and in everything else that I saw and knew, more than twenty-five towns with straw streets, which gave obedience to Your Majesty and were placed under his royal lordship. Their people are grown and some Indians I had measured and found that they were ten hands tall; the women are of a good disposition, their faces are more in the image of Moors than of Indians. There the natives gave me a piece of copper, which a leading Indian wore hanging from his neck; I am sending it to the viceroy of New Spain, because I have not seen any other metal in these parts but that and certain copper bells that I sent him and a little metal that looked like gold, that I have not known where it came from, more than that I believe that the Indians who gave it to me had some of the ones that I bring here for service, because otherwise I cannot find its birth, nor do I know where it is from. The diversity of languages that exist in this mountain range and having lacked someone who understands them, because in each town they speak their own, has hurt me, because I have been forced to send captains and people to many places, to find out if in this land there would be where Your Majesty could be served; and although with all diligence it has been searched, it has not been found or had a relationship of any town, if it is not from these provinces, which is very little. The province of Quivira is nine hundred and fifty leagues from Mexico; Where I came from, it's forty degrees. The land itself is the most prepared that has been seen to give in it all the things of Spain, because apart from being itself thick and black and having very good water from streams and fountains and rivers, I found all the things of Spain and nuts and sweet and very good grapes and blackberries. To the natives of that province, and to the others that I have come across through my passage, I have given all possible good treatment, in accordance with what Your Majesty has ordered; and in no thing have they received injury from me or from those who have walked in my company. I stopped in this province of Quivira for twenty-five days, both to see and explore the land, as well as to find out if there was anything ahead in which I could serve Your Majesty, because the guides I was taking had given me news of other provinces ahead of it. And what could have been is that there was no gold or other metal in all that land; and the others, of which they gave me a list, are nothing but small towns; and in many of them they don't plant or have houses except hides and canes, and they move around with the cows. In a way, that the relationship they gave me was false, because I moved to go there with all the people; believing that, because the road was so deserted and uninhabited and lacking in water, they would put us somewhere where our horses and we would die of hunger. And so the guides confessed, and that by advice and commandment of the natives of these provinces they had done it. And with this, after having seen the land of Quivira, and given the account that I have mentioned above, I returned to this province to take note of the people I sent to it and to report to Your Majesty on what that province is. land, because when I saw it I wrote to Your Majesty that I would do it. I have done everything possible to serve Your Majesty and discover land, where God Our Lord would be served and expanded the Royal Patrimony of Your Majesty, as his loyal servant and vassal; Because since I arrived in the province of Cíbola, where the Visorrey of New Spain sent me in the name of Your Majesty, since there was nothing Fray Marcos said, I have tried to discover this land, two hundred leagues and more to the roundabout of Cíbola, and the best thing I have found is this river of Tiguex in which I am and the towns on it, which are not to be populated, because in addition to being four hundred leagues from the North Sea, and from the South Sea more than two hundred, where there can be no way of dealing, the land is so cold, as I have written to Your Majesty, that it seems impossible to be able to spend the winter in it, because there is no firewood or clothing with which the men can be warm, but leathers with which the natives dress, and some cotton blankets, in small quantities. I send to the viceroy of New Spain a report of everything I have seen in the lands I have traveled; and because Don Gonzalo Pérez de Cárdenas is going to kiss Your Majesty's hands, who on this day has worked hard and served Your Majesty very well and will give an account to Your Majesty of everything here, as a man who has seen it, I refer to him.
- And may Our Lord keep His Catholic Caesarean person of Your Majesty, with increases of greater kingdoms and lordships, as his loyal servants and vassals wish.

- From this province of Tiguex October 20, 1511 years.- His Caesarean Catholic Majesty.- Humble servant and vassal of Your Majesty, who kisses your Royal feet and hands.

Carta de Francisco Vázquez Coronado al Emperador, dándole cuenta de la expedición a la Provincia de Quivira y de la inexactitud de lo referido a Fr. Marcos de Niza, acerca de aquel país

www.cervantesvirtual.com

 

[Montuno]

Cave canem, @Microbeman

 

[tobedetermined]

The artifacts in the museum disprove that mistaken belief. There were thriving cities and settlements across the Americas.

But using the typical classification, they never moved beyond the copper age at best.

From my summer working on a sod farm . . .

 

[Montuno]

Buzz; I often bring up this area in discussion with people who refer to the indigenous peoples of North America as primitive disorganized savages, barely surviving prior to salvation imposed by European heroes.
It is interesting to contemplate the potential connection with this location and the pre-Mayan civilizations in Mexico. Somewhat mind boggling.

Also the connection with the Dene people of Northern Canada/Alaska and the Navajo, who speak basically the same language. One wonders if the spread/migration flowed south or north.

Could you elaborate on what is marked in bold?
In what date/epoch would these relations be framed (because they should be before 900 BC)?
Would they be relations with the Olmecs?

I am not an expert on this, but from what I have read about the North American subcontinent, at least since Olmec times, there was (much?) more cultural flow from Mesoamerica to Aridamerica and Osisamerica (from South to North) than the other way around?
In fact the Mexica (Aztecs) migrated from Aridamerica to Mesoamerica, embracing and adapting the culture they found, while the Mesoamerican peoples spoke of them in terms similar to how the Roman world called the Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Berber...; as "barbarians"...

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

[Montuno]

© TITANIA COMPAÑÍA EDITORIAL, SL 2022. Spain. All rights r

Culture
They find remains of a civilization before the Mayans in Mexico:

IN SUBMERGED OCHER CAVES

They find remains of a civilization before the Mayans in Mexico​

They have been found in mines between 12,000 and 13,000 years old, cataloged as the oldest in America​

Underwater ocher mine in the Yucatan (Mexico). Photo: CINDAQ.ORG Handout via REUTERS:
For
The confidential
07/06/2020 - 12:00 Updated: 07/06/2020 - 17:17

Remains of a civilization 8,000 years older than the Mayans , which may be the oldest on the American continent, have been found in an old ocher mine , now submerged, near the Yucatan ( Mexico ).

Scientists from the Quintana Roo Aquifer System Research Center (CINDAQ) have found in a complex of underwater caves in the area, formed by a 374 km labyrinth of tunnels, which thousands of years ago were on the surface and which, later, flooded

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Their results have been published in the scientific journal ' Science Advances ' and it is an important milestone in the prehistory of the American continent. What they have found are the remains in a very good state of conservation of an ocher mine that is between 12,000 and 13,000 years old , cataloged as the oldest in America.

Before on the surface, now submerged​

Ocher is a mineral that was already used by Neanderthals as a natural pigment . The ancient inhabitants of the area entered the caves to extract it because they used it to paint , dye objects, use it in rituals and for hygiene reasons, as it was used to ward off insects.

After more than 100 dives and 600 hours of work, the CINDAQ researchers have collected samples and taken more than 20,000 photographs to generate a 3D model of the site and provide archaeologists with virtual access to it. Among the located remains, instruments have been found to extract the ocher, the wells where they excavated and stone mounds created on purpose to orient themselves. Remains of bonfires have also been found , with charcoal and even soot marks on the ceiling of the cave.

Hallan restos de una civilización previa a los mayas en México

Se han encontrado en unas minas de entre 12.000 y 13.000 años de antigüedad, catalogadas como las más antiguas en América

www.elconfidencial.com

Paleoindian ochre mines in the submerged caves of the Yucatán Peninsula, Quintana Roo, Mexico:​

SCIENCE ADVANCES • 3 Jul 2020 • Vol 6, Issue 27 • DOI: 10.1126/sciadv.aba1219

Abstract​

Investigations in the now-submerged cave systems on the Yucatán Peninsula continue to yield evidence for human presence during the Pleistocene-Holocene transition. Skeletal remains are scattered throughout the caves of Quintana Roo, most representing individuals who died in situ. The reasons why they explored these underground environments have remained unclear. Here, we announce the discovery of the first subterranean ochre mine of Paleoindian age found in the Americas, offering compelling evidence for mining in three cave systems on the eastern Yucatán over a ~2000-year period between ~12 and 10 ka. The cave passages exhibit preserved evidence for ochre extraction pits, speleothem digging tools, shattered and piled flowstone debris, cairn navigational markers, and hearths yielding charcoal from highly resinous wood species. The sophistication and extent of the activities demonstrate a readiness to venture into the dark zones of the caves to prospect and collect what was evidently a highly valued mineral resource.
MORE:

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aba1219

 

[Montuno]

Now, because of Petroquímico, everyone knows about the little boat with which we helped (with a lot of panache) to supply cocaine in a thousand and one ports, including New York.
On the bright side, according to the sailors, even more people (and with dollars in their hands, instead of photo and video equipment) are now waiting for them at every port of call.

Con más Garbo (Panache) que Greta...

with panache

 

[Montuno]

But using the typical classification, they never moved beyond the copper age at best.

From my summer working on a sod farm . . .

View attachment 18123915

What is the lower and center piece, which shows holes?
Could you specify the temporal and geographical context, if possible?

 

[armedoldhippy]

But using the typical classification, they never moved beyond the copper age at best.

From my summer working on a sod farm . . .

View attachment 18123915

illuminating, at the least. i've read extensively about the early Ameri-Indian cultures for years, but had not run across (or did not remember) any references of them smelting copper. they were still knapping/making points from european settlers trash (broken glass, scrap metal etc) up into the 1800s. there are pieces in museums that Ishi, the "last wild indian" as he was called, had knapped of various colors of glass while living at the University of California in San Fran. i find points & debitage from knapping pretty often here while fishing. an island near here on the Holston River was in continuous use by the Cherokee for only God knows how long...