Genetic Drift..Population genetics.. mutations..

[N. Accumbens]

i would a - agree that most probably yes that could be epigenetic response to stress though would not dare as of this moment surmise the mechanisms responsible- hoping someone could explain that in plants more as i study humans more specifically

which led me to a few cognitive neuroscience articles completely amazing- something about wiring the whole brain into a functioning curcuit through random associations and well, no mind....

I would say to prevent genetic drift- something is always drifting somewhere btw we would have to stop space and time

since both those things affect future lineages

but in order to get one of those seed stocks which seems to unbottleneck the gene stock- i would def grow AS MANY PLANTS AS I D.A.R.E. from as old and "pure" a stock as i could find... from as many places as i can.... in as many places as i can and let them free range cross.... then i would take all that seed.... give it to as many people as i can ask them to grow it out in as large a number as they can.... and cross em all out- do that a couple times- and then we'll see what genetic drift is all about~ using numbers m,ay be futile in this case- since this is a matter of numbers- but it also a matter of principle- dear mr. pres? how many plants can we grow- so that the world may be healed- how many activists must go to jail before coal turns to hemp- pressure time- crystals like sparkling diamonds errupt the essential oils - aromas and terpenes unlocking the epigenetic portions of our mind allowing what once never was to be

take some afghani, add a little africa, bit-o columbian- squeeze in an island or two- dont forget humid, arid, high, low, combine, recombine- genetic drift is just a flo in a direction- we need it to be in the un- bottlenecked direction - did i mention open pollination
lately nature seems to be taking things her own way anyways- someone might wanna save some of them older veggie seeds too- peace folks
KA~

 

[DocLeaf]

phenotype isn't bs,, but it doesn't make the term phenotype bogus in any way.

Not the word 'phenotype' ,,that's a real word

My beef is with the term "pheno"... which someone , somewhere pulled out their ass one day,, and 'cannabis growers' since have been growing up thinking "pheno" is a credible botanical term to describe a specimen clone.

For clarification on the term "murk" check out the urban dictionary.! (btw i mean no harm to Kopshite,, we just dont take kindly to trolls giving us verbal...lol).

aslong as you are saying one genotype can have multiple specimens.
is it a terminoligy issue here?

i dont understand why i can have a pack of 11 ak47(example) and can get 11 different specimens...
specimen=/=genotype but genotype == specimen ?

ive seen alot of plants that "are the same but different" with attributes that cannot be explained by environment.

Yes it is semantic sure... however

A 'specimen' is normally a plant that typically represents the species/cultivar it came from in observational characteristics. These specimens are used as example plants.

(just like the breed standard in dogs) Plants are considered 'specimen' when unique,, exceptional, but mainly when they truly represent the specific qualities of the species/cultivar and fit within the breed standard of the variety and family group.

Judges,, judge specimen plants not "phenos".

For example,, a tree with broken branches would not be considered an 'good specimen',, while an ancient Oak may be considered an 'old specimen',, a tree with a gnarled trunk may be a "unique specimen" ,, and so on.

Depending on the breeder/breeding... will dictate how many "specimen" plants you will get from a 10 pack of seeds.

Hope this helps

Peace n flowers

 

[kopite]

Special and different I believe is generally regarded as evolved atleast if its to a benefit. The gene that causes the mutation in DJs plants could arguably be evolved cannabis imo. Since Ive never grown out one of these mutants Ill leave that to those that have.

So my question really isnt whats the statistical number (ne) of plants is necessary to make genetic drift unlikely, but rather how many plants do you guys with experience think you need for a reasonable breeding project without likely genetic drift. I know that statistics seem to play a large roll in determining numbers but Im asking more for rl experience.

A new question I have is ... do we know exactly how diverse cannabis is relative to other things... In other words do we know how many alleles is in say fish compared to cannabis.

Edit: I should add that Im not sure alleles is the proper term for what im trying to say. Im just asking do we know how diverse cannabis is genetically in comparison to say fish...

YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT A PLAN OR WORKING OUT THE Ne, YOU MAY AS WELL PISS IN THE WIND..... regardless of fish or plants the same rules apply.

Kopite

 

[Texicannibus]

Kopite then am I to assume that the Ne is taking into account selection and enviromental factors? .. So Ne is a rule that cannot be broken?

The article below specifically states that genetic drift is a theory ... not a rule.
Repost:


To add to this ... from a article I have found about some sheep.
http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Re...Drift_999.html (external link)

Quote:
A whimsical attempt to establish a herd of mouflon for sport hunting on a remote island in the Indian Ocean 50 years ago has inadvertently created a laboratory for genetic researchers and led to a surprising discovery. A mouflon population, bred over dozens of generations from a single male and female pair transplanted to Haute Island from a Parisian zoo, has maintained the genetic diversity of its founding parents. This finding challenges the widely accepted theory of genetic drift, which states the genetic diversity of an inbred population will decrease over time.
"What is amazing is that models of genetic drift predict the genetic diversity of these animals should have been lost over time, but we've found that it has been maintained," said Dr. David Coltman, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of Alberta.

"We think this has happened because natural selection is more important to the evolutionary process than is commonly believed," he added.

So kopite can you explain this? How did these animals break the 'rules'.

How many breeders have experienced genetic drift , how many growers have had plants that suffered from genetic drift?... must be lots considering the average breeding numbers I have observed.

 

[kopite]

The Ne does not just apply to Drift FYI, and lets see those Sheep in hundreds of years though can't read it as link does not seem to work? and rules are always there to be broken haha, a fella called M lynch has some good papers on drift, inbreeding etc

 

[indifferent]

The big problem with working with small Ne numbers is the reinforcement of negative traits, look at the royal families of Europe, they intermarried amongst themselves for centuries and ended up a total mess, the Russian royals had Haemophilia issues in their branch, Kaiser Wilhelm had a shrivelled left arm and an overbite (hence the huge moustache) the Habsburgs in Austria were riddled with congenital problems.

Plants are different from people of course, but the same inbreeding issues crop up - mutants, freaks, weak individuals with no pest/disease resistance, loss of vigour, etc.

 

[englishrick]

gene expression is the most fundamental level at which genotype gives rise to the phenotype....

sometimes a heterozygote might have a phenotype that is more pronounced or better adapted than that of either homozygote...

Genetic basis of heterosis. Dominance hypothesis. Scenario A. Fewer genes are under-expressed in the homozygous individual. Gene expression in the offspring is equal to the expression of the fittest parent. Overdominance hypothesis. Scenario B. Over-expression of certain genes in the heterozygous offspring. (The size of the circle depicts the expression level of gene A)

The dominance hypothesis attributes the superiority of hybrids to the suppression of undesirable recessive alleles from one parent by dominant alleles from the other. It attributes the poor performance of inbred strains to loss of genetic diversity

The overdominance hypothesis attributes to heterozygote advantage the survival of many alleles that are recessive and harmful in homozygotes. It attributes the poor performance of inbred strains to a high percentage of these harmful recessives.

Often, the advantages and disadvantages conveyed are rather complicated, because more than one gene may influence a given trait or morph. Major genes almost always have multiple effects (pleiotropism), which can simultaneously convey separate advantageous traits and disadvantageous traits upon the same organism. In this instance, the state of the organism's environment will provide selection, with a net effect either favoring or working in opposition to the gene, until an environmentally-determined equilibrium is reached.

 

[Texicannibus]

http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2007/03/09/remote_sheep_population_resists_genetic_drift.html

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Remote_Sheep_Population_Resists_Genetic_Drift_999.html

If those dont work try searching the net for genetic drift resist....

Not all species react to inbreeding (related) the same imo and experience. One of the animals Id like to use to illustrate my point is called a blood parrot cichlid. This fish was created by man (hybrid) by crossing two closely related strains of fish together. This is not unheard of in the fish industry. Normally these hybrids exhibit genetic defects and often are incapable of creating there own offspring there fore not a new species. The fish I mention can create there own offspring.

Imo this comparison is interesting as it relates to cannabis. Often when crossing different subspecies you get a hybrid that cannot breed. Check out some things like ligers (lion and tiger anyone) ... and tigons (tigers and lions anyone)... niether of can breed and reproduce to my knowledge yet both make interesting hybrids. Cannabis if we accept that indica and sativa are subspecies seems to hybridize very well. Showing atleast imo some serious genetic integrity....

hopefully more people will chime in with there opinions.

 

[kringlarn]

Got 2 runts of 6 ss ak47 fem seeds.
Saved 1 because it managed to catch up in growth with the others.
I later discoverd it was the cherry pheno
So I got the Ak47 Runt-Cherry!

 

[kopite]

http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2007/03/09/remote_sheep_population_resists_genetic_drift.html

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Remote_Sheep_Population_Resists_Genetic_Drift_999.html

If those dont work try searching the net for genetic drift resist....

Not all species react to inbreeding (related) the same imo and experience. One of the animals Id like to use to illustrate my point is called a blood parrot cichlid. This fish was created by man (hybrid) by crossing two closely related strains of fish together. This is not unheard of in the fish industry. Normally these hybrids exhibit genetic defects and often are incapable of creating there own offspring there fore not a new species. The fish I mention can create there own offspring.

Imo this comparison is interesting as it relates to cannabis. Often when crossing different subspecies you get a hybrid that cannot breed. Check out some things like ligers (lion and tiger anyone) ... and tigons (tigers and lions anyone)... niether of can breed and reproduce to my knowledge yet both make interesting hybrids. Cannabis if we accept that indica and sativa are subspecies seems to hybridize very well. Showing atleast imo some serious genetic integrity....

hopefully more people will chime in with there opinions.

having read it, it appears to answer itself don't ya think? natural selection, harsh enviroments... a shuffling of genes... akin to what they found on galatico islands with darwins finches - microevolution

Kopite

 

[DocLeaf]

The big problem with working with small Ne numbers is the reinforcement of negative traits, look at the royal families of Europe, they intermarried amongst themselves for centuries and ended up a total mess, the Russian royals had Haemophilia issues in their branch, Kaiser Wilhelm had a shrivelled left arm and an overbite (hence the huge moustache) the Habsburgs in Austria were riddled with congenital problems.

Plants are different from people of course, but the same inbreeding issues crop up - mutants, freaks, weak individuals with no pest/disease resistance, loss of vigour, etc.

All said Lady Di was fly, like the birds in the sky,,, and she was even more in-bred than Charles Windsor is! The Spencer family date back to Early Medieval times,, with dynastic links to the Cornish/Welsh Pendragon family (among others) and the fabled King Arthur. This makes Prince William more English, Welsh, Greek, and Scottish than even the Queen is, being German. Anyhow we digress...

Such line-breeding is also common in cats and dogs,, as well as plants. A good example is GDS Angel Dust,, an in-bred variety of cannabis that has been selected for specific traits in lineage,, cannabinoid profile,, fast flowering period,, suited to SOG method,, and autoflowering male plants. While in-bred,, and one of the most homogeneous seed varieties out there,, it is still,, always possible,, to find a "specimen" plant within a packet of GDS Angel Dust. (the only b8ch is she doesnt like being cloned.. may be this be drifting .. ?)

Once out-bred,, even if along similar lines,, then it is still possible to produce exceptional offspring from IBLS that give plants with hybrid vigor again. The only anomaly lays with the one with different traits,, in the case of the Royals then the one with red hair (Harry) is pointed out,, perhaps because he was procreated by a different farther at a polo party... or something

(always use protection kids!) haha

Genetics are what ppl grow from them!

Hope this helps

 

[Texicannibus]

having read it, it appears to answer itself don't ya think? natural selection, harsh enviroments... a shuffling of genes... akin to what they found on galatico islands with darwins finches - microevolution

Kopite

How is it evolution to retain genetic diversity... seems to me had they drifted it would have been evolution.. they didnt..

Evolution
Evolution is the change in the gene pool of a population over time

 

[kopite]

http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2007/03/09/remote_sheep_population_resists_genetic_drift.html

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Remote_Sheep_Population_Resists_Genetic_Drift_999.html

If those dont work try searching the net for genetic drift resist....

Not all species react to inbreeding (related) the same imo and experience. One of the animals Id like to use to illustrate my point is called a blood parrot cichlid. This fish was created by man (hybrid) by crossing two closely related strains of fish together. This is not unheard of in the fish industry. Normally these hybrids exhibit genetic defects and often are incapable of creating there own offspring there fore not a new species. The fish I mention can create there own offspring.

Imo this comparison is interesting as it relates to cannabis. Often when crossing different subspecies you get a hybrid that cannot breed. Check out some things like ligers (lion and tiger anyone) ... and tigons (tigers and lions anyone)... niether of can breed and reproduce to my knowledge yet both make interesting hybrids. Cannabis if we accept that indica and sativa are subspecies seems to hybridize very well. Showing atleast imo some serious genetic integrity....

hopefully more people will chime in with there opinions.

How is it evolution to retain genetic diversity... seems to me had they drifted it would have been evolution.. they didnt..

I have tried to be nice/diplomatic and give you clues etc.. but funk it the answers have lied within things you yourself have put up ie cichlid, have you even read about the finches? theres many things effecting them from enviroment, a panmixic population, linkage disequilibrium, sympatric speciation... you could of got this from wiki hardly a great place but still... Adaptation is the heart and soul of evolution.

you need genetic variation for natural selection ( see polymorphism)

Kopite

 

[englishrick]

please dont go kopite

 

[DocLeaf]

We posted you some positive since then ,, so get over it. Otherwise,, good riddance

Darwin's 'theories' (not fact) including the "finches" are/were empirical in approach.. based upon his own limited observations on one island. Whilst enlightening,, like Mendel, Darwin doesn't hold all the answers to everything.

Natural selection can always be the outcome of chaos,, which is incalculable. Hence the butterfly effect ,, and the essence of fritillary.

Hope this helps

 

[kopite]

We posted you some positive since then ,, so get over it. Otherwise,, good riddance

Darwin's 'theories' (not fact) including the "finches" are/were empirical in approach.. based upon his own limited observations on one island. Whilst enlightening,, like Mendel, Darwin doesn't hold all the answers to everything.

Hope this helps

it doesn't help shit as what I'm on about is work since Darwin numbnuts.....

 

[DocLeaf]

I thought you'd gone. lol

Please enlighten us...

 

[ROJO145]

please dont go kopite

Really,stay a least you know what a phenotype is!!Fuck the Butterfly mafia and the retardedness that follows

 

[englishrick]

^^^^what???

ive got no idea what your trying to say bro,,,

 

[indifferent]

Hmm, when I click quote on kopite's posts, I get a blank window, maybe they did something to his account?